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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1,238 - December 2, 2025 signedMINUTES OF THE 1,238h PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, December 2, 2025, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,238th Public Hearing and Regular Meetings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7 p.m. Members present: Wafa Dinaro Patrick Droze Sam Caramagno Glen Long Peter Ventura Ian Wilshaw Members absent: David Bongero Mr. Jacob Uhazie, Assistant Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. ITEM #1 PETITION 2025-10-02-17 Outback SDM Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2025- 10-02-17 submitted by DBA Outback Steakhouse requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.03 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to utilize an S.D.M. liquor license (allows a licensed business to sell beer, wine, and mixed spirit drink products in the original package for consumption off the premises) in connection with the existing restaurant operation (Outback Steakhouse) at 13010 Middle Belt Road, located at the Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie: December 2, 2025 32056 southeast corner of Middle Belt Road and Industrial Drive in the northwest % of Section 25. Good evening. Mr. Chair. This request is by Outback Steakhouse to add a SDM liquor license which would allow for the sale of alcohol products for off purpose consumption. The reason for this request is that Outback sees this as a growing part of their business. The petition location is the Outback Steakhouse located on the east side of Middle Belt Road, just south of Schoolcraft Road and the 196 expressway. The current zoning is C-2. The adjacent properties include, to the east, the Culvers, which is zoned C-2. To the west, across Middle Belt is Applebee's, zoned C-2. To the south is the Portillo's restaurant, zoned C-2, and then to the north is the Costco property, which is also zoned C-2 in Livonia. The operation of an SDM liquor license requires special land use approval pursuant to Section 6.03 of the zoning ordinance. Outback currently operates a Class C liquor license, which permits the sale of beer, wine and spirits for consumption on premises. Section 6.03 of the zoning ordinance specifies that there are two special requirements that are minimum separation requirements for SDM licensed businesses. The first is that there shall be no other SDM licensed establishments within 500 feet of an existing SDM license business. And, you can see here, this is measured from building to building. There are two locations that are within the 500-foot buffer, Applebee's, as well as the Costco. The second requirement is at least 400 feet from any church or school. There are no churches or schools within the 400 feet buffer of this location. One note on Section 6.03 of the ordinance, does specify that the 500-foot buffer can be waived by City Council. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Yes, please. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated October 16, 2025, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time, but would like to note the following items: The subject parcel is assigned the address of #13010 Middle Belt Road. 2. The existing parcel is currently serviced by public sanitary sewer and water main, as well as private storm sewer. There is no mention of utility revisions with the proposal, so we do not believe there will be any adverse effects on the existing systems.3. Should any revisions to the utility services to the building, or any work on the right -of- way be required, the owner will need to submit drawings December 2, 2025 32057 to this Department to determine if Engineering permits will be required." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 19, 2025, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with obtaining an SDM liquor license located at the above referenced address. No objections to this proposal with the stipulations: Past liquor license requests have started at the State level, to local level through Livonia PD Investigator Sgt. Jeff Ronayne, to the Fire Prevention Division for a required Life Safety premises Liquor License inspection to be performed." The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated October 27, 2025, which reads as follows: "We have reviewed the plans submitted by OBA Outback Steakhouse requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.03 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to utilize an SOM liquor license (allows a licensed business to sell beer, wine and mixed spirit drink products in the original package for consumption off the premises) in connection with the existing restaurant operation (Outback Steakhouse) at 13010 Middlebelt Road, located at the Southeast corner of Middlebelt Road and Industrial Drive in the Northwest% of Section 25. The review of the plans has determined that the request does not comply with prior separation requirement guidelines. The proposed establishment is inside the separation requirement distance of at least five hundred feet (500) feet from any existing SOM liquor licensed establishment. Applebee's, located at 13301 Middlebelt, currently has Class C and SOM liquor licenses and is 337' from the Outback Steakhouse. Costco, located at 13700 Middlebelt, currently has an SOM liquor license and is 455 feet from the Outback Steakhouse. We would recommend that the Planning Department and City Council consider maintaining the separation requirement guidelines. It is our opinion that these guidelines are good for local establishment businesses and maintains Livonia's family atmosphere." The letter is signed by Jeffery Ronayne. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated November 7, 2025, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above referenced Petition has been reviewed. This department has no objections to this Petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Alright, thank you. Mr. Uhazie. Is there any questions for our planning staff? Mr. Ventura: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Ventura: Mr. Uhazie: December 2, 2025 32058 Jacob, you mentioned Applebee's. Are they operating as in a way that (inaudible)? I believe, they already have the SDM license, so I'm assuming they already offer the to go liquor service. They do? They have the license. I assume it's actually offered there, but I'm not familiar with their business enough to know, but they have that option. Mr. Ventura: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Ventura. Any other questions for staff? If not, our petitioner, I believe, is in the audience. Feel free to come forward to our podium. We'll ask that you start with your name and address for our record. Good evening. David Franchock, the owner and operator of the Outback steakhouse on Middle Belt Road, 30...1 gotta be honest with you, I forget the number. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes. 13010, very good. Donnie Thompson, joint venture partner for Outback Steakhouse here in Michigan, overseeing the location in Livonia as well. Mr. Wilshaw: You said Thompson is your last name? Mr. Thompson: Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Thompson. Very good. Thank you. Good evening. Evening, gentlemen, what would you like to tell us about your request? Mr. Thompson: Yeah, I think for the request overall, for us, as we previously had mentioned when we had the opportunity in the prehearing, a very small portion of our business, but it is an offering that we see that could keep us on par with similar businesses operating within the City of Livonia. The majority of our other locations in the State of Michigan operate under the same license and have the ability to do so, and we like to be able to participate in that as well in Livonia. Not much more to add, we sell beverages off premise now under our current license that are not in this like the six-pack form or the bottle of wine form, we would just like to be able to expand that offering to our guests, and that's simply why we're here today. December 2, 2025 32059 Mr. Wilshaw: All right, straightforward enough. Let's see if we have any questions for you. Is there any questions for them? Ms. Dinaro: Can you elaborate on what kind of offerings you'll have and tell us a little bit about how you ensure that you're not selling to anybody that's underage. And third question, actually, do you sell through third party apps as well? Mr. Thompson: So, the first question in regard to offerings, they would be very few, actually. So, six packs of beer, pretty much domestic, Bud Light, et cetera. Bottle of wine, I think you know, one red, one white, one sparkling, very simplistic, and then six packs of seltzer in this regard. That would be about it, and that would be consistent across the brand as well. Could you remind me of the second question? Ms. Dinaro: ID checks. Mr. Thompson: Yeah, so, and I'll answer that question in conjunction with the third -party services like Uber Eats, door, dash, etc. The ID function would be exactly the same as it would be if someone sat at the bar before we handed anybody a beer or a beverage or at the car side. We would ask for their ID, validate that they were over 21 years old, and follow that exact same process. It would not be offered via third party, DoorDash, Uber Eats, etc. This is only our in-house...got to call the phone or kind of click through on our website to order it. Ms. Dinaro: Thank you. Mr. Thompson: Absolutely. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Ms. Dinaro. Any other questions for our petitioner? Mr. Ventura: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So how does it work when somebody wants to buy alcohol? When they place the order either online or on the phone, they show up at one of those designated parking spaces you have surrounding the restaurant, do they leave their car there and go in and present themselves to somebody in the restaurant, where they then validate where their ID is then examined and validated, or does somebody from the restaurant leave the restaurant and bring it to the car at the curb? Mr. Franchock: Our protocol is that they stay in their car. It's curbside service, and then one of my employees would come outside and go to the Mr. Ventura: December 2, 2025 32060 car, get their name, ask them for the order. If that order does have alcohol attached to it, which my employee would already know, they would then validate the ID. Once the ID is validated, they would then go in, get the order, bring the order out, and exchange payment. So, we're creating a situation where an underaged person with a driver's license would arrive at the curb and some underage person that's working for you, that is just running packages back and forth, can go out and see their buddy there and give them a wink and say, yeah, you passed, and hand them the liquor and the food, and nobody is the wiser, and your employee goes back inside, nobody inside is any wiser and so now we've sold food and alcohol to somebody driving a car. Mr. Frankchock: Theoretically, that could happen, but that could happen on any platform, right? Someone could come into my bar and sit at my bar and their buddies bartend and give them the wink, and they give them a drink. I mean, that's my job. That's my responsibility, to make sure that we are doing proper protocol for ID'ing and making sure that everyone that buys alcohol on my property is of age, and that is something that is heavily monitored in my building. There is no...we do not serve underage on any level. Mr. Ventura: So, how do you propose to monitor at the curb? I understand, when you go into a bar, you've got a bartender there who is not a teenager, it's an experienced person. How do you police the people that are doing these trips in and out of the store? Mr. Thompson: Yeah, great question. Mr. Ventura, I think the process is exactly the same. Anybody in that position, just like in the bartender position, would be of the legal age to serve alcohol, they would follow, as David mentioned, the exact same protocol as we would in house in the restaurant by validating that the person is of age, using their ID before any form of alcohol was to be served. In addition to that, all orders containing alcohol are explicitly labeled that this order contains alcohol, as you know, and that's just from our side, more of a training and coaching thing. So, it's high visibility. It's yellow. It's very obvious, you know, much more so than probably even sitting at the bar, right? We make it very, very obvious thatt it contains alcohol. Again, as David mentioned, same exact protocol, right? Identification is provided before any anything is served to any guest. And that'd be consistent, you know, with how we process any order. Mr. Ventura: Mr. Thompson: Mr. Ventura: Mr. Franchock: Mr. Thompson: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Droze: Mr. Thompson: Mr. Droze: December 2, 2025 32061 Did I understand you'd say that the people that are bringing the products to the car are of drinking age? I didn't say they're of drinking age. They're of legal age to serve. The age to serve is 18. So, they're all at least 18 years old. But any liquor that would come through my to go room anyway, would be monitored by a manager anyway, you know, kind of as a second pair of eyes. It's not just...we don't really sell that much alcohol to go. So, when we do, you know, it's like I got a drink to go. It's heavily monitored. Heavily monitored. Okay, well, you can hear my reservation about serving drinks and cars and that drinking and driving as well, don't go together. So this is a concern of mine. Yeah, I could understand. I could appreciate that the...that's a whole different...so the drinks are all sealed. Everything's sealed. So, when it gets served, it's sealed. So, I could see that someone buys a drink and are they going to start drinking it in the car? Everything's sealed. So, when it leaves our building, it's sealed. It would be no different, Mr. Ventura, as you know, than if we went to Costco and got a six pack of beer be treated just as such. The I guess I would just add the intention and the idea of this license for us is to, you know, long day of work for some of our patrons who come into our business, maybe they would like to enjoy an ice-cold beer when they get home, they already replacing dinner with outback. We're able to have that. It makes Outback a one stop shop instead of the additional stop on the way home. It's about convenience for the guests. As David mentioned, its a very small mix. He has a very busy to go business. He has a very slow, off premise alcohol mix currently from the cocktails that we do serve versus the prepackaged liquors we're proposing to be able to provide today. Thank you. Mr. Ventura. Any other questions for the petitioner? How long has Outback as a business been offering this service? Maybe, if it's more of a local thing, I guess... The brand? No, the option to buy or get, basically alcohol. Mr. Thompson: This is pretty much a byproduct. I mean, this, I really want to say, Yeah, coming out of 2020, consistent with the rest of the industry. Mr. Droze: Mr. Franchock: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Franchock: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Franchock: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Thompson: December 2, 2025 32062 Okay. When restaurants were coming out of COVID, they had to find other ways to make money. So, they tried to channel every avenue they could, essentially, and you know, this was just convenience really, you know, like, instead of, like he said, making a couple stops, you pick up food, then you stop at the 7- 11 to grab some drinks, you can get it all in one spot and be about your way, and then, you know, grow some revenue. Thank you Thank you, Mr. Droze. Any other questions for the petitioner? So, what are your hours for operation at the Outback? We operate Monday through Saturday, 11 in the morning to 10 at night, and then Sunday, from 11 in the morning to nine at night. Okay, and you mentioned carry out orders. How many carry out orders do you do a night? That could vary. It's about 30% of my sales. I could give you a dollar amount. I don't know that I could give you an amount of actual orders. I would say my dollar amount could be about $5,000 give or take, depending on the day, anywhere from $2,000 to $5,000. Something like that. So, $5,000...what's the average? What's the average sale? Is it a $100 sale? I think we could better answer this question by saying, on any given day, we sell on the very low end, 10 orders out of the to go room, and on the very high end, around 150. Mr. Franchock: Yeah, that's fair. I mean, 10 is low. I Mr. Thompson: You know, on Saturday, there was a lot of snow we might have, you know, had a lot less people frequenting our to go service. Mr. Caramagno: What percentage do you think of those...let's just split the difference. Let's just say there's 60 a night. How many are going to have alcohol associated December 2, 2025 32063 Mr. Franchock: Well, that, that question is a lot simpler than how many orders come out of there. I mean, if I sell a handful of to go drinks, alcoholic drinks a day, it's a lot. It's not it's not really that common. But right now, we're only selling a couple of our featured drinks. We're selling, you know, a margarita. We have a martini that we're selling. It's a couple of featured drinks that get made there in mason jars, and then they're sealed. You know, I might sell a handful of those a night. It's not really anything that's making or breaking me. Mr. Thompson: So out of 60, you might sell five on the high side, two on the low side. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, good. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you. Any other questions for the petitioner? This is a question that we may have normally asked our police department, but it wasn't in the report that they gave us. You've been in business at this location for quite a long time now, in Livonia, and been very successful. Have you ever had any liquor code violations under selling or any sting operations? Mr. Franchock: Unfortunately, I took over the store about a year and a half ago, give or take. Prior to me coming into the store, there were, yes, and that might be why the police department has their reservations about it. There were, yeah, there were some issues with sting operations, and we did have to deal with some stuff. I assure you, nothing like that has even remotely close to happen under my reign. Like I said, I take it very seriously. And when it did happen prior to me, all parties involved were terminated. You know, it was handled accordingly. So, you know, if they're going to hold that over our head, I mean, you know, like I said, that was going on a year and six, seven months ago. Mr. Wilshaw: I appreciate your honesty. You know, like you said, this particular business has been there for quite a while now. So, it's inevitable that something like this might happen, and if the police department had enough concern over your operation, your liquor license, it probably would be suspended at this point, or if it was an issue. So, I think the fact that you're operating and that you're not having any violations in the last year and a half, that you've been owning it, you know, says something about how you're operating your business. So, I do appreciate the honesty, though, is there any other questions for the petitioner? If not, I'll go to the audience. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on December 2, 2025 32064 this item? No one launching out of their chair. Anything else that you'd like to tell us before we make our decision? Mr. Thompson: No, I don't think we have anything further to add. I think we were able to articulate, you know, what we're trying to accomplish here. And I hope we answered your questions to the best of our ability, and that's it. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Well, I appreciate you being here. Let's see what happens. I'm going to go to my colleagues, and I'll close the public hearing, and a motion will be in order. On a motion by Long, seconded by Dinaro, and adopted, it was #12-45-2025 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on December 2, 2025, on Petition 2025-10-02-17 submitted by DBA Outback Steakhouse requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.03 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to utilize an S.D.M. liquor license (allows a licensed business to sell beer, wine, and mixed spirit drink products in the original package for consumption off the premises) in connection with the existing restaurant operation (Outback Steakhouse) at 13010 Middlebelt Road, located at the southeast corner of Middlebelt Road and Industrial Drive in the northwest ' of Section 25, be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That this approval is subject to City Council waiving the 500- foot separation requirement between SDM-licensed establishments. 2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use. 3. That the use of an SDM liquor license will complement the existing use of the subject property and will provide an additional service to customers. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: NAYS: ABSENT: ABSTAIN: December 2, 2025 32065 Dinaro, Long, Caramagno, Wilshaw Ventura, Droze Bongero None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #2 PETITION 2025-10-02-18 Oil Change Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2025- 10-02-18 submitted by Charara Property LLC, requesting waiver use approval under Sections 3.11 and Section 6.06 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate an oil change establishment in connection with a previously approved coin - operated self -serve car wash at 38400 Joy Road, located at the northwest corner of Joy Road and Hix Road in the southwest' of Section 31. Mr. Uhazie: The petitioner is seeking waiver -use approval to add oil change bays, in addition to the coin operated car wash. The location, as mentioned, is in the northwest corner of Joy and Hicks. The parcel is 40,000 square feet and has 200 feet of frontage along Joy Road and 200 feet of frontage along Hicks Road. The car wash portion is an existing car wash that was built in 1985 that has six self-service car wash bays. The building was modified to add two interior bays that have been used as storage since then. Recently, the building was purchased and is under new management, and with this new operation, they intend to use the two additional bays for oil change services. The existing zoning is C-2. Surrounding the property to the north and west is N1 Neighborhood. East across Hix Road are two properties. One property is the Coffee and Cream Pastry Shop, which is also zoned C-2 and a residential property zoned N1. To the south of the petition site is the City of Westland, and it's a commercial property with a party store, P & J Party Store. Under C-2, the zoning ordinance, treats car washes and automobile repair stations as a waiver use approval. As I mentioned, they already have a waiver for the car wash use, this is for the addition of the oil change services. Another requirement of the C-2 district is to have a wall separation between commercial and residential which there is an existing brick wall separating the petition site from the adjacent residential properties. The site plan shows 12 vacuums located on the site, six in the front and six in the rear. Those are Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie: December 2, 2025 32066 self -serve vacuum stations. The elevations show no changes to the existing facade. The facade includes a brick chimney with limestone cap, asphalt roof shingles, gable siding made of vinyl, dormers with shaker siding with bronze frame windows and the walls are red brick over CMU block. There is existing landscaping on site that includes shrubs, evergreen trees and ewes. Auto wash establishments are required to have 20 parking spaces in the zoning ordinance. Auto repair facilities are required to have two parking spaces for each repair bay, plus one per employee. The zoning ordinance would require at least 25 spaces for an auto wash and oil change facility. The site plan shows 16 striped parking spaces. They are single striped in the site plan. We do not count the bays as official parking spaces, just to note that. There are six bays for parking, and then the two oil change bays. City Council can modify the numerical requirements for off street parking based on evidence that another standard would be reasonable based on the level of current or future employment and/or current or future customer traffic. No stormwater plans were submitted, but there are no proposed changes to the stormwater management system. No photometric plan was submitted, but the petitioner has stated that they don't plan to change any of the lighting as well. Currently, the site does not have a dumpster location. The petitioner is adding a dumpster location shown here in the northwest corner of the property. The dumpster is required to be closed on three sides with sturdy material matching the building, as well as sturdy material that can close and there was no sign package, but anything in excess of the zoning ordinance would be required ZBA approval, but no changes are proposed for signage, as far as I know, With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Yes, please. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated October 21, 2025, which reads as follows: In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time, but would like to note the following items: 1. The subject parcel is assigned the address of #38400 Joy Road. Should additional addresses be needed, the Owner will need to contact this Department once approvals have been obtained. 2. The existing parcel is currently serviced by public sanitary sewer, storm sewer and water main. Utility information has not been submitted with the drawings, but we do not believe there will be any adverse effects from the proposed project. 3. The renovated site will be required to comply with the latest version of the Wayne December 2, 2025 32067 County Storm Water Ordinance regarding water quality, and possibly detention. 4. Pin addition to permits from the City of Livonia, proposed work in the Joy Road right -of- way will require permits from the Wayne County Department of Public Service.." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 13, 2025, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to modify a commercial building on the property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal. A further detailed plan review will take place when this division receives an official plan set." The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated October 21, 2025, which reads as follows: `1 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Paul Walters, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated April 21, 2025, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced Petition has been reviewed. This Department has no further objections to this Petition. 1. The petitioner's proposal is a change in use. This would require that the proposed space conform to all current barrier -free codes, building codes, and all mechanical codes and standards. This will be addressed further during the plan review if this project moves forward. 2. All signage shall be conforming. A variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals would be required for any non- conforming signage." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Alright. Thank you. Mr. Uhazie. Is there any questions for planning staff? Mr. Droze: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Ventura: Thank you. Mr. Uhazie, the provided site plan also notes, in addition to the dumpster, that there's a proposed shed that is going to be in the back. Is there any information on that in terms of materials? We do not have any additional information on that. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Mr. Droze, any other questions for staff? Jacob, they show a significant amount of area is landscaping. Do the plantings that are going to be there generally conform with what we require in the city? Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Wilshaw: December 2, 2025 32068 Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Ventura. Any other questions? If not, our petitioners in the audience feel free to come forward to our podium again. We'll ask you start with your name and address so we know who we're talking with. Good evening. Sam Charara, 38400, Joy Road, Livonia, MI. Hassan. Charara, 38400 Joy Road, Livonia, MI. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Wilshaw: Ms. Dinaro: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. H. Charara: Mr. S. Charara: Ms. Dinaro: Good evening, gentlemen, and what would you like to tell us about your request to add oil change to this location? It's been there. I think it'd be great for the neighborhood. I mean, I wish I can get all the residents that have came by the past few days complimenting how nice this place has come along. And I think it was, I mean, it's changed. It's cleaned up pretty well. And I think it'd be great for the neighborhood. Okay, thank you. Mr. Charara. Any questions for our petitioner? We'll go with Ms. Dinaro first. So, can you walk us through all of the changes that you've already done to the to the space and what you intend on doing? Well, there's really not much more to do. We've done the doors, the paneling on the walls, the ceiling in the bays, the roof, the siding. We've done a lot of concrete work. We're doing the vacuum islands currently, and I think we're done As far as the shed. When we do plan on building that, it will be the same brick as the building, same material. That will propose drawings that he just...the guy that drew it for us, just kind of got excited and put that in there. And I think he's just, he's just a little moving a little too fast here. And then signage as well. We haven't got to that point yet, and we will have a sign company apply for signs and meet the codes. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: All set, Ms. Dinaro? Okay, who's next? Mr. Droze. Mr. Droze: December 2, 2025 32069 Picking up on a little bit on Ms. Dinaro's questions about what's been done, the photos that we have show brick that's going to be at the new vacuum locations. Could you maybe explain what the finished product will look like, regard to that? Mr. S. Charara: Well, the dumpster, it will be three sides... Mr. Droze: No, I'm sorry, the vacuum stations. The ones fronting Joy Road, you know, because it's...l'm looking at it and... Mr. S. Charara: Yeah, we added columns and roofs. I have a better picture on my phone. The roofs are actually on now. The way they were, I mean, they were just pretty ugly looking. I mean, that's what's catching everybody's eyes. Mr. H. Charara: It's a canopy. That's okay, yeah, instead of a light pole hanging in these vacuums there and trash. I mean, just did just look to they just look disgusting. Mr. Droze: The old vacuums, I think had lighting on them. Is there going to be lighting as part of that canopy structure? Mr. S. Charara: Well, the lights are going to be there, but it's going to be inside the canopy. It's not going to be hanging the way it was. It was just... Mr. H. Charara: Yeah, pole with lights, yeah, hanging off of it. Now the lights will be actually mounted to the ceiling of the canopy. Mr. Droze: Okay, and then the actual vacuums. Are those just going to be standard? Are they going to have lighting on them? Mr. S. Charara: No, they're standard vacuums, but we are replacing them with new ones. Mr. Droze: Okay. Some of the ones that we see, I'll say they're a little vibrant, having lights on them. Mr. S. Charara: No, these are the stainless steel ones. Okay, we're not getting all bright and fancy, but we did with the islands. Mr. Droze: I guess I'll just flag one thing for my review. I don't know if this matters or not, but those are pretty close to the road, and I don't know if that is...l'm just wondering if there needs to be some sort of variance, because I think that's within the front setback. Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Droze: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Ventura: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Ventura: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Ventura: December 2, 2025 32070 But they were always there. Understood. I guess ...it just It looks like they're about 10 feet off, and I think it's supposed to be a 15-foot setback, so they're already there, so I just might maybe elevate that. Would have preferred to have seen what they would look like before they're constructed personally. Understand they're already in motion, at least you're using brick and from what you're telling me, you're not going to have any sort of, you know, LED lights. No, no. Part of that is that it is an existing car wash that was, you know, ...I don't want to say grandfather didn't, but it has, hasn't improved existing use with that use. So they are allowed to operate with this now, as long as they followed the building codes in the building department, as far as those are concerned, that's more of their realm. So, I understand that we're actually kind of reviewing more of the, basically the oil change portion understood. Okay, all right, that helps. Thank you. Very good. Thank you. Mr. Droze. Any other questions for the petitioner? Is the oil change portion of your new operation going to be similar to one of the ones like we see along the road, Valvoline, or one of these others, where you come in and you kind of wait in a little line and you get called in and just a drive through? Correct, yes, just a drive through. So, there's really...you're really not...it's not a situation where I could drive over there and drop off my car, and you drive it in? No, it's not that. Employees are not allowed in vehicles. So, it's just like a Valvoline? Mr. S. Charara: Yes, correct. It's a 10-15-minute oil change. Mr. Ventura: In my experience, when I go to the oil change place, they've got a stacking lane, a double stacking lane. And I don't think I've ever sat through more than three or four cars, but you could have six cars waiting to get through. How do you propose to manage that December 2, 2025 32071 stacking on your site and not obstruct the entrances to the car washes on either side, I think pylons or something out there to indicate to people where you want them to stack up to get in. Mr. S. Charara: We'll definitely use cones. Yes, pylons will definitely use those. We'll take we'll bring those out if we have to. But that's it. That's a good suggestion. Yeah. Mr. H. Charara: We can even stripe the parking lot if it's needed. Mr. Ventura: I'm thinking, if you want some kind of a visual cue when somebody pulls in there that they know where to go for the oil change. Mr. H. Charara: Correct. Mr. Ventura: Last question, just a point of interest. Do you guys recycle the water that you wash cars with? Mr. S. Charara: No. Mr. Ventura: Okay, so it's one and done. Mr. S. Charara: It's fresh water. Yeah. Mr. Ventura: Okay, all right. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Ventura. Any other questions for the petitioner? Mr. Caramagno: A couple questions for you in line with Pete's question. Stacking for the oil change, are you gonna be able to stack from the Joy road side or are you gonna stack coming in from the back side? Mr. S. Charara: The back. Mr. Caramagno: The back. Okay, there'll be a sign or something indicates that? Mr. H. Charara: Correct. Yes. Mr. Caramagno: Okay. Mr. H. Charara: On the front of the building, there'll be an exit sign that's on the front of the oil change side, between the doors that will direct customers that this is exit. Mr. Caramagno: One way entrance, one way exit. December 2, 2025 32072 Mr. S. Charara: Correct. Same with the car wash bays. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, very good. What are your hours now with the car wash, what were they? What will they be, and what will the oil change hours? Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. S. Charara: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. S. Charara: We don't know what the car wash hours are. We just opened last week, opened backup last week, and oil change will be from eight to seven. Okay, so the car wash, you can come and wash your car at midnight if you want to? Correct. We don't know,depending on time and lighting and the cost of keeping it open late, we don't know what it's going to do there yet. Okay, have you heard of any complaints from anybody regarding the car wash in the past? We had some neighbors actually telling us to get the lights on because they're sick of hearing cars running on the other side of the wall, you know, about an hour or so. They say it happens all the time. So, they want these lights on. They started turning lights on, and we turn them off at about 11. I just don't want to disturb the neighbors, and I just want to get to meet all the neighbors first before we start turning these lights on. Mr. Caramagno: You've done some nice work. I came by, and it's impressive with what you've done already, and obviously an improvement to the property. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Caramagno. Any other questions? On the question of recycling of water. I assume...obviously, your oil is going to be collected into some sort of a container. How is that disposed of? Mr. S. Charara: They come in once every month or once every two weeks, depending on the volume, and they take that oil, they remove it off the site. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, so you're not going to be putting it in a container by the dumpster. December 2, 2025 32073 Mr. S. Charara: No, no, no. Okay, okay. All right, everything's got to stay contained inside the building. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, very good, and then they pump it out from there. Mr. S. Charara: Yeah, correct. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, makes sense. All right, let me see if there's anybody else in the audience wishing to speak on this item. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this decision? Again, I don't see anybody jumping up on this one. Anything else that you'd like to tell us? Mr. S. Charara: That was it. Thanks for the opportunity here in Livonia. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, very good. Any other questions for the petitioner? Think we've covered everything. I'm going to close the public hearing, and a motion would be in order. On a motion by Dinaro, seconded by Droze, and unanimously adopted, it was #12-46-2025 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on December 2, 2025, on Petition 2025-10-02-18 submitted by Charara Property LLC, requesting waiver use approval under Sections 3.11 and Section 6.06 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate an oil change establishment in connection with a previously approved coin -operated self -serve car wash at 38400 Joy Road, located at the northwest corner of Joy Road and Hix Road in the southwest'/4 of Section 31., be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That the Site Plan is hereby approved and shall be adhered to. 2. The hours of operation shall be limited to the following: Monday through Saturday from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. and Sunday from 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. 3. All parking spaces, except the required handicapped spaces, shall be doubled striped at ten feet (10') wide by twenty feet (20') in length as required. 4. That the three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be constructed out of building materials that shall complement that of the building. The enclosure gates shall be of solid December 2, 2025 32074 panel steel construction or durable, long-lasting solid panel fiberglass. The trash dumpster area shall be maintained and, when not in use, closed at all times. 5. That there shall be no outdoor storage of auto parts, equipment, scrap material, waste petroleum products, junked, unlicensed or inoperable vehicles, or other similar items in connection with this operation, and the overhead doors, when not in use for vehicles entering or exiting the service facility, shall always be closed. 6. All light fixtures shall not exceed a height of twenty feet (20') and shall be aimed and shielded to minimize stray light trespassing across property lines and glaring onto adjacent roadways. All exterior lights shall be turned off or dimmed between 8:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. That the site's landscaping shall be permanently maintained in a healthy condition. 8. Only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. 9. No LED light band or exposed neon shall be permitted on this site, including, but not limited to, the building or around the windows. 10. The car wash bay lights shall be shut off when closed. 11. Unless approved by the Inspection Department, any type of exterior advertising, such as promotional flags, streamers, or sponsor vehicles designed to attract the attention of passing motorists, shall be prohibited. 12. The plans referenced in this approving resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department with the building permit application(s); and 13. Per Section 13.13 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, this approval is valid for one (1) year from the date of approval by the City Council. Unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void after the one (1) year period. December 2, 2025 32075 FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #3 MCKENNA ASSOCIATES, LIVONIA VISION 21 MASTER PLAN AMENDMENT Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, McKenna and Associates presenting the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan Amendment. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Caramagno, we'll start with you. Mr. Uhazie. I know we do have McKenna staff in the audience as well, but we'll start with you. Mr. Uhazie: I'll introduce Donovan from McKenna. He is helping us with our MSHDA funded update to our Master Plan focused on housing. With that, he'll have a brief presentation of showing where we're at and how far we've come. Mr. Wilshaw: Very good. Thank you. Donovan Smith, McKenna and Associates. Thank you. Good afternoon and thank you for allowing me to present to you this evening. I've been working with staff in Livonia for probably the better part of a year working through this Master Plan Amendment, and we are kind of approaching the final phase, the last leg of this work, and I'm very excited to be here to present this information to you and kind of give you an update on where we are, what some of our next steps are, and just some background on what we've been working on over the past year. Next slide. So, I'll start here. This is an amendment to your 2021 Livonia Master Plan and with that being said, that plan has four books, and what we are proposing is book five. The previous books and that plan all relate to various aspects of the content of that plan. So, this book five, we titled How to Make Housing Sustainable, and that came out of conversation with the steering committee, and that is the kind of overall arching umbrella that we are using to drive the content related to this plan. So next slide. So, briefly, I'll just kind of give some background that you may already be aware of, but I think it's always good context at context as it relates to MSHDA. I'll go December 2, 2025 32076 over the project itself, some of the scheduling and next steps, and then I'II give an opportunity if you have questions for me, and then we will kind of discuss what we will be doing over the next couple months. All right, so as indicated, this is a MSHDA Housing Readiness Grant funded program where the organization did allocate $45,000 to Livonia to update or amend their Master Plan. So, Livonia was awarded that, I believe, early summer 2024, and it's a two-year grant. So, we're approaching the kind of two-year mark, and that's kind of why you're starting to see us here. We're at that point where we're able to advance this document. The objective of that grant was to make amendments and changes to either zoning ordinance or the master plan in support of strategies, goals and objectives for housing diversity, improved housing stock and housing affordability. So, I apologize. I'm going to be looking probably from here. It's just a little easier to see So, the Livonia 21 plan was a great plan. We did support working with Livonia to develop that plan, but what we wanted to do with this amendment is to add to it. The plan did a great job of covering a lot of topics related to future land use and land use planning. It did have some references to housing. But what this does, it kind of takes those portions and blows it up and provides a lot more detail and context. So, we are kind of titling it soft title book five. This is the Livonia 26 amendment, and there are five main portions of this document. So, when you see it, I just want to give a little background on what you'll be looking at. So most master plans, almost all the plans include demographics. So, your 2021 plan had 2016 demographics, and this amendment updates your demographics. So, you have, I believe its 2023 and I believe there's some 2024 data in there as well. It goes into a lot more detail about the housing data, and I'll go into more detail later on, but it goes into a lot more detail in presenting that data and then providing insight and recommendations on what to do with that data. The plan also provides a Housing Strategy, which we'll go over this evening, that gives a high-level overview of the scope of how we're aiming to address housing in Livonia. It goes into additional goals and objectives building on your 21 plan, and then it closes with an implementation plan. So that's the kind of overall structure of this amendment. So, when we look at the data that is provided in this version, it does give your kind of standard demographic data, such as population, households, age distribution, income, employment sectors and education. But then it goes a little further, and provides data points on housing, specifically in Livonia. So that goes as far as providing housing affordability, household education and its relationship to income, defining and providing background around cost burden, households and rentership, home values over time, rental and December 2, 2025 32077 home values and prices, housing tenure, occupant and occupancy, housing supply and demand and then there are references to subsidized housing and what that currently looks like in the City of Livonia. So, when we look at strategies, this is a very high level approach on what the objective of this amendment is seeking to accomplish. So, with that, the strategy we determined or supports a blend of middle housing opportunities, which is the kind of core of what the State of Michigan and MSHDA has been trying to push with this grant, is how can we encourage middle housing typologies and building styles within our current existing framework? So just a little context, when it comes to middle housing, it's easy to describe as when planning and development really started taking off around the country, we got really good at building single family homes and large apartment buildings, but everything in between was a kind of hit or miss. So, in Michigan, you don't have a lot of duplexes all the way up to your kind of small apartment buildings, up to 10 units. So the kind of core of what this process does is says, hey, there is an opportunity to allow these middle forms of housing, what does that look like? In communities such as Livonia, when you have a lot of built environment, and you don't have a lot of vacant land, you kind of have to be creative and look at how you can utilize your existing land and existing opportunities to bring a blend of uses such as town homes, single family, small apartments, as well as commercial uses into your housing fabric. So, with that, we looked at various vacant sites across Livonia. We use those to conceptualize what mixed housing developments could look like, and then we use those to kind of frame some of the goals and objectives and ways we can incorporate that into long range planning for housing. In addition, communities were really good with having single family districts. And then later, community started to allow mixed use districts. So. mixed use districts were defined as where you have a single building that may have commercial and retail and first floor and residential above, which is kind of your standard mixed -use framework. And that got really popular mid 2000s. Whereas today, what planning trends and practices are starting to tell us is there are additional opportunities to allow mixed residential developments that a lot of communities have not taken advantage of. So, what that is, is you may see a town home development that may have 20, 50 town homes. You may have a single-family subdivision that has, you know, 50 single family homes. But what we don't see a lot of today is mixed residential developments where you have a blend of single-family homes, town homes, apartment style, cottage courts, where you have this multi blend of residential uses on one development, opposed December 2, 2025 32078 from just having one singular type. What that does is, by incorporating those mixed uses, you allow additional levels of income that can move into these spaces. So, whether a single family home is more affordable, or an apartment or a town home, by incorporating all these different residential types into one area, you get a mix of incomes, you get a mix of different housing types, and it creates more of a blend of people and uses. So that is kind of the overarching goal of introducing middle housing types into communities, and some of the benefits that you can see from those. So in April of this year, I believe it was, yep, April of'25 we did host a very successful open house. We had about 50 individuals that participated, and through that process, we were able to share some of the goals and objectives that we had started to craft with the steering committee very early on, as well as looking at some of the existing goals and priorities that were in your 2021 plan. We got a lot of input for those we did an asset and opportunities or a SWOT analysis where residents were able to comment on the strengths, opportunities, weaknesses and threats of various aspects of Livonia housing related and non - housing related as well as, I believe it's on the next slide. Yep, the concepts that we also developed. So we looked at several sites I just presented two this evening. We looked at the Laurel Park area as well as the former Sears site. We use those as the kind of base points to develop these conceptual frameworks on what developments can look like when you incorporate a blend of residential uses and commercial uses, as well as anchor tenants and things like that. So, these concepts were shared with the public during that engagement activity. They were able to get feedback. And I think when we get to the next slide, I'll have some for you. Yep, we can go back though, I want to finish. So, with this, we looked at incorporating town homes, small scale apartments. So these are apartments that can go up to 10 units or Tess. We looked at incorporating duplexes, town homes and then small anchor and retail uses within these sites to create more of a community aspect feel, highly walkable areas and areas that can blend in and fit with the existing character of the surrounding community, which was a topic that came up quite often in our conversations with the steering committee and the public. So, on the next slide, I just want to share some of the comments within the document. There are more detail, and we are working with staff to get a draft for you to start to review, but I did want to just share some of these with you. So, regarding the concept sites, I'm just turn this way a little bit. Residents were vocal about the city needing to do something with some of these vacant sites. Now, currently the city doesn't own these. We're using these as concepts to convey this is something that the city December 2, 2025 32079 is interested in, and as we start to see developments, it's an example on direction that developers can take. People did like the quality of the town homes and advocated for cottage court. So, they did like that blend of residential types. Parking and congestion did come up as a common concern. Things like parking would be addressed in that site planning process, but overall, there were some concerns that we think are valid when you look at this type of mixed development. People did like the idea of town homes smaller, such as 10-unit apartment buildings, and they did understand because we explained how we came to those conclusions with those concepts, and they did tend to receive those pretty well. They did like the envisioning activity that we developed, encouraging high walkability and a blend of uses and blending the character of that development with the surrounding community. Traffic came up several times as a potential barrier to allowing these types of uses, and then overall the feedback was generally pretty positive as it relates to those concept sites. So, we do believe that we did come up with a concept that residents generally did support, and it's a good strategy going forward to allow additional housing types without changing the character of your neighborhoods dramatically or drastically. Next slide, please. So, as it relates to the goals and objectives, so we did in that public engagement, we did collect input on some of the goals that we started to propose early on, based on your '21 plan. Your '21 plan had two sections that really spoke to the goals related to housing. There's a clear section that's just called housing that has one overarching goal and five sub objectives. And then there's another category in a different portion of plan, called Urban Design. It doesn't get into a lot of housing details, but it has some character, architectural design and layout details. So, we took those two sections, and that's what kind of started this conversation to develop what these new goals were. What your Livonia '26 plan amendment has is five new goals that we worked through the committee, the steering committee, based on the Michigan statewide housing plan, which is kind of the backbone of the MSHDA Housing Readiness Incentive Grant. So, we did use that document with all the comments we received, as well as your '21 plan to come up with these five goals. And then there are additional objectives that come out of these goals. Those goals are improving and maintaining the Livonia housing ecosystem, improving the housing stock, inclusive and generational housing, supporting home ownership and rental housing, as well as supporting housing equity. So, your previous plan kind of had one goal. We've advanced one goal to five. You had about five objectives in your previous plan, and then if you go to the next slide in this December 2, 2025 32080 new plan with your five goals, you have about 28 different objectives and strategies that the city can look at to advance various aspects of housing. So, I did just give a few of them. Again,. I wanted to just introduce these topics to you. This is part one of two meetings where I do plan on coming and speaking to you, so you can kind of have this information today. You'll get the draft, you can look at it, and then when I come back, I will actually go through all of these individually and give the opportunity for a more detailed conversation. So, just for example, some of the objectives, we did include our promoting and the development of multiple small scale, walkable commercial and service districts that serve the immediately adjacent neighborhoods, supporting a system of organized land uses to provide greater housing choices where new and redeveloped areas respect existing neighborhoods, seamlessly incorporating compatible multifamily middle housing types with detailed development and strong urban design. Increase the supply of the full spectrum of housing that is affordable and obtainable to Livonia residents. Increase the rehabilitation or preservation of the existing housing stock, redeveloping underutilized, strategic and functionally obsolete properties with mixed residential and commercial use developments. Increase the quality of rental housing, further stabilize and sustain elevated home ownership tenure and increase the amount of housing that is accessible, safe and healthy, regardless of age, disability or family size, across all neighborhoods and communities. So again, that is a portion of the goals. Again, you'll have more, and we can go into deeper conversations about those as well. The last portion of the document is the implementation plan, and this portion takes the goals, those five goals, it takes those 28 objectives, and then it puts them all on a timeline where they can be achieved in a short, medium or long-time span. It allocates responsibility, so what departments, what stakeholders are a part of that process? And then we also include a priority where we kind of took a stab at saying some items are more higher on the pecking order than others, but again, this is an opportunity for you to look at those, and you may say, this may not be as much as of a priority as you identified. You know, we might want to adjust it. So there is going to be a little bit of conversation and dialog as it relates to this portion of the plan, because this is the kind of backbone in the core of the document, and what most people will look at when they go to this document, they tend to go to this section, find what they're interested in, and then they kind of zero in. So, we will spend some time after you've had the chance to kind of digest all the information, to go through it, and that's where I would like to get input from you. Next slide, please. So, as I discussed, we are Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Droze: December 2, 2025 32081 approaching the end of this master plan amendment process. We did a lot of the concepting, the market research, the data research, and looking at your existing plan. So now we are starting to approach the adoption portion of this project. Next slide, please. Go back one. Yep, perfect. So, the Planning Commission has a very specific role in the amendment of master plans. We are kind of at the beginning of this where we are looking to get comments and feedback from you before this document goes public. So that will happen between this meeting and the next time I see you, which I believe will be January, we'll work with staff to determine that. So, we will come back in January, after you've had a chance to digest the content, we can further discuss the content, and then if there are no kind of major changes, what we will be asking at that meeting is that you recommend that the document be distributed to the public, to stakeholders, and then City Council has a role where they step in, and they have to do an approval to allow the distribution, and then it will be available to the public for 45 days. When its a new Master Plan, that window is 63 days. When it's an amendment, it's 45 days. So, it will go public for 45 days and we will return back with a public hearing where we will receive any additional comment or changes to the plan. Once that is completed, it will get we will request action to forward it to City Council, and we'll kind of talk about...there's a portion where council may or may not have to weigh in, but we'll just confirm that with staff, but we would come back with the public hearing, request action, and then we'll go through its kind of last few channels to complete the document, get its final adoption and then publication. Next slide please. So, we did provide a brief timeline. Here we are today, December 2. We're giving you this kind of...this update here between December and January is when you will have the opportunity to have your individual reads. We will return in January and request for a distribution to be allowed to be sent out. We will come back with a 45-day public comment period, and then we will come back sometime in April and start the final phases of adoption for the amendment. Next slide. That's what I have for you this evening. Thank you very much. That was a very thorough and excellent presentation to get us started with this document that you've drafted. So, let's see if there's any questions from any of my colleagues. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for coming tonight. I appreciate giving the draft to us as well to look at and kind of get the thoughts rolling about, you know, how we can support and the questions Mr. Smith: Mr. Droze: December 2, 2025 32082 that we can have tonight. So I think kind of understanding your approach and maybe what MSHDA is looking to attain, you know, I think one question I had as I reviewed the document and heard your presentation is, you know, we're planning, but is there an end goal that we're trying to attain, you know, because there's some demographic data and there's some projections in here that go 20 years out, but part of my question is as I look at this is, what are we projecting for? Is there a desire that we need to get the population to a certain amount, a little bit of like, kind of. Informing that plan, because, you know, when we have what amounts to the 28 different strategies that we have to attack, part of that might be driven a little bit on, you know, what we're trying to do. Is it more important that we try to reinvest in our housing stock and make sure that it's still competitive with the market? Or is it something where, you know, we need to be trying to find more of those missing middle opportunities. I guess, kind of without having, you know, maybe some more of the clear goals about what that 20 year projection is, it's a little hard for me to kind of, you know, pick and choose what I think are the objectives. So, I'm not sure if that's something that MSHDA is informing, you know, with this being their grant, but I'd be curious to know if there are any particular metrics that we're trying to attain with this relative to population demographics, that type of thing. Well, Off the top of my head, I could probably name a few, but what I could do is include probably a bit more detail about what some of those are. Just like I said there are changes in population that you might want to address as a goal. There are various topics, such as the affordability of rent that changes over time. Family size has been reducing, so there are various demographics that we can look at. And then try to consolidate some of those20 year goals, and we can include that, Okay, helpful. And then, from your perspective, what are potential...I guess I don't want to call them obstacles, but things that we'll have to wrestle with over the next five to 10 years to attain some of these goals. You know, I think what we've looked at is a lot of sites, a lot of big sites, right? And we know that it can be a big lift, you know, to, first of all, you don't own the property. It's going to require the right developer and the right project, and those are things that if we wait, it's going to take a long time. What things you know, as I look across the city, we don't have vacant space in residential zones, we have it in largely commercial zones, industrial. What do we need to do, potentially, on the land use perspective to drive towards some of these goals. Mr. Smith: Mr. Droze: December 2, 2025 32083 So, what the state, MEDC, what they're kind of advocating is a lot of just internal and external marketing opportunities you have for development, whether that is city owned or not. One just to get those developments or those options kind of out in the front of developers. And then I would also add some of those barriers that are consistent with Livonia, but also the State of Michigan is largely related to the aging populations. That's a barrier that everyone is starting to face. Aging populations, the age of housing, you know, every year that number goes up. So as the age of housing increases, the cost to maintain housing increases, and as those higher income individuals that are starting to age out affording the existing housing stock is going to be a barrier in the future families. As I mentioned, family size gets smaller, so you are having less married families, which means you have smaller incomes. So, a lot of higher end housing that will become available may be more challenging for newer families that are moving into Livonia. So, there are several things at least related to barriers that I think what this plan does is it just tries to get those barriers out in front so you can start to think about those things. Because of what I believe MSHDA was trying to accomplish is a lot of master plans did not go into this much detail. Historically, as it relates to housing, there was often details about community and some of the various aspects communities that cities tried to address. But when it comes to housing, specifically, a lot of master plans were silent. So, I believe what they were trying to accomplish was to get that data in front of community so they can start to have those conversations. Specifically, cost burden was a topic that came up a lot that's not in...1 haven't seen it in any master plan. And just in summary, cost burden is when you spend more than 30% of your income on housing, and then that has a lot of fallout, secondary benefits or effects on if you can maintain that housing, or if you need to find a place that is more affordable based on income and what options are available to allow that. A lot of ordinances and master plans were silent on that issue, so we did include a lot of information about cost burden, the various levels of income that define where that sliding scale of affordability is for your income bracket. And then we also provide the types of housing and the amount of housing that is available to an individual in that income bracket. So again, it's to really get a lot of that information in front of us so we can start to have those additional conversations. Thanks. And I guess maybe one other just idea or suggestion that maybe consider including in the final version is just, you know, maybe some information about, kind of, just the overall age of the housing stock in the city. I think one of the things about kind of, Mr. Smith: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Smith: December 2, 2025 32084 I'll say, the inter age suburb communities, is, you know, we built out over the span of sometimes 20 to 30 years, and all that housing is aging together, where some other communities may have a little more variation. So I think just kind of understanding the age of the housing, and understanding, like you said, as this housing does get older, its more expensive to take care of, just so we're kind of aware of that, I think both in a, you know, graphically, whether it's a bell curve, but then also, even though I think, you know, some mapping would be interesting. I know SEMCOG has that data, just so the residents of the community kind of understand, you know, just kind of the, basically, the existing condition, and you know, what our path forward looks like. Thank you. No problem. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Droze. Any other questions for our McKenna representative topic? Certainly, a lot to digest here. There's no doubt about it. And one of the things that struck me is, is there any examples of where this mixed development is working very, very well, in and around Metro Detroit that you can share with us, so we can look at it and...you can look at it on paper, on the screen here, where can you go, physically walk and look at some great examples of what we're trying to do here? That would be good to know to go look at. So that's number one. I like the idea of rehabilitation, of some of the areas where the homes are getting... not up to par anymore. I think that's a big piece of this in my mind. While I drive all over the city, I know there's areas that need some rehabilitation and brought back up to good standards. And then, of course, we talk about population, and we all know that there's a great generation out there that's aging rapidly now, and I don't think we're replacing those people as quick as they're going to go. Correct. Mr. Caramagno: So that is a concern. We talk about population, we want it to be back over X number, over 100,000. I don't even know if that's possible right now. Yeah, it's going to be a challenge, because as these older folks are starting to pass on, and that's reality. Yeah, we're not producing children as rapidly to fill these voids. So that's a big unknown variable in my mind. I don't know that I've seen that number exactly and what it looks like. Mr. Smith: Mr. Caramagno: Mr. Smith: Mr. Wilshaw: December 2, 2025 32085 Okay, there are aspects about it in the plan. I don't want to misquote the numbers, but I can double check, and then I can kind of be more specific when I come back. And that's why I said I got to digest more. But there were things just popped my head immediately that could be of concern. Thank you. No problem. Thank you. Excellent points. Thank you. Any other comments, questions? I'll just say a couple that stood out to me. I agree with Mr. Caramagno's concern about not only the size of the population, but also the aging of the population, in the sense of the average age of the community has steadily increased, as we know, over the last several decades. Each census you look at, you see that age is increasing and it's and as you say, Mr. Caramagno, it's not being replaced by a younger generation coming in or if it is, younger families are moving in with far less kids, or no kids at all. So that affects school districts. It affects housing, and what types of houses are popular and what type of land people want, you know, what they need. And so those are concerns of mine. The other thing that is something I want to look at as well, and it sort of plays off of a comment that Mr. Droe has made about the age of housing stock is, Livonia started to really build out as a suburban community back in the 1950s and in 1960s as a large city, 36 square miles compared to many of our neighboring communities. Which are maybe not quite as large. There's a lot of open farmland, and there's a lot of opportunity to build neighborhoods, subdivisions and different types of houses as each one was developed. Some of those were developed in the 50s and 60s, somewhere in the 70s, somewhere in the 80s, some 90s, and into the 2000s and what you see is, as you drive around the city, you see those varieties of different types of homes based on what was popular and that generation or that era, you know, there was 1,000 square foot bungalows were popular at one point, and the Sears catalog homes. And then you have, you know, and now you look at the most modern subdivisions that are built in our city, which there's very few opportunities for that left, but some of the smaller infill subdivisions are modern homes, which are, you know, 3,000 square foot large colonials, McMansions, as they like to call them, because that's the style that's now popular, same as we're seeing built out into the green fields, if you will, say, of Novi, South Lyon and the outer suburbs. And what happens is each of these generations get built out, these different types of homes and there's different styles. December 2, 2025 32086 There's different desires for what is considered modern or desirable by that particular community that is shopping for those homes at that time. We see, you know, houses with many bedrooms and smaller rooms was popular at one point. Now, big, open concept, you know, rooms are popular, open concept, kitchens and so on. And when a person is looking to locate into the, say, the metro Detroit area, and they're looking for a community to move to, they're going to want whatever's the flavor of the month, whatever is popular at that time, and if they don't see it available in a particular community like say Livonia, because it's fairly built out, and maybe it's built out in, say, 10, 20, 30 years, 40, 50, years ago, they're going to go elsewhere. They're going to go to the other community that has whatever that popular thing is. So, the age of the housing stock is incredibly important, not only from a maintenance perspective, but also from a marketability perspective. And I've seen a few examples. You can maybe take downtown Northville or Plymouth, where you have very old housing stock, you know, over 100 year old houses that are getting you see them getting bought, refreshed, rebuilt out, interiors stripped out, maybe the whole exteriors is redesigned as well, to modernize these Victorian and other style homes to modern standards, and those then become very desirable, and they're selling for millions of dollars. And so the question becomes, what can Livonia do as part of this plan to recognize what the age of our housing stock is, and how do we make that marketable and desirable for the current buyers of any given moment. How do we...is there incentives for redevelopment, for builders to come in and redevelop these properties, or to modernize them, or update them in some way to make them more marketable, more desirable, so that Livonia does not become a community that gets left in the dust and passed over by the new home buyers and the people moving to this area. So those are the types of things that I think about as I read through this as well, that concerned me. As far as you know, how do we keep Livonia top of the list as a community? Because it was a very desirable top of the list community for a long time, and in more recent years, I don't see that happening so much. don't see people moving to Southeast Michigan going I really want to go to Livonia. They're saying I really want to go to Novi. I really want to go to South Lyon or whatever. So, that's a concern that I think a lot of people in this, this community share. Those are just my thoughts. Anybody have anything else? If not, I think we've at least kicked off a really good conversation. Is there anyone in our audience wishing to speak on this item? I don't see anybody wishing to come forward on this so I think what's appropriate for this point, for this agenda item. It's just to receive Mr. Smith: Mr. Wilshaw: ITEM #4 Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie: December 2, 2025 32087 and file your report so far. We do appreciate you coming here and getting this conversation started. We do have a month or so to digest the information that you've given us for this draft. And again, thank you for such a thorough presentation and kind of getting our thought processes going. And I'm sure we'll have good conversations going forward, Alright. And thank you. I appreciate that. And you see me nodding my head because I've been looking at this data, and this is all stuff that I've been kind of identifying, and so it's good to hear that these are your interests, and you like to see those things. So I'm looking forward to providing those updates and getting something to you that you would like to wear proudly. So Okay, excellent. Well, thank you. If there's nothing else from any of the commissioners, I think we're all set with this item. All right, thank you for coming again tonight. Thank you. And next, we have item number four on our agenda. APPROVAL OF 2025 PLANNING COMMISSION SCHEDULE And Mr. Uhazie, this was presented to us at our study meeting. We had a chance to review it. Is there any updates or changes? No updates. But I just did want to share this with you. I know it's a little bit hard to see. I wanted to show them side by side, but I realized that'd be impossible to see. But you guys do have in your E packet the original proposed one, which is the same as we did this year. So it would be study, regular meeting, week off. At the study, we discussed the possibility of giving the petitioners more time with a week off in between. So, Stephanie was kind enough to go through and make an example of that for next year. I know you guys have kind of mentioned that you're good with it this year. But I did want to just give this as an example to show you how it would look. You know, at least through January, February. We have the full year that I'll share out with email, but this is how it would look with the week off in between the study and the public hearing in the end of the year. It ends up with, I think, one more meeting this way, but several more meetings have to be end up being like back to back, where there's not that extra week, but just to get an idea of you so you guys can compare and contrast how it might go if you...if that's something you want to pursue in the future, you know what it looks like. December 2, 2025 32088 Mr. Wilshaw: I appreciate you bringing it to our attention, because you're correct as you move those off weeks, and it's...you have to start contending with holidays and other things that cause us to not have meetings. So, that's excellent. Is there any comments from any of the commissioners on our schedule? Mr. Ventura: Maybe I missed the whole point here, but I thought the off week was going to be between the study meeting and the public hearing, which would provide the petitioners time to react to the input that they got at the study meeting and prepare whatever exhibits or make whatever modifications that they were going to make, and then come to the public hearing. As I look at January and February, the off week occurs between the public hearing and the next study. Right? Unless I missed the point. Mr. Wilshaw: So, the original schedule that was presented to us, which is similar to one that we had for this year, had the off week between the regular meeting and the study meeting, and that's the schedule that was presented to us at our study meeting last week or a couple weeks ago. What was brought up at that meeting was the idea of reversing that and having the off week between the study and the regular to give the petitioner the extra time. Mr. Ventura: So the schedule that's here does not reflect that, right? Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie has prepared a, I guess we it call it a conceptual schedule, of how that would look if we did move those off weeks in between. Mr. Ventura: Okay, but that's not this one. Okay. Mr. Wilshaw: Right. Mr. Uhazie: We're just gonna send it out. I thought it might be too much to like try and explain it through email and then have two that looked very similar, so I decided to go with this way. We'll send this out as well, but just wanted to give you a reference of... certainly, you guys can decide how you want to do it if you wanted to pursue that way. But just to keep things, since that was how it was presented at the study, I wanted to keep it consistent, so that was what was in the E packet for this week. But like I said, Stephanie was able to bring up a conceptual plan of what it would look like. And again, I know it is difficult to read, I will send that out to you, but it does kind of lay out, and it does have a very similar amount of meetings. That's the biggest difference is that there would be one more public hearing, but there would be several weeks where Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Ventura: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: ITEM #5 Mr. Caramagno, On a motion by December 2, 2025 32089 you're going...there wouldn't be a break in between to fulfill all of our needs. Clear as mud? You and I are on the same page. Okay, all right, very good. This is not that. Exactly, exactly. It's more food for thought at this point, and maybe something that we can implement for the next year's schedule, unless the commission feels they want to go forward with a whole new schedule now. But any other comments, questions? I just echo that. I appreciate putting this together. Tonight was a good example. You know, we received the site plan yesterday, and I think it worked for everybody. But, you know, sometimes our schedules are such that when that packet comes out on Friday, we might have an hour or two over the weekend that's dedicated to it. So just knowing what professionals go through to put these together, you know, I think the extra week should result in better projects that we see at the at the table here. So I appreciate you doing it, Stephanie and Jacob. I agree, and I do think it was a great suggestion that that was offered something that we hadn't necessarily thought about. And to that point, we have heard petitioners tell us, you know, to get my architect to make these plans or to make these updates take some time. I can't necessarily do it, turn that around in a week. So, I think that is a good idea to give that extra time. We may not be able to do that for 2026 but maybe going forward to future years. Any other thoughts, questions? If not do we need a motion to approve the schedule Mr. Uhazie or just receive and file. All right, we're gonna receive and file if there's no objection from anyone else, the 2026 Planning Commission schedule that was presented to us our packet. I don't see any objections, so we'll do that. APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,237th Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,237th Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held on October 28, 2025. Caramagno, seconded by Long, and unanimously adopted, it was #11-47-2025 December 2, 2025 32090 RESOLVED, That the Minutes of 1,237th Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on October 28, 2025, are hereby approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Droze, Long, Caramagno, Wilshaw NAYS: None ABSENT: Bongero ABSTAIN: Dinaro, Ventura, Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,238th Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on December 2, 2025, was adjourned at 8:34 p.m. ATTEST: Ian Wilshaw, Chairman CITY PL ° N NG COMMISSION L am C amagno, ecretary