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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1,234 - August 19, 2025 signedMINUTES OF THE 1,234th PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, August 19, 2025, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,234th Public Hearing and Regular Meetings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7 p.m. Members present: Patrick Droze David Bongero Sam Caramagno Glen Long Peter Ventura Ian Wilshaw Members absent: Wafa Dinaro Mr. Jacob Uhazie, Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. ITEM #1 PETITION 2025-07-02-15 Clean Express Car Wash Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2025- 07-02-15 submitted by Mannik & Smith Group, on behalf of Clean Express Car Wash, requesting waiver use approval under Sections 3.11 and Section 6.07 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate an Auto -Wash Establishment, at 38888 Six Mile Road, located at the N.E. corner of Fox Drive and Six. Mile Road in the S.W.' of Section 7. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Ventura. Mr. Ventura: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie: August 19, 2025 31962 My company represents the owner of this land, but not the petitioner. But for that reason, I'm going to recuse myself from the proceedings this evening. Okay, we'll let you step away from the dais. Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Now we'll go to Mr. Uhazie for background information on this petition. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, good evening. This is a request to operate an auto wash establishment located on the northeast corner of Fox Drive and Six Mile Road. The petition parcel is L shaped with approximately 207 feet of frontage on Six Mile Road and 311 feet along Fox Drive. The site is the former Buca de Beppo restaurant, which is currently vacant. The parcel size is 1.61 acres. The existing zoning of the subject site is C-2. Adjacent properties are zoned, RUF to the east, which is the cemetery with the parking in front, zoned P. To the north and west is C-1 as part of the Assisted Living Center, and across Six Mile is commercial, zoned C-4. Operating auto wash establishments are allowed as a waiver -use under Section 6.07 of the zoning ordinance. Auto wash establishments cannot be located nearer than 150 feet, as measured from any point on the property to any point of a church, public or parochial school or playground. There are neither of those within 150 feet of this property. The proposal includes removing the existing building, including the basement foundation and utilities. The existing Six Mile Road driveway would be removed and moved to from the southwest corner to the southeast corner of the property, and a second drive is shown in the northwest corner to access Fox Drive. A new 14,229 square foot auto wash building that measures 23 feet in height at its tallest and about 17 1/2 feet along the rest of the building would be constructed. The proposed building's dimensions would measure 93 feet by 153 feet. The building location will meet both the 15-foot and eight -foot minimum setback requirements. Section 6.07 requires that a building be situated no closer than 35 feet on one side of the property and eight feet to the other. The building will be approximately 60 feet from the west property line and approximately 45 feet from the east property line. The building complies with all minimum required setback regulations. Plans show three service lanes providing access to the car wash. The lanes commence along the east side of the property maneuvering in a northerly direction and then looping back south to the entrance on the north side of the building. The plan shows stacking for 21 vehicles. Each lane would have a pay station adjacent to the east side of the building, just before turning and entering into the building. Beyond the pay stations, the service lanes tapered to a single 12-foot drive aisle to manage vehicles August 19, 2025 31963 as they enter the facility. A 12-foot bypass lane is provided after the pay stations, allowing vehicles to exit the site via 24-foot drive onto Fox drive. Vehicles will exit the car wash at the south end of the building and can either turn left to exit the site or make a right onto the two way drive. This would provide access to 13 outdoor parking spaces, nine of which would have proposed outdoor vacuums. There is a second 20-foot entrance to the building on the south end. This allows access to 14 indoor vacuum spaces. There's also a drive to the east that connects to the Trinity House theater. The site plan shows single striped parking. The zoning ordinance requires at least 20 spaces for auto wash establishments. The site plan shows 13 outdoor parking stalls located on the eastern side of the building, and the floor plan shows an additional 14 parking spaces with vacuums, which are located within the building. There is a dumpster enclosure shown in the northwest corner of the building. Details of the enclosed closure are not provided. A single dumpster would need to be consistent with the city's policy of requiring durable, long, lasting, solid panel material and enclosed on three sides by masonry walls that would be at least six feet in height. Additional details are required to determine compliance with the city's sign regulations. The maximum height for a monument sign in the C- 2 business district is six feet. The maximum area for a sign in the C-2 business district is 30 square feet. According to section 11.04, no sign shall be permitted at any location that creates any type of safety hazard or visual impairment to pedestrian or vehicular traffic. The submitted floor plan shows three separate portions of the building. There is the car wash bay area, the indoor vacuum section, and then the office, bathrooms and equipment rooms. Elevations show the building with quick brick finish, there would be light finish along the top three quarters, and a dark finish across the bottom quarter. Fiber cement with horizontal siding for the wall with the car wash logo over here. They also have some renderings that will be shown here in a second. The landscape plan shows 37 frontage trees, 30 which are evergreens and seven that are deciduous. There are eight existing trees remaining in the parking lot, and there will be evergreen and deciduous screening plants along Fox drive. No changes would be provided to the eastern property line. Along the C-2 to RUF, there is an existing wall and fencing. There are eight existing trees along the west property line, the C-2 to C-1 border. The required amount of green belt buffering along the west property line is 10 trees. The site plan provides three more trees along the west property line, satisfying the requirement. The south property line trees are already provided as the south property line is in the Six Mile Road frontage, five trees are. required. Seven of the frontage trees are provided, satisfying the requirement. There will be stone mulch planting beds, as well as lawn area with sod. The photometric plan submitted for the site August 19, 2025 31964 shows foot light candles at or below 0.5. at the property line with adjacent properties. Two existing light poles are scheduled to remain on the property. Three proposed 18-foot lighting fixtures are shown. There is another fixture over the west side of the parking lot. The double lighting fixture is over the 12 foot drive north of the building, providing illumination to the exit of the indoor vacuums and the entrance to the car wash. The average illumination levels on the car wash property appear consistent with the pre-existing ones. As I mentioned, here are some of the renderings that have been provided since our study session. As you can see, there's the light coloring along the top three quarters and then the dark finish along the bottom. The petitioner also submitted a stormwater management plan that shows underground water storage in the southwest corner of the property by Six Mile drive. As part of the petition, they have worked with neighboring property owners, and in the past, there was a traffic study done. The petitioner did submit an example of what was provided from that traffic study, showing a proposed signal layout that they were working with the county to get approval on showing how traffic would be managed at the site. I addition to that, we they also provided a draft letter showing to the neighbors to secure access to Fox Drive. And they're reviewing their ability to shut off the interior lighting after hours. That was shown to be a concern at our study session as well. And that with that, Mr. Chairman, I have some correspondence Mr. Wilshaw: Sure, if you'd like to read out the correspondence Mr. Uhazie: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated July 23, 2025, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time, but would like to note the following items: 1. The subject parcel is assigned the address of #38888 Six Mile Road. Should additional addresses be needed, the Owner will need to contact this Department once approvals have been obtained. 2. The existing parcel is currently serviced by public sanitary sewer, storm sewer and water main. Based on the submitted drawings, we have the following comments: i) Sanitary Sewer: The drawings do not include a basis of design for the proposed sanitary sewer outlet, but we do not believe the change in use will negatively impact the existing system. The developer will be required to clean and televise the existing sanitary sewer lead if it is to be re -used. If the condition is not sufficient for re -use, a new service will need to be installed to the parcel. ii) Water Main: The drawings do not indicate that the existing water service will be re -used for the proposed business, but if that is the intention, the owner will need to determine if the existing service is correctly sized for the proposed use. HD Storm Sewer: The drawings do not August 19, 2025 31965 indicate any storm sewer information. Storm sewer design and detention will be required per the Wayne County Storm Water Ordinance. This department will do a full review of the proposed improvements when drawings are submitted for permitting. 3.. Any improvements within the Six Mile Road right-of-way will require approval and permitting from the Wayne County Department of Public Service. Turning movements onto Six Mile Road from the site may be restricted based on comments from Wayne County traffic reviews. 4. We would recommend that the proposed business be required to place sidewalk along the west side of the property (along the Fox Drive frontage) to facilitate pedestrian traffic into the existing (and proposed) businesses through that corridor." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated August 6, 2025, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to construct a commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal. A further detailed plan review will take place when this division receives an official plan set." The letter is signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated July 25, 2025, which reads as follows: "1 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. 1 have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Paul Walters, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated July 31, 2025, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced Petition has been reviewed. 1. Signage shall conform to the city's sign ordinance, or a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals would be required. 2. An enclosure of sufficient height to completely screen the dumpster is required on three (3) sides of the waste receptacle, with a solid gate on the fourth side. The height of the enclosure must be not less than six (6) feet or at least one (1) foot above the height of the dumpster, whichever is greater. The enclosure gates shall be of solid panel steel construction or durable, long-lasting solid panel fiberglass and, when not in use, closed at all times. The enclosure must be constructed of the same or compatible material and colors as the principal building in terms of texture and quality. This Department has no further objections to this Petition" The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated July 23, 2025, which reads as follows: "All taxes have been paid on this property' The letter is signed by Susie Nash, Treasurer. We also did receive a number of public comments that have been provided to you for review ahead of time to be considered. Mr. Wilshaw: We did receive many emails regarding this petition, so instead of reading those all out individually, just note that they are part of Mr. Bongero: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Bongero: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Bongero: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Bongero: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Droze: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Uhazie: August 19, 2025 31966 our record, and we have had a chance to review them. So, thank you. Is there any questions for the planning staff from any of the commissioners? So, there's no new traffic study done? No. They provided one that was done, I believe in 2023. That was done by Schoolcraft College? I don't know in what capacity, but yeah, they were the one that's provided it. Okay, they are going to put a new traffic light in? I believe there are talks with Wayne County, but that would probably be better question for the petitioner to see where that is actually at in the process. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Mr. Bongero, any other questions for staff? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Uhazie, there were several renderings included in the packet, and I guess a couple of them appeared to differ from the site plan. Are those provided as more of a reference for some of the, you know, the material choices, or, I guess, particularly the differences between the elevation and, I believe design, the architectural site plan and then the rendering? So I believe they were as examples more for the covering to give the elevations where the what the petitioner was using, and then the renderings were more for the color palettes. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Droze. Any other questions for staff? Mr. Uhazie, just one question. You mentioned the agreement between this petitioner and the neighbor who owns this strip of property along Fox Drive to get cross access to that road. Is that agreement in place? Or is that just proposed at this time? I believe it has been sent to the neighbor, as far as I know, but I do not know the status since then. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Wilshaw: August 19, 2025 31967 They seemed confident that it would be something that they could come to work together on, but I've not seen anything that's been finally signed. Okay, all right, thank you. I appreciate you clarifying that for me. If there's no other questions for staff, then the petitioner is in our audience. Feel free to come forward to our podium. I'll ask that you start with your name and address for our record. Good evening. My name is Jacob Rilett, Mannick Smith Group or the design engineer on this project. Thanks for your presentation, Jacob. I mean, they covered most of the basics of the site plan itself. Little background on Express wash. It's about 125 locations throughout the Midwest, starting in Ohio. They're moving gradually north into Michigan. This will be the third Livonia site that we've done. So you guys are a little familiar with what we do. They're really proud of themselves on, you know, the visual look of their sites, the over exceeding the requirements on landscaping and really working with neighbors and helping improve the whole area, not just their own site. There's a pretty advanced water reclamation system that recycles about 80% of the water used from each wash, so it really minimizes the impact on utilities and all those related things. As far as stacking, we don't have any concerns about the ability of this site to spilling out into the road or impacting that with backups or anything along those lines. They're capable of cycling through about 100 cars an hour, if need be. So the long backups that you see on some other car wash models just don't happen on this because of the more advanced blower technology. They don't need hand dryers out at the end, slowing things down. It's 90 seconds you're in and you're out. The vacuums are free to the public and open at all times. Well, open during business hours, but that's just a free amenity that's added with the service. As far as the traffic signal proposed, that's something that's been in the works for as I understand it, about two years. Schoolcraft College and HRC have been working on that with the county. The main reason to my knowledge, that it hasn't happened yet is because the existing curb cut of the Buca to pepper site is on the southwest corner, which would really make the signal unviable. And then by going forward with the layout that we provide here, it allows that curb cut on Six Mile to move over to the southeast corner of the site and really allows that traffic signal to go into place. And we believe that it's going to really offset a lot of the traffic concerns that might be had about a car wash coming in here, because car washes are an automated heavy use. As far as a new traffic study, I mean, we didn't have time since the study meeting last week to get a full new traffic study done for this site, but I can provide you some useful numbers and sell you the ITE manual for traffic. For a car wash site, it recommends that you Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Rilett: August 19, 2025 31968 use about 70 trips generated for a peak hour traffic. So that's your peak hour, your most vehicles you're ever going to see is about 70. But for a car wash site, they recommend about a 75% factor of that to be passed by traffic. Car washes are an impulse purchase that you get when you're already out. People aren't leaving their houses to go get a car wash and go back home. So that impact that you're going to see of new trips generated by this site is really only 17-18, at the peak hours of business. And we believe, you know, with the traffic signal going in there, that's going to be an improvement upon the existing condition, and it's going to finally allow for that left turn off of Fox drive on to Six Mile, so we believe that the traffic impact is going to be improved from the current state. Okay, anything else you'd like to tell us about the business and the layout of this business, I think you mentioned that you have sort of a unique design in the sense of compared to the other ones that we've seen in the city with indoor vacuum model. Yes, the indoor vaccum building is a sort of new prototype concept that they've been working for. We've got three or four sites in development with this, but especially in Michigan, you know, with our lovely winters, you don't want to be outside vacuuming your cars walking around in the freezing cold. This allows for an indoor vacuum bay. After you've gone through the car wash, you are free to, at any point to come into the sort of a hanger bay here and use the vacuums inside. It's heated. The floors are all heated, so you won't have any freezing issues, anything like that. And it's really more of a luxury model of a car wash. Ifs kind of like the crown jewel of what you would ask for a car wash to be and it kind of is a good...a common concern we see with cities, with these new sites we bring in, is everybody says there's so many car washes. Why do we need more generally, the thought processes, so Express's 120 sites, mostly in Columbus, Detroit area is just underserved as far as car washes. The number of washes per vehicle in this area is significantly lower than you would see in Columbus, and they believe it's kind of created by, you know, when you have these subscription model washes somebody that maybe only washed their car once a month. They come, they like it, they get a subscription. All of a sudden, they're doing it two, three times a week. You can really increase the demand by having these nice systems. The subscription at this location is good at any of our other locations as well. So, people really they'll put these, you know, only a mile away from each other back in Columbus, and they don't see an impact on a loss on the business. They really do support themselves. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Droze: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Droze: Mr. Rilett: August 19, 2025 31969 Okay, is there anything else you'd like to tell us before we get some questions for you? Fire away. All right, let's see if there's some questions. Any commissioners with questions for the petitioner? Mr. Rilett, at our study session, we talked briefly about some of the adjacent property owners, and I think coordination with them is, you know, seems like that would be an important item for this. Sounds like the Fox Drive is well underway with getting an easement and that access, which I think will help with traffic, but to the property to the east, I think at our initial rapid response meeting several months ago, we talked about how, although it's maybe not documented, it seems like there was some kind of reciprocal parking agreement written down, or maybe not, with the Trinity house to the east. Has there been any discussion between the property owners about if there's an option for providing some that parking? Because right now, it's, I think it's about 127 spaces. And you know, I think you're taking it down to 13, with multiples being vacuum sites. So, has there been any discussion with the adjacent property owner about how that might be accommodated? I believe Express has reached out to them. We did dig through sort of the titles and easements, and there's a cross access agreement in place, but there's no written formal shared parking agreement. I know, speaking with the Express representatives, they've got no issue with any of these spaces being used after business hours. We close at 8pm every night. I don't know what time most of their shows are at, but I know they have reached out, or intend to, at least, to them to come up with some sort of formal agreement as far as sharing any of our, you know, we have a lot of open spaces along there. I don't think we'd be able to keep the indoor vacuum bay open all night, but I don't think Express has any issue sharing those outside spaces after business hours. Okay, and then I guess expanding on that, there is a fair amount of open space on the north side of the property. Would that be some sort of arrangement that would be possible to maybe repurpose that for cross access parking, because, really, I mean, they're located between the daycare center and the cemetery, which certainly the later will not be able to move. I guess, if there's any opportunity, is that something that's on the table? Essentially, so the northern portion of this property had been hauled off in the design, in case the property owner to the north wanted to expand his own parking lot is part of the agreement to Mr. Droze: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Wilshaw: Leah Michaels, Mr. Droze: August 19, 2025 31970 get that Fox Drive access. It doesn't seem like that is one of his requests at this time. So there's a chance we could provide extra parking up there. I don't know that would be something that I would have to discuss with Express ownership if we were to create extra parking just for someone else to use, it's... I can't say, I promise you that for them so, but as of right now, that's the reason that north area has been withheld, is just in case it was needed as part of negotiation for the Fox Drive access, because that was a major priority for the traffic signal as well. Okay, and I guess I have one question on the traffic study itself. So, it looks like it was done roughly 2022 2023 is that reflective of current traffic volumes. I know we had kind of a dip in traffic after COVID, and that rebounded. Is that, I guess, are the findings of that study still valid. And, you know, with obviously, the restaurant has been deducted, but now were adding this back in, I guess, maybe talk to the validity of the study, and if there could be any additional work needed, what that might look like. So, we have a traffic engineer from HRC that I believe, worked on the traffic study here, and she could probably speak to that question a lot better than I can. I'm no traffic expert. Thank you. That'd be excellent. HRC. The traffic study you saw was something that HRC had worked with Schoolcraft College on a couple of years ago. So, I do want to make it clear that it does not have the projected traffic volumes from the car wash in there. This study was completed to look at the potential for a new traffic signal at Fox Drive and Six Mile. So, we have been working with Schoolcraft College for the past couple years, as well as some of the engineers from the city and Wayne County to try to get this traffic signal installed. One of the major reasons it hasn't yet is because of the location of the current driveway to the Buca de Pepo property. One of the stipulations from Wayne County roads is that that driveway not be there because it conflicts with some of the turning movements, specifically from Quakertown on the south side. So that's the reason the signal has not gone in yet. This is a signal that is being funded by Schoolcraft College. So, I'm here tonight just to point to if this land were to get redeveloped, we really want that driveway location to be pushed towards the east, so that Schoolcraft College and others can get the traffic signal there. So long answer to that question, but yes, it was done a couple years ago for purposes of the traffic signal. And I guess with that... Ms. Michaels: Mr. Droze: Ms. Michaels: Mr. Droze: Ms. Michaels: Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Bongero: Ms. Michaels: Mr. Bongero: August 19, 2025 31971 Sorry. So, John from Schoolcraft College wanted me to point out that a couple years ago, a signal was warranted there without any additional traffic from some of these developments that have occurred over the past couple of years. Okay. And I guess maybe my last question on that is, if this driveway were to be moved as part of this project, is there anything holding back the signal project at that point? So, if this gets approved, the signal could get started. Kind of where I'm looking at it is, the signal is in place before the development opens? Is that realistic? Yeah, so we have it fully designed. We don't have permits yet. We were kind of waiting on that because we knew a permit wouldn't be issued until the driveway was closed, so we have plans ready to go. It'd just be a matter of getting permits from the county and bidding the project. And fundings in place? Yep, Schoolcraft College and their group of people have all agreed to fund it. Okay, thank you. I'm good. Ms. Michaels, while you're up here, is there any other questions for our traffic engineer? Yes. Thank you for coming up tonight. So I know the study that its two and a half years old. It could never factor in a car wash. Would you even be able to speak to...with this Tight you think, help manage that traffic adequately with the car wash being there, or you couldn't even answer that? You'd have to do a new study? It'd be tough to answer. But I do know that the putting a traffic signal at Fox drive there was room for additional traffic, because I know Schoolcraft College had some other developments kind of planned in the area that we knew this traffic signal could absorb some additional traffic in the area. I think anything from this parcel, at least having the driveway go out to Fox drive is a definite improvement. People using the fox drive and then a signal to turn on a six mile is a lot safer than I think the current driveway that's there now. But you couldn't,without them doing a separate study, there's just no way you could... Yeah, I can't speak to that. I'm sorry. Ms. Michaels: August 19, 2025 31972 Mr. Bongero: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Bongero, any other questions for our traffic engineer? Mr. Long: Can you speak to the configuration of a signal, I mean, Fox drive, and then the entrance to the subdivision are not aligned. So how does that work? Is there more than one light there? And do they allow them to turn into a green? Do you know how that would work? Ms. Michaels: Yep. So, it'd be like a split phase. So when Quaker town received a green light, it would be the only one that had a green light. So everybody exiting Quaker town, and then Fox drive would be a separate phase. So would have a green light at a separate time, and then your Six Mile traffic would go together. So, they would each have separate signals and separate phasing. And quick, I guess I should add Quakertown, and working with the City of Livonia, will be adding a northbound left turn lane, so taking out that median that's there to help improve some of the flow coming off of Quaker town onto Six Mile that was something we've been working with the city engineers on as well. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. My question was actually very similar. It's just in explaining that this is essentially an offset signal, and both the traffic coming out of Fox drive and Quaker town will both be protected with a dedicated phase as they use their respective directions. Okay, that way there's no conflicts or cars hitting each other. Excellent. Okay, that's the only question I had. Is there any other questions for a traffic engineer? We're gonna let her sit back down. Everyone's good. Mr. Droze? Mr. Droze: Maybe one more. Ms. Michaels, I guess your the engineer record for the signal. But has there been any discussion with maybe Wayne County offered it in terms of the operation of the car wash driveway. Would that Six Mile access be right in, right out, or would it permit, like a left turn out of there? Just curious. Ms. Michaels: So, I don't know about the car wash specifically. About a year ago, when we were talking about Buca de Pepo, they were requesting that it be right in, right out. Mr. Droze: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Bongero: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bongero: Go ahead, How crucial to this traffic management, in your opinion, is that additional access onto Fox Drive. You know what I am saying? That's needed, right? To pull this off. They're going to need that August 19, 2025 31973 if they don't, because that's not a guarantee. Yet, they don't have it. They've been talking to them, but they don't have it yet. Ms. Michaels: For a car wash, yes, I think you definitely need a second Mr. Bongero: They need that additional. Okay, okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Anyone else? All right, I think for all set, thank you. Ms. Michaels, for coming up. Any other questions for our petitioner? Mr. Bongero: Just following up on that Fox Street access. What is the holdup of like not having a... Mr. Rilett: So, the property owner of the north, he was at the study meeting that we had last week. I know the agreement was sent over the day after that meeting. I know it's been signed by the Express side. I don't think there's any hold up, really, at this point, it may have already been signed. Express is handling that. I'm not the engineer, but it's, I mean, we would expect that within the next week to be signed, yeah. I mean, there's been no, there's no resistance to it at this point. Mr. Bongero: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Long: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Long: Mr. Rilett: Okay. Thank you Thank you, Mr. Long. Thank you. Could you talk about the proposed traffic flow on the site and would exit traffic then...would traffic be forced to exit onto Fox Road? Because that would certainly provide... Tey would have choices to...so if you've got this like plan up here, I don't know if the audience can see it, but you'd enter in from either Fox or Six mile, and you'd come around the west and south side of the building. You enter into the stacking lanes along the southeast corner. Here you go up. You got three pay station kiosks. There you come around to make the U turn into the tunnel at that north east corner of the building. Come all the way through the wash tunnel. At that point, you're free to leave if you choose to, if you want to wash your car, you're able to make the U turn back into the wash bay on the west side of the building and come out the north side. Or you can use the outdoor vacuums to swing around the south end there. And at that point, it's fully a' two way drive around both ends. So you can you're free to either way you come in, you're free to use either exit. I understand, and people are going to do what they do, just like people turn left on Fox. Drive right now, even though... But with this they would be allowed to do, right? Mr. Long: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Long: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Long: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Uhazie: Mr. Rilett: August 19, 2025 31974 Would the petitioner be opposed to encouraging people to exit Fox Drive and again, I guess we, we probably would want to see that driveway as a right turn only anyway, Yeah. I mean, if no left turn is allowed out of Six Mile, I mean that alone would encourage anybody wanting to go left, to exit Fox drive side. And then there's been discussion, and understandably, you can't speak to the to the ability of the proposed parking to the north to help the theater. But would they be able to get access to that site, or is it all gated out? Does the does the bailout lane get them back there? So, the bailout lanes not gated or anything. I'm not sure at night, what would happen with the kiosks, as they be able to access through there, if we were to put something up in that, that northeast sort of square that's kind of isolated from the rest of the project. But, yeah, I mean, I'm sure there'd be some sort of signage in place saying, you know, after hours, you can go through the bailout lanes here and access that area. If we were to add some sort of parking up in that section, we had also initially discussed a cross -access connection with the property the north if they were going to access that, but that, and they ended up just allowing the cut straight to Fox Drive. And then my, my last, hopefully, my last comment or question is, can you talk a little bit more about the water saving technologies that you use now compared to some of the older car washes, and speak to that. If you can then get to the utility plan here, it'd be a c400. I believe I'll have to bring it up. But in the meantime, I can kind of walk you through it. So, along that underneath the pavement of the vacuum spaces on the west side of the building, you'd have your sanitary leads that lead out from the wash tunnel bay. There's a grease interceptor that captures any, you know, chemical items that get caught up in that and then It goes through three separate water reclamation tanks that recycle as much water as they can get, about 80% per wash. So each wash uses, I believe it's 30 gallons, so almost all that ends up coming back in. Adam Meyer, Regional Manager for Express wash. So, on the typical car wash, if you wash it at your house, you use 125 gallons. Our wash is used just over 20. August 19, 2025 31975 Mr. Rilett: That's after the recycle. Yep. Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Long. Any other questions for our petitioner? Mr. Droze. Mr. Droze: Yes, the engineering letter mentioned a sidewalk along Fox drive is that within your ability, as part of the agreement to install that or that need to be on your property in a way that might affect your landscaping? Mr. Rilett: I mean, if its in the right of way, does Fox drive have a public right of way? Mr. Droze: Private it looks like? But there's probably some sort of... Mr. Rilett: Mr. Droze: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Droze: That would have to be brought up with the agreement with the neighbor then, I mean, we'd have no problem doing it, but we can't promise that on his behalf. If not, yeah, I mean, we'd be willing to kick it back to our property line. It would just be quite a bit off the road at that point. And then the last question, Jake, if you go to the A2-1 elevation...there you go. So kind of the...by my judgment, the eastern and southern facades are, I guess, a little less inviting than the Western facade. Is there any embellishments or architectural details or windows or what have you that can be added to kind of break up the you know, it's basically just brick and the siding facade. Some of the examples you shared from, I think it was a shaker Ohio rendering had a little more street front character to it. Is that something that could be added to this? Yeah, I mean, they're able to add sort of the facade over the top, that makes it look nice, or even clean up, sort of with, I'm an architect, to forget all the terms. But yeah, they can. They can spice things up, as far as visuals with, you know, accents on over doorways or windows. So, a lot of that, that eastern side that you're talking about is the mechanical rooms. So, I don't know, I think they're pretty limited as far as windows is what they can put there. Less so the east side it is more of the southern side. This is the side that people are going to see as they come into Livonia, off the expressway. For the first time. It's again, it's one of these gateway properties that, you know, prefer to have a little more character to it. The one on Plymouth Road. It's narrower, but it feels a little more, you know, with the glass, it just feels a little Mr. Rilett: August 19, 2025 31976 more consistent with that commercial corridor is this, you know, it's just a lot of brick and two garage doors. So, I guess I just offer, you know, maybe working with planning staff to explore that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, see that, if that was attached as a condition, I know we could accommodate something there. Yep, I don't know as far as windows, just because I'm not sure. I don't know the structural bones of the building, but I know they can, they can do some stuff with it. Yeah, okay. Mr. Wilshaw: Is that all, Mr. Droze? Mr. Droze: That is it. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. All right. Thank you. Any other questions for the petitioner? Mr. Caramagno: Good evening. I happen to like this rendering of the building compared to the three renderings that you brought to us at the study session. I think this is more tasteful, for sure. Is this proposal a fair rendering of what your what your what this building will look like at the end of the day? Mr. Rilett: Yes. Mr. Caramagno: With the enhancements Mr. Droze is talking about, okay. One of my concerns after the meeting last week was the car wash on Farmington Road, just south of Eight Mile road. I drive by there sometimes late at night, and I know we've talked about LED lighting being turned off or not visible, but all the windows that are naturally on a car wash when the lights are on, it looks absolutely terrible. And I see we've got a provision in here to turn them off, and I seen some other language in here that the car wash will look and see what they can do about it. But to me, that's a big deal those, those green, purple, orange, red lights, Mr. Meyer: Yeah, so this was brought to my attention on Saturday. On Monday, yesterday, I had switches installed on those lighting systems. As of tonight, it's part of the closing task for those to be shut off. Mr. Caramagno: They'll be shut right off? Mr. Meyer: Completely off, and no color. Mr. Caramagno: And so no colors, they'll be white, like we've got here, or red and purple. No, we're gonna, shut them right down. Beautiful. Good, good. August 19, 2025 31977 Mr. Caramagno: My next question for you is, on the on the east side of the property, we talked about the parking for the neighbor, well, that's not your responsibility. They have some sort of a ability to park on the property in the past, and now I see a fence, maybe a concrete fence, on that east side along the cemetery. Are you putting a wall up there? Is that just what it looks like here? Mr. Rilett: That's just what it looks like. No, that's the existing Yep. No, no screening changes to that side. Mr. Caramagno: Let's go back to that for a minute. So, the cemetery fence that's all run down there. You're not putting anything up along there. Well, you're just gonna properly run right up to that cemetery fence that's dilapidated, and there'd be nothing there. Thought I saw a rendering here of a fence. Mr. Rilett: I think there's a small brick wall and a fence, if I'm... Mr. Uhazie: Currently, there is a brick wall and with like a iron fence above it. Yeah, there's like, a grade change right there. Mr. Caramagno: Okay, so there's no enhancements to that side of the property? Mr. Rilett: Not at this time, no. Mr. Caramagno: So, if you're gonna allow some parking at the back of that property for the theater? Is there a way to pour a sidewalk on that side of the property where they're not walking through your lanes to get to a theater event? Mr. Rilett: I think that might be contingent on what the grading in that area looks like. I haven't done a full deep dive on that yet. If there was any way to create some sort of pedestrian access path on that side? Yeah, that's something we could accommodate. Mr. Caramagno: Of course, the problems come with it winter time. Who's going to shovel the snow, but it would... if you allowed parking in the back for them. It would allow them to walk down a sidewalk, or someone down a sidewalk, as opposed to walking through your lanes if they had an afternoon show. So, maybe something to look at. That's all I've got. Mr. Wilshaw: All right, thank you, Mr. Caramagno. Any other questions for the petitioner. I just have a couple...the write up that we have says that there's going to be nine outdoor vacuums, and I think 14 interior ones. The renderings of course, show many more than that we've already established. I believe that the renderings are not necessarily an accurate representation. Mr. Rilett: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Rilett: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Rilett: August 19, 2025 31978 The renderings are just to show kind of the feel and colors of the site. Okay. So, my question is, I like the idea of indoor vacuums. That's kind of a game changer. It's new. It's different. It's also takes a lot of the noise that's generated by those and puts it interior to the interior of your building, which is not a bad thing. My question to you then is, do you need the outdoor vacuums? So, Express's model, they try to get to 20 on each site. And that's also, it's a nice, you know, sort of eye grabbing, almost advertisement for the fact that you have, hey, there's free vacuums here. It's a nice addition there, as well as, yeah, I mean, if you have a nice day, you don't necessarily need to do it indoors. They're able to cycle through so many cars through so quickly. So that means they do want to have enough vacuum spaces to accommodate those. And if, in case, there was a need for that many at once. Okay, because it sort of negates the benefit of having that sound moved inside, if you still have them outdoors. But, and I understand the reason why. Well, so to that point, I'm going to ask, how is the noise of the vacuums mitigated? How is that managed? So, actually, I have a sound study here for both the blower at the end of the tunnel and the vacuums themselves. So, the way the vacuum system works is there's a correlator box, if you can see, that will essentially...all the noise is going to come out of that. The vacuums themselves are nearly silent. So those are located on the end of the vacuum rows, I believe on the northwest corner of the building. There, maybe southwest Yep, southwest corner. There that item number five on the southwest corner. So that's your correlator box. And we have those, usually fenced with landscaping, which does dim some of the noise. But I have a sound study here at a distance of 30 feet, you're down to 23 decibels, which is lower than the traffic volume you're going to see on Six Mile road. Anyway, I can pass these around if you want to see them. Okay, but, yeah, I mean, noise concern is relatively low, and especially when you're far away from residential like this site is. Mr. Wilshaw: So, you're not going to have nine individual vacuum units out there just whirring away there. So, this is a different, more modern version of a vacuum. Okay, that was, that was my one concern I wanted to raise. The other thing is the exterior materials for the most part. We do have two of your locations in this city already. August 19, 2025 31979 Is it safe to assume that as we look at those two locations that we're looking at similar building materials? Mr. Rilett: Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Do you use the quick brick at these other sites as well? Mr. Rilett: Yep. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and that's a system that you've had good luck with in terms of... Mr. Rilett: Yeah, I believe nearly all of the Express projects like that Mr. Wilshaw: They're all using quick brick, okay. We've had problems in the past with thin brick, you know, systems, but I know they're getting much better. And if you're if you've had experience with them, I'm going to trust that you're... they're going to be good for you, because obviously you don't want your building looking rattier. Mr. Rilett: Oh yeah, no. I mean, there's 10-year-old buildings in the Columbus area that still look brand new. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, great, excellent. That's it for me, for now, is there any other questions from any of my fellow Commissioners? Mr. Long: Just following up on the vacuums. So, did yout call it a correlator box for the outdoor one? Mr. Rilett: Yeah. Mr. Long: Is that the same thing? How does the indoor one work? If I go into the indoor am I going to go deaf trying to vacuum my car with it? Mr. Rilett: Mr. Long: Mr. Wilshaw: They do have correlators that run those to. I believe they're located back in the mechanical room, so they're not out in the room. So they're not out in the room. But they're in a mechanical room of the thing. Okay, all right, thank you. Just curiosity thing. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Long. If there's no other questions from any of our commissioners, no other questions...we've covered that, I'm going to go to our audience. So, we're going to have you sit down for just a few moments. Is there anyone in our audience wishing to speak for or against this item? I'm sure there are. Feel free to come forward to one of our podiums. August 19, 2025 31980 Christopher Waterman, 20336 Meadowview, Livonia, MI That's at Eight Mile and 1-275, and I am the board Vice President of Trinity House Theater. I've been with the board a little over 10 years. Thank you for hearing us out tonight. We're an all volunteer arts and culture nonprofit, and certainly there are some very pragmatic concerns that we have. Thank you to the Commission for bringing a few of those up tonight, specifically Mr. Droze and Mr. Caramagno, the the parking, the traffic, environmental impact, noise, but we realize that we can't necessarily choose our neighbors. We're a little nonprofit. That being said, I want you to consider that this is the place that you're looking to put a car wash next to. And I'm not, I don't think car washes are the enemy. I don't think these people are the enemy. We realize that, you know, at the end of the day, you need to work with your neighbors. But once again, this is the place that you're considering putting a car wash next to, a place built in 1850 before Livonia was even a city. A place where, in 1856 the third annual Michigan anti -slavery society held their meeting, and the abolitionist and civil rights icon Sojourner Truth was not only in attendance at that meeting, she also spoke and sang a song. This is the place that in 1981 Paul Patton and Trinity Church members formed together to form a community theater, and for the better part of 20 years, they were a part of offering brave, truthful, necessary works of art for the community. And then over the last 25 years, we've transitioned mostly to live music, and we're known as one of the state's best listening rooms, and we seat about 78 people, so it's a very intimate setting. This is a place where this very night on a Tuesday night, middle of the week, there are approximately 12 to 15 people with guitars for an open mic night to brave the stage and people right from our very community having that opportunity in this building. Car washes aren't the enemy, however, really ask you to consider what you are putting around such a cultural gem, especially in light of things like the Livonia Built proposal not going through and you have something in Livonia that does bring culture. We realize that we're small. We realize that we're hidden, in a sense, sometimes. But we just ask you to really consider is there may be something better, more of a fit, more in concert with Trinity house as a neighbor. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Mr. Waterman, anyone else wishing to speak on this item? I Bill Dolunt, resident of Quakertown, 16215 Quakertown, Livonia, MI. I agree with Trinity House as well. I mean, certainly something, maybe other than a car wash. And again, to his point, I'm not against them either, but where that is, again, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me and a lot of my neighbors who aren't here. But at any rate, that and the traffic, even though you're going to put out that light there, if you guys have seen that, it's just off 1-275 and Six Mile Mr. Wilshaw: William Hurley, August 19, 2025 31981 exit. So if you actually...you can't see it there, but what is it, maybe 100 yards tops, and we're going to put a driveway even closer to that exit. So those are my concerns. I think you know, especially with Comerica go down and all of that development that could very well spawn something else as well, though, his, to his point, may be a restaurant as well, but whatever that is, I have a hard time with a car wash there. Again, it just doesn't seem to fit. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Dolunt. Anyone else wishing to speak? There's a gentleman coming forward. Good evening, sir. 16112 Penn Drive, Livonia, MI. It's kind of cool to be speaking here on this auspicious occasion, the 1,234th 1234 meeting notice. Made that joke. I'm not nearly as eloquent or cogent as the last two speakers, so this will be a bit disjointed, but please bear with me.. I first take a little bit offense to the statement that we in the Motor City are underserved with car washes, we keep clean automobiles. I can count three within one mile of this proposed location. Seven and Haggerty, Five and Haggerty and Six and Haggerty. Excuse me, I'm not, a great public speaker. Traffic is already a great issue, and well, I do appreciate what the Schoolcraft representative was talking about. If we need that driveway, move like me, my buddies will just go do it so you can get your light without putting a car wash there. A car wash is suburban blight. I don't mean to be rude, serious. You know, Detroit is known like the land of liquor stores. It's not a great vibe. We don't need another car wash. It is esthetically unpleasing. I understand that those gentlemen, they did a great job of trying to make their car wash look good. It still looks like a car wash. I don't see any great driving economic value from it. It's not going to promote a bunch of good jobs for Livonia residents. You know, if the car wash goes in, I guess I hope this is a success. But should it not be? What the hell else are we going to put there after we got to remediate the property, another car wash, at least with the present, you know, building multiple different kind of restaurants go in there. Another business could take it over. It's got options. A car wash is a car wash, and it seems like damn forever. It's not quite a dry cleaner. But and I can appreciate the environmental safeguards that the gentleman were speaking about, it still pollutes. And then, as the gentleman from Trinity House stated, there's a beautiful little cemetery right there. Let's not pollute that. Sorry, I was writing down a lot, as you guys were speaking, I just find it disingenuous to discuss a traffic study saying that a car wash won't increase traffic. I'm sorry I only just learned about this meeting. I would have gotten my own traffic study done. Okay? By its very nature. It needs more traffic to be successful. And then the young lady from Schoolcraft was discussing that when they did their study, that Schoolcraft had expected some Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Hurley: August 19, 2025 31982 developments of its own that it could take on the traffic of Well, I mean, that study doesn't seem to hold any water anymore. If Schoolcraft expected to take on that extra traffic, or assume that extra traffic at this light, which, again, me and my buddies will put in, if you keep out the car wash., If you're going to put the car wash there, this traffic study, I mean, I haven't read it, I'll be honest, doesn't seem to hold much water. I can appreciate the discussion about the noise. I walk my dog past that daily, it would be scared of this car wash. Have you ever driven past a car wash with your windows on and not heard it? I can appreciate the decibel counts quoted. I know nothing about acoustics. Car washes are noisy. I mean, let's put a small airport in why not Livonia airport? There's great potential for this property beyond a car wash on that corner of Six mile and Haggerty the northeast side, it's of such great value. It seems like a short sale to sell to a car wash. And I could be mistaken. I was talking to my brother about it today, and he said something about a Whole Foods. I have no idea. You put a Whole Foods in there. Let's get a nice ass...let's get a nice restaurant in there to make organic meals. Let's support that little gem of a corner that the gentleman from Trinity house was talking about, this area is about to become. And I say this area because I wrote this down when I was at home on that intersection. That area is becoming more attractive. And I'm sorry, despite the best efforts of Frank Lloyd Wright, you couldn't make a car wash, an attractive place in that area. Mr. Hurley, I'm going to ask if you can try to summarize at this point. No, that's the end of my points. Sorry, I was writing down a lot as you guys...lastly, I just want to say that the petitioner, or the petitioner's representative, on several occasions, was asked questions. He stated, I'm sure, and there's no resistance without evidence, of these speculative statements, discussion about the Fox Drive driveway, et cetera, I would ask that if these statements are going to be taken as true, that they be in writing before this body, before they be taken at face value. Thank you for letting me ramble. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for your comments. Mr. Hurley, Lloyd Vandenbrink, involved with Trinity house theater since 1985. As you know or heard, Trinity house is a volunteer run arts organization, and one of Livonia is cultural treasures. For nearly 40 years, it has given residents a place to gather to celebrate the arts in the field, connected as a community. I'm here tonight to respectfully object to the request for a variance of Section 3.0 of the zoning ordinance that would allow a car wash. This code exists to protect the character of our neighborhoods, to ensure appropriate land Mr. Wilshaw: August 19, 2025 31983 use and safeguard residents from negative impacts. Car washes bring noise, traffic, chemical runoff and harsh lighting that don't belong next to a cultural landmark or in an already congested corridor. Trinity house already faces challenges with access and adding a high intensity business would only make things worse. A variance should only be granted in cases of true hardship. Business convenience is not a hardship, it's a preference. If granted, this sets a precedence that weakens your zoning commissions or zoning protections and chips away at the kind of city Livonia wants to be. Trinity House, as I understand it, has faithfully maintained its building, which is owned by the city and enriches our community for decades. Please consider what is at stake for our cultural life and quote and quality of life. I urge you to deny this variance. If Trinity House goes under, the city will be needing to take care of that that property as well. Thank you for your time and your service to the city. Thank you, Mr. Vandenbrink. Anyone else wishing to speak? We have one lady coming forward. As this young lady is coming forward, I just want to explain too, for folks in our audience that haven't been through this process before, just so you understand a little bit better, the planning commission is going to is reviewing this to make a recommendation to City Council. We're going to make an approving or denying recommendation that would then go to City Council. They would hold their own...actually, excuse me, if we make an approving recommendation, it would go to City Council. If we make a denying motion, then the petitioner has a right to appeal to City Council, in which the City Council will ultimately make the final decision on this. So just so you understand, this is a sort of a multi -step process. This is the first step. We're kind of doing the heavy lifting and homework on the site plan, and then the council will see this as well in the future. So, good evening, ma'am. Eileen McDonnell, 36099 Brookview, Livonia, MI. I agree with all the other speakers that this should be denied. I don't think it's an appropriate thing to have a car wash at the location next to Trinity House and next to the souls that are buried in the cemetery. You also have to take in consideration the people that live in the assisted living facility. I just think it's just too much. And the gentleman that just spoke previously stated about the upcoming developments and the apartments that are going to be put in at Six and Haggerty, you've got all kinds of opportunities to bring in different businesses, restaurants, coffee shops, something but something that's more acceptable for the community. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, sir. August 19, 2025 31984 Bill Keith, 25131 Midland, Redford, MI. I live in Redford, but volunteer at Trinity House theater. And first, I just want to thank the representatives that have mentioned the concerns of parking at the theater, because it would be easy to miss that. It's a very small building. It's nice to see that there is possibly some space at the north end of the property where there might be able to be some parking. That's encouraging. I would agree with everybody about car washes. I love car washes. I love when I get my car washed. I love the higher quality car washes that I've been able to use, but Livonia has plenty of them. I was just looking at the All Things Livonia Facebook page, and they put up a new graphic at the top of their page that says, All things Livonia, home of chicken restaurants and car washes. And I know they were kind of poking at this, because there was a lot of comments about this development and the impact on the area, and I just think everybody else has highlighted a lot of the concerns. I would especially be concerned during the construction phase, because we are limited to about 13 spaces right out in front of the theater and the cemetery. And right now, we're fortunate that the children's center that is on the other side is vacant at the moment, so there is some additional parking over there. But if, if ever there were both under construction at the same time, we would be in a world of hurt. We used to have people who would park on the other side of Six Mile in that office building property, right next to, I guess, Quakertown. But that is a risky prospect in and of itself. Trying to cross Six Mile Road to get to the theater. And people used to park down at Comerica property, and would walk down. Not a bad walk, but once that goes under construction, that's going to make that cemetery and that theater property very challenged. But I appreciate you thinking about the theater as you've considered these questions and providing this opportunity to provide input. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Rilett: Thank you, Mr. Keith. Anyone else wishing to speak? I don't see anyone else wishing to speak. Is the petitioner...would you like to come forward and address any particular issues that were raised that you would like to address? Again, we not we don't want to get into a back and forth debate, but if there's any specific concerns that were mentioned that you wanted to address, I'm going to give you that opportunity. Yeah, I mean specifically the quantity of car washes in the area and the location. I mean, Express doesn't just pick a property and throw something on there willy nilly. I mean, this is a 5 million plus dollar development here. They do quite a bit of market study research about, you know, they don't want to put one right on top of another car wash. That's not a good business model for either party involved. And we feel really confident that this location, as far as demand for car washes, is not overpopulated in the area, August 19, 2025 31985 especially...quite a few of the car washes that are nearby are the sorts that are attached to like a mechanic or not quite up to the same business model as this one, and are not always seen as direct competition. So, the amount of washes in the nearby vicinity is not the major concern as far as the viability of this development. And I mean, I do appreciate the concerns of all the Trinity house speakers. I mean, we do not have any intention of being bad neighbors. And I think if you look at either the other two Express car washes that have already opened up in Livonia, they've even done some work, not only on their own property, but cleaning up and esthetic improvements to the neighboring properties as well. I mean, we know it's a car wash, it can only look so nice. But as far as landscaping, and in any way they can, they really go for like, a Disney World level visual aspect, as far as the landscape presentation of the site goes. I mean, as far as environmental concern issues. I mean, they do a very good job collecting and dealing with all that and anything that would be the case that we it all goes out into the sanitary system. They're not, you know, out washing onto any neighboring properties, polluting anything other than just into the sanitary system itself. And then, like the sound study that we passed out indicated especially at the distance away from the neighboring property. We try to keep everything that's loud as far west as possible. Once you get to those distances, the sound impact on the neighboring properties is going to be negligible: Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Rilett. Mr. Meyer: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Meyer: I'd like to add a couple of things on that. Of course, go ahead, sir. So as far as, like with Trinity, you know, God bless them for what they're doing. I mean, I absolutely great, great cause. But we are a great company for nonprofits in the area. The other two Livonia sites. The first 10 days for both we raised money for cares. Next week, I'll be presenting a check for over $17,000 to that charity. Us, as a company, we gave away just under $500,000 last year to local nonprofit companies. This year will be over $700 and our owner is very big on not going with major charities. We go with small local charities that we can make an impact on. With, Mr. Caramagno, you had brought up the adjacent properties in Livonia. Right when I got there the first day I stopped there. I was not happy with the landscaping with the adjacent properties on both sides, I didn't make that property owner come in and clean it up. We took the cost. We cleaned up those property lines to make sure it met our standards. I go to these sites twice a week. On my inspections if there is so much as a straw wrapper on the Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Caramagno: August 19, 2025 31986 adjacent property, they lose their points for their parking lot. Because we train our staff to clean up that property. We want to be great neighbors. You know, in the Livonia on the Farmington Road, I got there the fence in the back that went around the residential area there, it was dilapidated. We paid to have it fixed. The retaining wall at the Plymouth Road location. It wasn't ever required for it to be painted or have anything done to it. We went in there, we cleaned it up, we painted it, and we made sure it was right. As far as the noise, right off one of our vac producers at our Plymouth Road location, going into Dunkin Donuts. Dunkin Donuts drive through. Is right there. They have no problem using their drive through with our vac producer. So, I mean, we really want to be great neighbors. We do have extremely, extremely high standards. If you go buy one of our facilities, go by our Livonia locations, they are spotless. Now, I know people have a bad image of car washes, but we elevate that to a different level, and you can end up with something far worse if this was turned down. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your comments. If there's no other questions. Chairman, I did. I did find that picture that I was talking about with that brick wall or concrete wall looking toward the cemetery. You might want to look at that on your renderings here, because it does illustrate just what you talked about, a very clear and good looking eastern front of your property. It doesn't look like that today, and hearing that the wall isn't going to be there, I'II say it doesn't sit well with me, but what you're showing in this picture sits very well with me, so I think you need to look at that and see what you can do with that eastern side that talks right back to your story you just told us. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Caramagno, if there's no other questions or comments, I'm going to close the public hearing and a motion is in order. On a motion by Caramagno, seconded by Long, and unanimously adopted, it was #08-37-2025 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2025-07-02-15 submitted by Mannik & Smith Group, on behalf of Clean Express Car Wash, requesting waiver use approval under Sections 3.11 and Section 6.07 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, to operate an Auto -Wash Establishment, at 38888 Six Mile Road, located at the N.E. corner of Fox Drive and Six Mile Road in the S.W. '% of Section 7, be approved subject to the following conditions: August 19, 2025 31987 1. That the Site Plan marked Sheet C200 dated July 9, 2025, as revised, prepared by Mannick Smith Group is hereby approved and shall be adhered to, except as may be modified below. 2. That the Demolition Plan marked Sheet C101 dated July 9, 2025 as revised, prepared by Mannick Smith Group is hereby approved and shall be adhered to. That the Landscape Plan marked Sheets L100 and L101 dated July 9, 2025, as revised, prepared by Mannick Smith Group is hereby approved and shall be adhered to, except as may be modified below. 4. That the Photometric Plan marked Sheets C600 dated July 9, 2025, as revised, prepared by Mannick Smith Group is hereby approved and shall be adhered to, except as may be modified below. 5. The Exterior Elevations Plan, identified as A2-1, dated July 10, 2025, prepared by SBA Studios, is approved and shall be adhered to except the south elevation, which shall be enhanced to the satisfaction of the Planning Director. 6. The hours of operation shall be limited to the following: Monday through Saturday from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. and Sunday from 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. 7. All light fixtures shall not exceed a height of twenty feet (20') and shall be aimed and shielded to minimize stray light trespassing across property lines and glaring onto adjacent roadways. All exterior lights shall be turned off or dimmed between 8:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. 8. Underground sprinklers shall be installed for all landscaped and sodded areas. All planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection Department and permanently maintained in a healthy condition. 9. All disturbed lawn areas, including road rights -of -way, shall be sodded instead of hydroseeding. 10. The three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be constructed out of building materials that complement the building, and the enclosure gates shall consist of opaque and durable steel or composite panels. August 19, 2025 31988 11. That a detailed Stormwater Detention plans are submitted to the Engineering Department before construction. 12. Only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. 13. No exposed LED light band or neon shall be permitted on this site, including, but not limited to, the building or around the windows. 14. The car wash bay lights shall be shut off when closed. 15. Unless approved by the Inspection Department, any type of exterior advertising, such as promotional flags, streamers, or sponsor vehicles designed to attract the attention of passing motorists, shall be prohibited. 16. That sidewalks be added to the site to the satisfaction of the Planning Director. 17. The petitioner shall provide an updated traffic study to City Council to affirm the proposed use would not have a significant negative impact on the area. 18. Approval is contingent upon the Petitioner entering into an agreement with the owners of the adjacent commercial property to the west, allowing the Petitioner access to Fox Drive. 19. The petitioner shall work with Trinity House to mitigate parking issues to the satisfaction of the Planning Director. 20. All parking spaces, except the required handicapped spaces, shall be doubled striped at ten feet (10') wide by twenty feet (20') in length as required. 21. Egress onto Six Mile Road shall be restricted to right -in and right -out configuration. 22. The plans referenced in this approving resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department with the building permit application(s); and 23. Per Section 13.13 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, this approval is valid for one (1) year from the date of approval by the City Council. Unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void after the one (1) year period. August 19, 2025 31989 FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Long: Mr. Chair, I'll offer support, but I would like to offer an amendment to number seven and Mr. Caramagno's, or in the approving resolution, we're all exterior lights shall be turned off or dim between 8pm and. 7:30am I think we need to change that to 7am to be consistent with the hours that we're setting out in in number six, where they're allowed to be open Monday through Saturday, from 7am to 8pm. Mr. Caramagno: Nice catch. I'm good with it. Okay, thank you so support. Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Any other comments or questions on the motion. Mr. Droze. Mr. Droze: Mr. Caramagno, a couple suggested amendments for your consideration. One that a signed and sealed statement from a professional traffic engineer validating that the development essentially will not have adverse impacts under the proposed condition within the traffic study, so essentially loading the proposed use into that traffic study, updating it and providing information to planning and or council. I have a couple more, so I don't know if you want to go one by one. Mr. Caramagno: That makes sense. Mr. Droze: The next one is...it feels like having signed approvals from the, first and foremost the Fox Drive, having that in place before it goes to council, because it's, as noted by several, that access is pretty important from a traffic standpoint, I think addresses a lot of the concerns of the community. Mr. Caramagno: Well discussed and agreed. Mr. Droze: Okay, the third one. I'm not sure exactly how to say this, but these are not...the traffic signal is a different project from what we're considering tonight, but I know a lot of my concerns would be put at ease if there was assurance traffic signal is in an operational as a condition of the certificate of occupancy. So, I'm not sure if that's something that we can do, but it feels to me like it's important for the project to have that traffic signal up and running. So it's a little complicated from a legal perspective, but... August 19, 2025 31990 Mr. Caramagno: It is because the car wash is not putting the signal in. Schoolcraft College is putting the signal in. It sounds like it's well on its way, but I don't know how you tie that back to the car wash. Mr. Droze: Okay, I can pull that one if necessary. Mr. Long: I have the same problem. I have that's right there in my notes, yeah, but I don't know how you... Mr. Wilshaw: Yeah, how do you obligate this petitioner? Mr. Long: Mr. Droze: Mr. Droze: I guess you know what I would rely upon, or what I would... how I resolved it, in my mind was that that's going to be up to council. And by the time it gets to council, hopefully they're far enough along, but I would think that council would take that into consideration as they ultimately approve or deny. So that's how I got past it. Okay, good. And then maybe just the last concern is, you know, this is...as was noted, this is a...it's not a natural resource, but we have a community and resource that's potentially being impacted by this. And you know, it seems to me, before this goes to council, maybe this isn't an item of the approving motion, but I think certainly having done some homework with actual sit down meetings to talk about this and what can be done, because I think, you know, much like we might see, if a project impacts a portion of a wetland, it has an impact on, you know, the greater natural resource. Cutting off the parking and other access for this existing use, I think it needs to be mitigated, and so some consideration that the applicant engage in a documented way with the Trinity house prior to the council would be my last condition. Mr. Caramagno: That gives them time to discuss that with them in greater detail. Yeah, I think that's a good, good suggestion. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, any other comments on this petition? I do have a number of notes as well. I wanted to make sure everything is covered. I'm going to go through things I'm hearing might be missing. Double stripes parking. I didn't see in the approving resolution, and I believe they're showing single stripe. Mr. Uhazie: Yes, that should be in there. Mr. Wilshaw: So if we can get double stripe. Mr. Caramagno: Sure. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Long: Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Long: Mr. Caramagno Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Bongero: Mr. Long: Mr. Wilshaw: August 19, 2025 31991 Okay, that's just one of our standard things. I have the sidewalks along Fox Drive that were already mentioned, and also working with the Trinity theater property in access or potential parking abatement for them. That's going to be more of a...as noted by Mr. Droze, it's going to have to be a coordinated effort. We can't obligate them to do something, but if they can try their best effort on that the... Is there any feeling about mandating a right turn only on the Six Mile for that exit drive? There was some discussion on that. I'm not the maker of the motion. I would be fine with that, though. Also, I even want to see maybe some way finding signs again, pushing everybody, as many people, as possible, out Fox Drive. Encouraging to Fox. Encouraging. Again, its not enforceable, but : They're nice in theory. Whether or not people listen, is a total, different animal. I'm okay with the right turn coming out of the driveway, the extra driveway on Six Mile Road. I think that's good. I mean, the alternative would be, you could make the entrance off Six Mile an entrance only, and say no exit, no exiting allowed. So all traffic coming out of those tunnels would have to turn to Fox drive. We don't even have an agreement with Fox yet, correct? But again, council would have the ability to, this is our recommendation to them, so council would be able to rectify that, should they not come to an agreement, Just a thought. I'm throwing it out there. Mr. Caramagno: I got you. Yeah, so right turn out of the car wash, I'm okay with, although, when the light goes in, its probably not going to be necessary. Mr. Wilshaw: Right, because that'd be alleviated. Mr. Caramagno: Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Mr. Long: Well, the light won't alleviate left turns out of the car wash. That'll be, still be a problem. August 19, 2025 31992 Mr. Caramagno: But you'll slow them down. You'll slow them down as they're coming up to the light. And you probably can make that left. Mr. Long: You can crawl across. I understand what you're saying, but I still would want that to be right turn only. Mr. Caramagno: Right turn only. Okay, let's put that in there. Mr. Wilshaw: It's gonna be right turn only off Six Mile is a recommendation. And then the improvements to the south facing facade of the building. Mr. Droves brought that topic up, seeing that there's some changes to the rendering. I don't know that we really hammered out exactly what those are at this point. Mr. Caramagno: I would agree with that, and I would say cautiously, adding something to that south side, because I know what I saw at the study session last week was a little wild, and I didn't care for any of that, so cautiously, adding some features to the south side that make it look a little better. Mr. Wilshaw: So, to work with the planning staff. Mr. Caramagno: Yes. Mr. Wilshaw: there's options, spandrel, glass, other things that could break up that facade. Sound reasonable? Okay, supporters, all right, with that. Mr. Long: Supporter is, okay with that. Mr. Wilshaw: I think that covers all of mine. Mr. Uhazie, have you been able to capture? Mr. Uhazie: Sorry, I think I've got a good record of it. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, very good, because there's a number of items suggested. So, I appreciate all that from my colleagues. Is there any other questions on the motion to approve A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Droze, Long, Caramagno, Wilshaw NAYS: Bongero ABSENT: Dinaro ABSTAIN: Ventura Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to the City Council with an approving resolution. August 19, 2025 31993 ITEM #5 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,233rd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,233rd Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held on July 22, 2025. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #08-38-2025 RESOLVED, That the Minutes of 1,233rd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on July 22, 2025, are hereby approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Droze, Bongero, Long, Ventura, Caramagno, Wilshaw NAYS: None ABSENT: Dinaro ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,233rd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on July 22, 2025, w- ".djourned at 8:30 p.m. ATTEST: Ian Wilshaw, Chairman CITY P NING COMMISSION Sam ramagno, Secretary