HomeMy WebLinkAbout1,200 - June 13, 2023 signedMINUTES OF THE 1,2001h PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA
On Tuesday, June 13, 2023, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia
held its 1,200th Public Hearing and Regular Meetings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000
Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7 p.m.
Members present: Wafa Dinaro David Bongero Sam Caramagno
Glen Long Peter Ventura Ian Wilshaw
Members absent: None
Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor,
were also present.
Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City
Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final
determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning
Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or
vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City
Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a
petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the
petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City
Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective
seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the
professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff
has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which
the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the
proceedings tonight.
ITEM #1 PETITION 2023-04-01-03 Michael Morad
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2023-
04-01-03 submitted by Michael Morad under Sections 13.13 and
13.15 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, requesting
to rezone the property at 20180 Westmore Street, located on the
east side of Westmore Street between Farmington Road and
Shadyside Street in the Northwest 'Y4 of Section 3, from N2
(Neighborhood) to RUF (Rural Urban Farm).
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30923
Mr. Taormina: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, This is a request to rezone a single
residential property from N2 (Neighborhood) to RUF (Rural Urban
Farm). This is an unplatted property located east of Farmington
Road and south of Eight Mile Road at the corner of Norfolk and
Westmore Avenues. The purpose of the zoning change is to allow
the property owners to keep chickens on their property. RUF
zoning under Section 6.34 allows the keeping of animals
including fowl on properties with one half acre or more of land.
The RUF district also requires a minimum lot size of 15,000
square feet. The Morad's property measures 176 feet by 225 feet
for a total of 39,600 square feet or 0.91 acres, which exceeds
both of these requirements. In addition to the main residence and
a detached garage, the site plan shows a small chicken coop that
measures 7' x 7' along with a 13' x 7' fenced -in enclosure or
chicken run. The chicken coop and the chicken run are located in
the property's rear northeast corner. The applicant currently
maintains roughly 16 chickens on the property. The surrounding
area consists mostly of residential. To the north, the east and to
the south are single family homes, most of which are part of the
Folker's Farmington Acres subdivision. West, across Westmore
Street, is the Pinebrook Office Park, zoned C-1 (Local business).
The Livonia Vision Future Land Use Plan designates the subject
area as low density residential. A little bit of history about the
zoning of the property. Before Livonia became a city, the zoning
of this part of Section 3 of the Township was AG (Agriculture).
When the city was incorporated in 1950, with the adoption of
Zoning Ordinance 60, the area was rezoned to RUF in 1961.
Much of the north half of the Section was rezoned from RUF to a
classification called RLA, which stood for Residential Large Lot.
Then, in 1965 with the adoption of Ordinance #543, the RLA
district became R-3. Finally, with the adoption of the Livonia
Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, now the Livonia Zoning Ordinance,
the R-3 district became the N2 zoning. There have been two
failed,_pttempts to change the zoning of this part of Section 3,
including the subject property, back to the RUF classification. The
first attempt was in 1979 when a request to change the area from
R-3 back to RUF was rejected. The second petition occurred in
1987, and that too was denied. In staff's opinion, concerns over
the future effects of changing the zoning of this property could be
addressed through a conditional zoning agreement, which, if
voluntarily offered by the applicant, could impose limitations, such
as the type and number of farm animals, how and where they're
kept, as well as what happens should the applicants move. This
conditional zoning agreement could be presented to City Council
before the final adoption of any zoning change. I will now read the
departmental correspondence.
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30924
Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please.
Mr. Taormina: We received a number of letters from residents. I won't read all of
those, since each of the commissioners has a copy of those. I will
just indicate how many... there were seven letters representing
10 homes that support the petition and then eight emails or letters
were received, that were opposed. The first item is from the
Engineering Division, dated May 12, 2023, which reads as
follows: `in accordance with your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have
no objections to the proposed rezoning at this time. The subject
parcel is assigned the address of #20180 Westmore Avenue.
The existing parcel is currently serviced by public sanitary sewer,
water main and storm sewer. Per the submittal, there are no
planned alterations to the sanitary sewer and water main
services, so we do not expect any impacts to the existing systems
at this time. "The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant
City Engineer. The next letter is from the Finance Department,
dated May 19, 2023, which reads as follows: '7 have reviewed the
addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are
no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer,
/ have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by
Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the
Treasurer's Department, dated May 31, 2023, which reads as
follows: `In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office
has reviewed the address connected with the above noted
petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable
for taxes. Therefore, / have no objections to the proposal." The
letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of
the correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Taormina. As you noted, there are a number of
emails and letters that we received from residents. Those are in
our packet; we will receive and file those with the packet and it
will stay with this item as it moves forward. So, we appreciate the
people who have submitted those comments. Is there any
questions for the planning staff from any of our commissioners,
Dave,
Mr. Bongero: Mr. Chair, for Mark, so the conditional zoning, that'd be something
we'd vote on tonight?
Mr. Taormina: It is something that you could include in the resolution, depending
on the applicant's willingness to enter into such a thing. So, if the
Commission seems that would be a plausible resolution to some
of the issues involving this item, and there's a willingness on the
part of the applicant to engage in a conditional zoning agreement,
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30925
then it can be referenced in an approving resolution that would
then be forwarded to City Council, and City Council would actually
review the document before final adoption of any zoning change.
Mr. Bongero: Okay, so then we wouldn't be talking RUF? It would still be in
RUF?
Mr. Taormina: It would be attached to the RUF zoning.
Mr. Bongero: Okay, but with conditions that this is ... you can only have so many
animals, there's only this type, and that's it. Right?
Mr. Taormina: Right. Again, keep in mind that these are conditions that have to
be voluntarily offered by the applicant. They cannot be conditions
that you impose upon the applicant and which they object to.
Mr. Bongero: Okay.
Mr. Taormina: That is a stipulation of the statute, which allows this to occur.
Mr. Bongero: So, they would have to offer.
Mr. Taormina: That is correct.
Mr. Bongero: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Good question.
Ms. Dinaro: Mark has... is there a precedent or has this ever happened where
we rezone just one parcel in the neighborhood?
Mr. Taormina: It's happened a couple of times over the years that I've been here,
under various circumstances, sometimes involving non- issues of
non -conformities. However, I cannot recall a rezoning case like
this involving the keeping of animals. But that's not to say that it's
never happened. In my tenure, which is now closing on 25 years,
I cannot recall something like this.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you Ms. Dinaro. Any other questions for staff? Mr.
Ventura?
Mr. Ventura: Mark, at our study session, we had a discussion that the petitioner
may have, by virtue of a prescriptive letter from a counselor, may
have a right that supersedes any zoning to keep the chickens that
they desire to have and this was being studied by the Law
Department, and we're going to be guided by that if the Law
Department gave us an opinion prior to tonight's meeting, how
June 13, 2023
30926
has the law department, if they have it all come down on this
matter?
Mr. Taormina: I have discussed this matter with the Law Department, but they
believe that the Morad's are doing the right thing by seeking the
zoning change, realizing that their claim under the American with
Disabilities Act (ADA) is probably one that could very well be
upheld, and hence proceeding through the zoning change is the
proper course of action to eliminate any non -conformities. What
action would be taken if the zoning change is not approved? I
can't answer that. I don't know, but the claim under the ADA
is... could be a real one and the city may have to accept that.
Mr. Ventura: Regardless of the zoning?
Mr. Taormina: Regardless of the zoning.
Mr. Ventura: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions for our staff? If not,
our petitioners in the audience tonight. If you'd like to come
forward, we'd like to hear from you. We'll ask that you start with
your name and address for our record.
Michael Morad, 20180 Westmore, Livonia, MI..
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Morad. Is there anything else that you'd like to
add to what's been already said tonight?
Mr. Morad: No, I think guys have covered pretty good part of it as well. But,
you know, we are willing to, you know, meet some conditions if
necessary. As mentioned, as mentioned before, but you know,
those would have to be discussed, but I mean, we're more than
open to pretty much any, any conditions with it. We don't have
roosters. We don't have any noise. You know, there's no noise
early on. They are limited to the outside. So, we have an
automatic door that opens at eight o'clock every morning. So,
they're not out, you know, very early, and that is you know, just
respect to the neighbors and keep the noise down and whatnot.
Not that they're very noisy. I know a few of you have stopped by
and checked it out, and what you heard is what you heard and
what you smelled is what you smell. They don't smell. We do
follow the Generally Accepted Agricultural and Management
Practices (GAAMP), which is like a practice from MDARD, about
manure and things like that, and that's how we clean it out. I do
clean it. The coop is cleaned every two weeks. It's kept clean. I
live there. I like my backyard. It's a big property. I enjoy it. My son,
June 13, 2023
30927
our son, is out there and our next son will be out there. I don't
want to walk in it. We try and keep it as keep as clean as we can.
Friendly as we can for everybody else. We've had a lot of support
from all of our neighbors. People we've never, you know, people
we've never met before stop by all the time and want to check it
out. Want to know what's going on, especially since that sign has
been out there, but we've had just a outpour of support from
people that live even on the other side of the neighborhood. They
want them too, you know, they want to know how it goes because
they want them too. I think they're a good thing. We also...I forgot
to mention this last week as well. You know the waste in our
house has gone down. All of our food scraps go into a bowl, it's
all kept. Everything is kept inside of the coop as well. Nothing is
put out into the run that's outside. Everything is kept into that
coop. That door also closes at...I adjust it throughout the year
depending on when daylight or when you know, when the sun
goes down. Right now, it closes at about 9:45 So, everything is
kept inside and nothing can get in there and we keep it that way.
I don't want food. I don't want water out there. I don't want to track
any other animals or any other issues. But we ... all of our table
scraps, all of our food scraps go right to them. So we've
eliminated a lot of our, you know, just waste from our house. We
feed them all kinds of different stuff, but you know we support
local businesses. I always buy everything from Chap's, right off
of Middle Belt, and I'll continue to do that for everything that I do
around my house too. But especially the feed, and all the pine
shavings for the bedding and everything else, try and buy as
much as I can from them and support local guys. But any of the
conditions, if anybody wants to discuss those, and we're more
than willing. We do have 16 right now. I don't see that number
going much higher. You know, as they get older, we'll probably,
you know, phase new chickens in, so there will be, you know, a
couple more here and there. But I don't see that number ever
reaching 20, That was discussed also, how many chickens we
can keep on an acre. That number is pretty high. We don't ever
aim to reach that number. But, you know, we're well below the
accepted number for keeping chickens on an acre. So that's
about it.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you. Mr. Morad, you've given us a lot of information.
I think we might have some questions for you. Yeah. Let's see if
there's any questions from any of the commissioners for our
petitioner.
Mr. Bongero: Mr. Moran, I met you the other night, and I got a chance to see
everything is nice and neat and clean over there. Explain with 16
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30928
chickens, how many eggs can you get? Like when they're really
producing like... what's the amount of eggs?
Mr. Morad: That's dependent on the breed of the chicken as well. But usually,
it's about, you know, one to two a day, could be three for some
breeds that are really hearty to produce. During the summer
months, right now, they're not old enough, we don't get them. But
you know, as the summer goes on the next couple of weeks, we
should start seeing them. But we'll probably see, like, minimum
one to one a day from each chicken within the next, you know, a
little bit.
Mr. Bongero: So, with that, do you intend on selling them or the extra eggs or
Mr. Morad: No, we do not sell. We you know, hand them out to families,
friends, neighbors, pretty much anybody that'll take them,
because we will end up getting overrun with them. We also, as
discussed in the meeting last week, it's an odd thing but you cook
them down and feed them back to them with the shells as well
because the calcium helps them produce better and you know,
larger eggs. So, we do that as well, once they have reached their
shelf life on the, you know, on the counter, but they do last for a
very long time ... we don't refrigerate them, they last for a very long
time on just the counter by themselves. As opposed to the ones
that you buy from the store because they are washed from the
store and when you don't wash them when they come right out,
they are they have like a protective. It's not it's not there's nothing
you can see. But it's like a protective layer that's on them. And as
long as you keep that on there, they'll last for like three to four
weeks on a counter.
Mr. Bongero: Gotcha. So, I know we talked about... the neighbor behind us they
have chickens, and I never hear him and... but I do hear a rooster
and it's hilarious. We don't mind. It starts about 430 in the
morning. He goes at night, and we laugh because we
think... it's...I love him. I really do. But it came up and I asked you
if you had any intention of getting a rooster because I could see
where that could be annoying, but you would never have a new
rooster.
Mr. Morad: No. My wife will never allow it either. Her uncle had one. It was
not nice. They can be nice; They cannot be nice. It depends on
the rooster, and it depends on the people that are around. But,
you know, we don't want one. We don't want fertilized eggs, you
know, but we just don't want one for just safety as well.
June 13, 2023
30929
Mr. Bongero: So with that, and I'm done... you would consider Mark's offer of a
conditional zoning?
Mr. Morad: Absolutely.
Mr. Bongero: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any additional questions?
Mr. Morad: If there's anybody that I don't know who got a chance to stop by
and, who didn't. You know, like David said he had stopped by
yesterday, but I do have a printed picture. I don't know if you want
to pass it around.
Mr. Wilshaw: You can hand it to Ms. Reece, and she'll pass it on.
Mr. Morad: So, this is what we have set up right now.
Mr. Wilshaw: That's helpful. Thank you. Yeah. Any questions from any other
commissioners as that comes around?
Mr. Wilshaw: This is your coop, correct?
Mr. Morad: Yeah. That is the coop and the run. Yep.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Thank you. And that's how that's how it's set up? That's
how it'll stay.
Mr. Long: Thank you. You mentioned that the door opens automatically at
Sam, and so I imagine they come out at their leisure.
Mr. Morad: Yes.
Mr. Long: And then it closes automatically at different times depending on
daylight. So, do you have to go out and corral them back in? Do
they know that the doors... is there like a bell that goes off, like a
five-minute bell? How do they know to get back in?
Mr. Morad: It's takes a couple of weeks, but we just checked on them at night
after I knew that door would close when we let the dogs out for
the last time at night. I would just go out there with the flashlight
really quick and check, and we had a few stragglers, but I still
check out every night just to make sure that none of them get left
out, then I'll put them back in there if need be. But the last two to
two and a half weeks haven't had any stragglers outside. So, they
just they kind of learn. They just learn.
June 13, 2023
30930
Mr. Long: I get it. So, they learn but you do have a check, so if for some
reason you were out of town, what happens? I know there was
some correspondence at your old neighborhood where people
would keep an eye on them. So, what's your plan if you're not
around?
Mr. Morad: Generally, if we're not around, my mother-in-law does stay at our
house because we have dogs just to keep them at our house
because they're fenced in there. They don't have a fence at their
house, and generally, if we're gone, she's probably staying with
our child. So, usually there's somebody there. We don't really
plan on taking any long vacations, but we would have, you know,
a friend sit over as well, to watch the dogs. We don't board our
dogs. So they're at the house.
Mr. Long: If we, I guess this is to Mark, if we change the zoning to RUF, his
pledge not to have roosters notwithstanding, he could have
roosters if it was changed to RUF. Is that correct?
Mr. Taormina: Well, any violations of a conditional zoning agreement could be
reason for the zoning to revert back to N2.
Mr. Long: So, if we had that in the conditions, that he couldn't have a
rooster, then that would be a violation, but if we just change it to
RUF, he could have roosters. Is that correct?
Mr. Taormina: Yes.
Mr. Long: So, if we just made a unilateral change without any conditions,
then we're opening the door to that he may not want them, but
the zoning would be changed, and the next person might come
in and decide that they want it.
Mr. Taormina: Right.
Mr. Long: So, we definitely need safeguards if we're going to...
Mr. Taormina: That would be my suggestion.
Mr. Long: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long, and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Taormina.
If we're going to do a conditional rezoning, that occurs at the City
Council level, that's not something that we will really noodle out
at this stage of the game, because it's the petitioner that has to
offer the conditions such as, I will not have a rooster, or IT only
have 20 chickens or whatever they choose to offer. They will have
June 13, 2023
30931
to offer that to City Council. So, at our stage, we can't really —we
won't see those conditions.
Mr. Taormina: You could if you elect to postpone this to receive a draft of the
agreement. Otherwise, you could recommend to City Council that
a conditional zoning agreement be considered as part of this
zoning change and list some of the items which the applicant has
agreed to.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and then that way, at least there's a record that can move
on to the council. So, they have an idea what we're looking for.
Mr. Taormina: Right.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, Mr. Long.
Mr. Long: Okay. Well, that's certainly one way to go. I guess another
question would be then also, if we denied it, the petitioner would
have 10 days to appeal to City Council, and they could come up
with the regulations that they're willing to submit to, as part of
their...
Mr. Taormina: Well, yes. Because this is a zoning change, it automatically goes
to council, so there would be no need, regardless of what your
decision is tonight. It's going to automatically go to the council for
a second public hearing.
Mr. Long: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. And I think those discussions are helpful
for the folks in our audience as well to have a feel for how this is
going to proceed. We are a recommending body and we're going
to make a recommendation of this zoning, either for or against,
which will then go on to City Council. So, you're going to go
through this whole process, again, have a public hearing and a
vote at the council level as well. So, you understand as a
petitioner and also anyone in the audience who's following this
item. Any other questions? Ms. Dinaro.
Ms. Dinaro: This is for Mark. This is probably for you. If we do conditional
rezoning, could we make it so it doesn't run with the land? It
reverts back after the sale of the property.
Mr. Taormina: You cannot do that. He can offer that, and you can accept it.
Mr. Wilshaw: Got it. All right. Thank you for that question. Any other questions
for our petitioner or our staff Mr. Ventura?
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Mr. Ventura: So, we're trying to get this done, but it appears to me and I'm
saying this to you, but it appears to me and Mark, I'd like you to
chime in here, that you have not come to us tonight with a petition
with conditions, number one. Number two, we are precluded from
offering conditions to you. We just can't sit here and say, we're
going to approve this with the following conditions. That's not
within our power, so we're in a position where we can deny you
tonight and you can then go to the City Council, because you're
automatically going to go there with conditions that you would
offer to them, or we could do something called tabling this tonight.
You could then consult with Mr. Taormina and the planning staff
to come up with the conditions that you would be willing to live
with and then you'd come back to us in a week or two, and we
would then have the opportunity to approve you with the
conditions that you've had worked out with Mr. Taormina and the
planning staff. So, have I said anything wrong or...?
Mr. Taormina: No.
Mr. Ventura: So, I guess what would you like us to do tonight? If a straight-out
approval is not...
Mr. Morad: Yeah. So, we would have to have conditions, like written out for
you guys, correct? It can't just be like....
Mr. Ventura: It would have to be part of our documentation offered to us by you
as part of your petition.
Mr. Morad: Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'd like to do that.
Mr. Ventura: So, you would prefer that we table it tonight and give you an
opportunity to do the conditions and then come back to us. Is
that what you're telling me?
Mr. Morad: Yes.
Mr. Ventura: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Wilshaw.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura.
Mr. Long: I wanted to make sure... that's fine, we can do it the way that you
agreed to with Mr. Ventura. That will slow the process down as
long as you're okay with that.
Mr. Morad: I mean, if that gives us the greater you know, you can...
June 13, 2023
30933
Mr. Long: That way you can have a yes recommendation, potentially, have
a yes recommendation from us, but either way, City Council will
still have the final say.
Mr. Morad: Yeah, yeah. No, that... Yeah, that's fine. I understand that but
that's totally fine.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. I would make some joke about getting his ducks in a
row, but there are the other questions from the commissioners.
Mr. Caramagno: So, Pete and Glenn, I heard what you said, and it seems logical
to go that route, no doubt about it. What also seems logical and
reasonable to me would be, you have a split decision in the
neighborhood, it sounds like there. You've got seven or eight for
you, seven or eight against you. I would...I think you should go
back to those neighbors and come up with an understanding that
maybe you can swing a few more that don't oppose you. This is
a good opportunity to have a conversation and say, Listen, I'm
not trying to build a zoo here. I'm trying to keep 15-16 chickens,
and nothing else. No llamas, no cows, no goats. And, you know,
you might have neighbors with dogs that are gonna be barking at
these chickens all night long. There might be more to the story
here that you can do to appease some of your neighbors and
have a friendly resolution for this, and then again, maybe not at
all, but I think it's a good opportunity. Even the ones you don't
like, and they don't like you, and to try to have a conversation, a
conversation. Maybe you come to some agreement.
Mr. Morad: I just have one. How do I ... do I get the letters that were sent in to
you guys? Or how do i... they are public? Because I have no idea
how or who sent letters who did I mean?
Mr. Wilshaw: It's all public record, we can get to that you.
Mr. Morad: Okay.
Mr. Morad: So, my only other question is regarding the letter from my wife,
which we had discussed last week. I obviously have done a lot of
research on this before doing this, and we had... I've read other
cities doing this as well, and other people going through this, you
know, and I think it was Sam that said it and I think I remember it
was Peter, you guys said well, this letter basically covers you, but
couldn't really get a straight answer. Is that so if this all gets
denied, does that letter cover us or are we just going to be kind
of poked by the city or is that just we're not going to answer that
kind of deal?
June 13, 2023
30934
Mr. Wilshaw: I'll try to answer as best I can. I'm not a lawyer by any means.
Mr. Morad: I get it. I know like I said I had talked to
Mr. Wilshaw: This is not legal advice by any stretch of the imagination, but if
the city was to deny this process all the way through, you go
through City Council and you get denied, what we've heard is that
you may have an opportunity to under the Americans with
Disabilities Act to have a valid case. In which case, my
understanding is then you would essentially have to sue the city.
Am I correct, Mr. Taormina, in saying that he's going to need
some sort of a judgment to say, Hey, we've looked at this, and
this is in fact a valid ADA situation, or is it that it's just something
that the city accepts as a ADA exemption? I don't I don't know
exactly how that...
Mr. Taormina: I cannot predict what would occur under those circumstances. It
could be either. If the city continues with enforcement, then it
could very well result in some type of claim against the city
including litigation. If, on the other hand, the city chooses not to,
with the belief that they do have a valid claim, then, then maybe
it rests there.
Mr. Wilshaw: Right. So yeah, so I guess an analogy would be a person who
puts a structure in front of their house for a ramp for a wheelchair,
and the city says, well, you can't do that. That's a violation of
some sort of building code or something, and then they come
back and say, well, I have this medical condition that says, I need
a wheelchair and ADA protects me and the city says, Okay, we
accept that and then the issue becomes moot at that stage. It's
kind of a similar situation, is it not?
Mr. Taormina: Yes. However, I would submit that when it comes to structures,
it's probably more 'black and white' than an issue like this
involving an ADA claim. This is probably more of a gray area. But
yes, there are similarities.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. So not a great answer for you. It's not a clear answer, I
guess, but that's the best I can do.
Mr. Morad: I appreciate it, and like I said, I've talked to a lot of people bought
it, I've also, you know, I've reached out to the Emotional Support
Animals of America, talked to them, and figured out what I need
to do with them as well, because they help, you know, support
people like me in these cases, and I did talk to them a lot about it
for quite a while. So I would have to register with them, and they
June 13, 2023
30935
would, as well, you know, back us and support, you know, the
owners and people who have them registered and whatnot.
Mr. Wilshaw: Yeah, I think it's at least safe to say that the evaluation of the
medical necessity and the ADA aspect of this is not a point that
lies with us. It's not for us to decide, and it's probably not for this
council to decide. It's more than the enforcement end of things
and that's basically...
Mr. Morad: We just didn't want to be, you know, having a knock on the door
every week about it. Oh, you're not allowed to have these? Oh,
exactly. Okay, see you next week, Dan. I have dealt with Dan in
zoning quite a lot already. But, you know, I just didn't want to have
to deal with that. That's, you know, that's why we're here. We're
I ust going through our processes and do what we've got to do.
Mr. Wilshaw: We appreciate the fact that you're going through the process.
Mr. Morad: We are doing what we gotto do and, you know, we just want to
do our thing on our property.
Mr. Wilshaw: Oh, I understand. Is there any other questions? I
Ms. Dinaro: I have one more question, Mark. If we... If this does get denied,
wouldn't the next course of action be to get a variance from the
zoning board?
Mr. Taormina: If the City Council denied this? The Morad's could choose to seek
a use variance through the Zoning Board of Appeals. That would
be up to them. We cannot force them to file a request for a use
variance.
Mr. Wilshaw: Excellent question. That lets you know that there are certainly, at
this point, still many paths that this can go toward denials, toward
approvals, and so on and definitely we'll see where things go as
we continue on. So, that's a good point to bring up. Any other
questions, comments from any of our commissioners, before I go
to the audience? I think we've exhausted our questions up here.
Mr. Morad, if you would like to take a seat for just a moment, I'll
see if there's anyone else in the audience wishing to speak for or
against this item? If there is anyone, please come forward to our
podium? Got a couple of folks coming forward. Good evening,
ma'am. Again, we ask you start with your name and address.
Pauline Shots, 33233 Norfolk Street, Livonia, MI. I am across the street from them.
I don't hear the chickens. I've been in their yard. I get migraines,
so all smells, all sounds are very excruciating for me, and I've not
June 13, 2023
30936
ever smelled the chickens, even when I'm back at the coop. So,
they've opened the coop, the chickens have come out, and I've
not smelled anything. I also would be willing to check on the
chickens if they're out of town and their dogs. So, I'm right across
the street, I'm married, so my husband and I would take care of
helping them with those things. And we don't have any issues.
They've done a lot of improvements in the house, on the yard,
everything looks great. It's at the very back of the lot. It's like not
interfering with anything. So, I'm not sure why we're having a
meeting, but, you know, it's just I know we have to do those
things. But there's not a problem. Actually. I don't know why we're
here. Okay.
Mr. Wilshaw: I appreciate your comments. Thank you for speaking. Anyone
else wishing to speak please come forward.
Teresa Fredericks, 33333 Norfolk, Livonia, MI. Right across the street and right
next to this woman is our condominium, Pinebrook condominium.
We have seven units there, and many of the neighbors like Mike
and Meghan, I believe they moved in about two years ago, a year
ago and I met them, people like them, but I would urge you to
deny this because we are concerned about vermin and wildlife. I
have personally seen rats, not in the last three or four years, but
I one time saw a rat walking right across the street in front of her
house toward their property. They didn't live there then, and
another time I saw a rat, right nearby within about 20 feet. We
haven't seen rats. I haven't seen any rats lately. I haven't heard
of any, but we have had constant battle. I've lived there 26 years
since 1996 when they were built. We've had a constant battle with
raccoons and have cost us a lot of money to rebuild our roofs to
clean out our attics and reinstall insulation. We have animals
around there. We had foxes breeding in the back of our property.
We have deer, they're eating things. We don't need any more
wildlife in the area, and we're concerned that it will just attract
more animals to the area. We don't need any more. Another thing
we're concerned about is that if it's rezoned, is it going to be
limited to chickens? I think under the law, they've could have
goats or whatever. We definitely... if they do have... if they are
allowed to have anything, we need restrictions. Also, if the
property is transferred, how do we know if the new owner isn't
going to bring in goats or whatever, it's a residential area. It's
really a nice area of different homes. There's one block down from
us that has a ... it's a beautiful block to walk along. The whole
area's residential except for the medical complex that is just to
the west of them. So, it's definitely just a residential area. And I
would ask that you deny it. Thank you.
June 13, 2023
30937
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for your comments. Anyone else in our audience
wishing to speak to this item? Gentlemen, please come forward.
You can line up if you wish to make things faster. It's okay. Good
evening.
Laura. Sokana, 36055 Ladywood Street, Livonia, MI. And you probably want to
know why someone on Ladywood would be concerned on
Norfolk. A couple of reasons. They're my children. I am the
mother-in-law, and there's a couple of things. I would be there.
We've had chickens before. We've had chickens in Livonia. I
grew... my family has been here in Livonia since 1966. Went back
and forth on Norfolk to Tyler School for seven kids. So, I'm quite
aware of the whole area, and I'm quite aware of the animals that
would be attracted, but she's saying rats. Well, you can't control
rats when you have a restaurant, so she needs to be concerned
in some other areas, first of all. Secondly, the raccoons, the deer,
whatever comes in, we are in progress. I grew up at Eight and Gil
before Eight and Gil was even Eight and Gil. Timothy King was
found there. Okay. So as far as these two, they take care of their
yard, they take care of their children, their child, their future
children, child, children, because I'm going to be having another
one. And I'm there quite frequently. So, I just have to say their
progress in that area. They're making it nice and clean. The only
thing that's there right now would be the commercial would be
from the office buildings to Eight Mile. Everything is residential.
Yes, but it could very well be rural, and I do have to say that
people need to listen. People need to not make judgments, and
as far as the ADA is concerned, it's very real, and as I'm sitting
back here, and I'm seeing headshakes. Don't make that judgment
until they know. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak? Please come forward.
Gentlemen.
Anthony Tiberia, 36876 Ravenwood Drive, Westland, MI. I've known Megan and
Mike Moran for about 10 years. I've known them for about 10
years or so before chickens and after chickens and both
residences. They do a very good job, not only with the way that
they keep the chickens, how they maintain them, as well as their
property. You know, their goal has always been to have this type
of land to be able to do these types of things. They bought a
property that did need lots of work, and it didn't have the greatest
curb appeal. They've done a very good job of not only adding to
the home's value, but also the subdivision value that they're
actually in. There's more than just how it's zoned. You want good
neighbors like them to be able to take care of their property,
maintain it and provide value even added value for their homes
June 13, 2023
30938
as well. They do a very good job, they're very responsible people.
If he tells you that he's going to set conditions with you, he's going
to stick to them. You're not going to have to go back and visit to
find or assess again. They've done a very good job of the property
currently. There was many overgrown bushes, trees and
everything. You couldn't even see the house, and like I said, it's
really added value, and if you guys do come to an agreement,
maybe table it for another time. They have no problem meeting
the conditions that you either suggest or they come to terms with
Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Great thank you for speaking. A gentleman's coming behind you
Good evening sir.
Ron Irvin, 20181 Shadyside, Livonia, MI. Yes, there's always been a restaurant
there and there's always been some kind of rats, but we did have
an incident where another neighbor down the street did have rats
or had chickens and the place was loaded with rats and the city
ended up coming in and shutting them down. So yes, there's will
be rats or will be raccoons but this is going to increase the
numbers, and as far as the smell and stuff like that, I know it's... it
all depends on the wind but it will be there and I bought property
in the city. I didn't buy it in farmland. So, I would... my vote would
be for denial. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Irvin. Any other folks wishing to speak for or
against this item feel free to come forward. Good evening, Miss
Moran.
Megan Morad, 20180 Westmore Street, Livonia, MI. I know that the rats have been
brought up. There are a lot of things that chickens are rumored to
do, but they kill rats. There are farms that have chickens strictly
for that problem, and I have seen firsthand what these chickens
will do to not only rats, but raccoon and chipmunks and squirrels.
The whole reason why we started with this chicken venture in our
old home, was because I do suffer from a mental illness, and it
was suggested that I try coming back to nature to help what the
medication can't compensate for. It has helped me. it has helped
me not only have a routine and have more respect for the people
and the wildlife around me, but it's also helped my family and I
come together, and not just my husband and my son. We've got
family from 10 years ago that, you know, friends. We learn new
things every day about how the circle of life happens, and it just
teaches us that you need to be respectful for one another, and
yeah, you can be worried about the rats, you can be worried
about the animals that come. Chickens aren't going to affect
raccoons, or foxes or deer that have been there longer than we
June 13, 2023
30939
have, but what the chickens will do is make sure that the rats stay
away. Now, I know, Ron mentioned that there was a gentleman
further down the block that had them, and it posed a problem
because they were bringing rats in. There is a little more history
on that. He let them free range. They were in and out of the
garage, three houses down. There was another gentleman who
had turkeys in between those houses and there was a woman
who fed squirrels. We do not plan on ever letting those chickens
out of that coop out of that run. Like my husband said, we love
our yard, and we like to enjoy it. We also have an unorthodox
hobby that happens to help me find peace in life. So that's all I
wanted to say. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: I appreciate your comments. The gentleman wishing to speak.
Good evening, sir.
Paul Vanderplow, 20095 Shadyside, Livonia, MI. First, sir, Mr. Morad, I thank you
for being educated. It was a very well-done presentation, and
while this kills me to even insinuate that we should be able to tell
people what they should do or not do on their own property. The
only thing I guess I had questions with were some of the open-
ended statements of "we don't see ourselves going above 16. We
don't see this", quite frankly, if he is educated as he is and
responsible as he is, that's great. I've been around long enough,
and I've worked in enough cities to where, unfortunately, the next
owner or something kind of creeps out away, and now we don't
have 16, we have 100. I'm not saying he will do that. I'm not
saying even insinuated that. Unfortunately, I've been in too many
properties where it started out with good intentions. And then it
flies, no pun intended, it flies out of control. So, if it was me and
against her, I never want to say what you can and can't do on
your own property, but in this kind of setting in the neighborhood,
there would almost, I would think, it would be a lot more plausible
if there were some restrictions on it to where those open-ended
statements are closed. To where it isn't and I only plan on doing
16 it becomes something else. So, for me, I'd just like to hear a
little tighter control on it, and again, not for Mr Morad, but anything
in the future, you know, so it doesn't balloon out of control. But
thank you for hearing me. Appreciate it.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for your comments. We appreciate that. Anyone else
wishing to speak on this item? There's one more person coming.
Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, ma'am.
June 13, 2023
30940
Maria Stanulet, 20055 Shadyside Street, Livonia, MI. I want to say that a lot of the
neighbors in that area do have a lot of land, and we can all petition
the Council to raise animals and have our area result like Mike
did. We live in more than half an acre. All my next -door neighbors
have half an acre across the street we all have ... they all have one
acre. If we all decide to do that in the middle of a city and start
raising animals, what will this turn into? My neighbor do that, I'm
gonna go do that. Because we live in a residential area. Like
somebody said, we bought our homes in the city. If we wanted to
live out there in the land, in the farm, I would have bought my
home in the farm. So even though the chickens are restrained,
and he said 16 chickens, maybe 20,they give on an average of
what, one or two eggs a day, let's say 25 eggs a day, times seven
days a week, divided by 12, you get like 15,000 eggs, and he's
not planning on selling. That's a lot of eggs to give your family
and that's your problem, what you do with the eggs, definitely,
and I do worry about rats, and raccoons and groundhogs because
I have seen big holes in my yard, and I do not know where they're
from. We try to maybe, they could be a possums, they could be
raccoons, I don't know what the holes are, and I'm trying to find
out what they are. With chickens and their poop... and he said he
cleans them every two weeks. I am afraid, cleaning them every
two weeks, 16 chickens, 20 chickens, that's a lot of trash. So
obviously, we are probably going to have some extra animals that
are going to migrate into other people's yards and into other
people's trash cans, even though they're covered. Raccoons are
notorious for taking trash for taking covers out. Rats do the same
thing and I just don't want to see a city area turn into something
like a farmland and I understand it is for your mental health, I
understand that, but I also am concerned about what's going to
happen with the neighborhood. If a rezoning is possible, other
neighbors might come around and ask for rezoning also, and we
don't want maybe what might not happen. But that can happen
not now, maybe three years from now, five years from now. And
that's my concern. Okay,
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for your comments. Anyone else wishing to speak for
or against this item? I don't see anyone else wishing to speak for
or against this item. Mr. Morad, is there anything else that you
would like to state before we make our decision? I always like to
give the petitioner the final word. Thank you. We don't want to I
just want to preface it by saying we don't want to engage in
debate between things, but if you want to address anything that
was brought up feel free, just don't personalize it.
Mr. Morad: Yeah, no, no, I mean, I, 1 see where everybody's coming from,
and I understand it, but I have cameras up, they go off, if anything
June 13, 2023
30941
comes near it. They've been out there for two, three months. Yet
to have any incident with animals. And again, the one down the
street that was probably more of a hoarder situation that was
going on than a actual what we're doing, I understand that people
are worried about, you know, other things, but there are other
houses in our neighborhood that are zoned RUF already. They
have stopped by. They have chickens. They're already in the
neighborhood, and whether or not everybody back here knows
that, they're there. That's how quiet they can be. That's how
discreet they can be. They might not have as many...I know of
somebody else that has 10. He's on the other side of the
neighborhood, but they are zoned that way. They have them and
even in ... like I said, where we used to live, Plymouth and Inkster,
there was a few houses over there zoned RUF that had them, as
well, and there were others that were not zoned RUF. You know
we take pride in what we do with everything, and I think that about
covers it. But you know, we try and keep up on them as much as
we can, and I understand where everybody's coming from, but
everybody in life has different goals, and unfortunately, I can't live
where I want to live an hour and a half away from work, but you
know, things happen and life's gotta go on. But I think that's about
it.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Mr. Morad. Is there any other questions from any of
the commissioners of our petitioner? Before we make our
decision? I just want to give one more opportunity in case any
issues were brought up. I don't see any questions from any of our
commissioners. So, thank you for coming this evening. I'm going
to close the public hearing. You can go ahead and have a seat
and a motion would be an order from our commission.
On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Bongero, and adopted, it was
#06-35-2023 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held
by the City Planning Commission on June 13, 2023, on Petition
2023-04-01-03 submitted by Michael Morad under Sections
13.13 and 13.15 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended,
requesting to rezone the property at 20180 Westmore Street,
located on the east side of Westmore Street between Farmington
Road and Shadyside Street in the Northwest'/4 of Section 3, from
N2 (Neighborhood) to RUF (Rural Urban Farm), the Planning
Commission does hereby table this item to the meeting of July
11, 2023.
FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of
Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, as amended.
June 13, 2023
30942
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Dinaro, Bongero, Ventura, Caramagno, Wilshaw
NAYS:
Long
ABSENT:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
Mr. Wilshaw: Please get in touch with our planning staff and they can work with
you and on that, those conditions. Thank you for coming. Thank
you and everyone else for coming tonight on this item and if you
want to follow along, you can come back on July 11.
ITEM #2 PETITION 2023-05-02-04 Axe Parlor
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2023-
05-02-04 submitted by The Axe Parlor requesting waiver use
approval pursuant to Section 6.09 of the Livonia Zoning
Ordinance, as amended, to operate an On -Premise Tasting
Room Permit in conjunction with a Micro Brewer license to allow
the sale and consumption of beer at 30959 Five Mile Road,
located within the Livonia Plaza shopping center on the south
side of Five Mile Road between Henry Ruff and Merriman Roads
in the Northwest 'Y4 of Section 23.
Mr. Taormina: Thank you. This request is to allow beer consumption in
connection with a new indoor recreational use called the Axe
Parlor. This business is in the Livonia Plaza Shopping Center,
which is on the south side of Five Mile Road between Henry Ruff
and Merriman Roads. The Plaza contains a total of approximately
133,000 square feet of retail space, divided into 20 tenants. The
plaza is anchored by a Kroger grocery store and the TJ Maxx.
The zoning is C-2 (General Business) and P (Parking). The Axe
parlor is a target axe throwing venue. It's located near the center
of the shopping center adjacent to the TJ Maxx. The unit
measures approximately 5,000 square feet. The floor plan
submitted with the application shows the layout of the unit. It has
6 axe throwing lanes, each with a table and four chairs for
viewing. There's a fowling area, a lounge with a small dry bar,
four bar stools, and seating for 20 persons. There are two
restrooms and then some back of house operations, including a
work area. The Axe Parlor is requesting to offer beer for on -site
consumption. A licensed microbrewery called Red Rocker
June 13, 2023
30943
Brewing Company in Canton, Michigan, is the manufacturer and
would be the distributor of the beer. Red Rocker proposes self -
distributing the beer that it manufactures to Axe Parlor customers.
Patrons would order the beer directly from Red Rocker, which
would provide delivery, identification verification and then a point
of sales. The delivery services would be done by a Red Rocker
employee who would be stationed in a vehicle off the premises.
This unique method of serving customers regularly is not
addressed in the city's zoning regulations. In a C-2 district,
brewers, microbrewers, brew pubs, and distilleries are treated as
a waiver use under Section 6.09 of the zoning ordinance. Initially,
it was thought that Red Rocker would utilize an on -premises
tasting room permit as an extension of its existing microbrew
license to serve beer at the Axe Parlor. However, the Michigan
Liquor Control Commission (MLCC) only allows microbrewers to
operate tasting rooms in conjunction with and in the same
premises where onsite manufacturing is conducted, which is not
the case with the Axe Parlor. In other words, if a microbrewery
manufactures beer and has a tasting room permit, they can either
have that tasting room located in the establishment where they
have their main brewing operations, or can operate a tasting
permit elsewhere, but the location would have to be engaged in
manufacturing operations. They're not allowed to have just a
tasting room. There are some types of licenses that allow this, but
not microbrewers. Self -distributing alcohol in a manner proposed
by the Axe Parlor and Red Rocker is not something that the city
has ever dealt with. The Livonia Police Department has not
completed its review of this petition. Special Investigator
Ronayne has been communicating with the MLCC to determine
what, if any, additional license or permit is needed to self -
distribute and consume alcohol using the method proposed by
the petitioner. Questions remain. And since the Livonia Police
Department has not provided the Commission with a
recommendation, staff feels this item should be tabled until one
can be provided. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the
departmental correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please.
Mr. Taormina: Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue
Division, dated May 18, 2023, which reads as follows: "This office
has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request
for a Tasting Room Permit in conjunction with a Micro Brewer
license to allow the sale and consumption of beer at the property
located at the above referenced address. We have no objections
to this proposal. A further detailed plan review will take place
when this division receives an official plan set." The letter is
June 13, 2023
30944
signed by Brian Kukla, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the
Division of Police, dated May 24, 2023, which reads as follows: `I
have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have no
objections to the proposal."The letter is signed by Paul Walters,
Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection
Department, dated June 1, 2023, which reads as follows:
"Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced petition has
been reviewed. This Department has no objections to this
petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of
Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated
May 19, 2023, which reads as follows: "1 have reviewed the
addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are
no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer,
I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by
Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the
Treasurer's Department, dated May 31, 2023, which reads as
follows: "In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office
has reviewed the address connected with the above noted
petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable
for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The
letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of
the correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Taormina. Any questions for our planning staff?
Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Do we have a timetable on when the
police expect to opine on this?
Mr. Taormina: I do not. I spoke with Mr. Ronayne this evening, and he is still
looking into this. He has some concerns. He has discussed this
with several people at the MLCC trying to resolve exactly what
can be done and what is allowed under the State's licensing rules
and regulations. But that notwithstanding, I think what he would
like to hear this evening is precisely how the operation would be
done. He wants to get as much information as possible before
rendering an opinion. And he also has to consult with the Chief of
Police on this matter.
Mr. Long: If we were to approve or deny this tonight, it would still again go
on to council or it could be, and so the police department would
still have the ability... I mean, it would be accelerated, but they still
would have time in order to do their study before it went to council.
Mr. Taormina: He did not indicate how much time he needed. He expressed
concerns, clearly. But if this should move forward with an
approving resolution, that would provide roughly two weeks of
June 13, 2023
30945
time for him to provide an analysis to City Council. If, on the other
hand, it was denied and the petitioner chose to file an appeal, that
would provide well over a month between now and the time when
the public hearing would be held.
Mr. Long: Okay, so I'm sure we're gonna get a chance to hear from the
petitioner and we can find out...I know that other similar places
have the ability to sell beer and wine and I want to know how this
could adversely affect their business or if they will be able to wait
it out. The second question that I have is while I applaud the
creativity that's gone into this in order to try to get to a spot where
they can find a way to deliver beer to their customers, but I also
worry about the precedent it sets and is there a way if we were to
approve this, is there a way for us to sunset the permit. In other
words, in the write up it says that they've or in the supplement
that they provided it says that they're working with attorneys in
order to get a permanent license, but they expect that to take six
months to a year. So, if we approve this, could we put a sunset
on this of a year and a half or two years so that if they can't get
their liquor license and that point you know, we we're not just
creating a full time work around I guess.
Mr. Taormina: The ordinance allows the Commission to impose reasonable
conditions on the granting of a waiver. The actual length of time
is another matter. Six months to a year should be more than
adequate time to secure a permanent license. We've done
hundreds of these over the years, and we know that it can be
done within that timeframe. A year and a half would seem
excessive.
Mr. Long: Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. Any other questions for our planning staff?
Mr. Bongero: So, the investigator, he's looking into this. It's kinda like a third
party coming there and providing the beer, right? So, what's he
investigating? I guess...I missed last week study. So, I'm catching
up.
Mr. Taormina: The first thing he needs to establish is whether they have the
proper license and permits in order to self -distribute in the manner
they're proposing. He has not been able to receive confirmation
from the MLCC that Red Rocker has the authority to do what
they're proposing. So that's step number one. Number two is what
the police think about this method of service alcohol. Somebody
sitting in a truck in the back of the business with refrigerated beer
and people using an app or however they're going to purchase
June 13, 2023
30946
beer and having somebody come in through the back of the
house, sell them the beer, check ID, all those things. It's like I said
earlier: this has not done anywhere that I'm aware of, at least not
on a regular basis as a part of a business operation. The police
want that control. They want to understand everything about the
operation before they render an opinion.
Mr. Bongero: Gotcha. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions for our staff? If not,
the petitioner is in the audience, so feel free to come forward to
our podium and we ask that you start with your name and
address.
Eric Schubert, 25753 Pondview drive, New Boston, MI.
Alden Wong, 31550 Staman Circle, Farmington Hills, MI.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, and you're representing both Red Rocker and the Axe
parlor.
Mr. Schubert: Yes, Red Rocker.
Mr. Wong: And yeah, I'm co-owner of Axe Parlor.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add from what
you've heard so far tonight.
Mr. Schubert: I just like to say that what Bongero just mentioned about the
control and security... what we're proposing is not a BYOB, they
cannot bring anything on site. They cannot take anything off site.
Everything will be controlled and cannot leave. It has to be
consumed at that facility within... and I see everybody has the
drawings... on the first page, you'll see the yellow lines, it has to
be consumed just within those yellow lines. It cannot go to the
bathroom across the line into the axe lanes, and it cannot leave
the back or front of the property, and that is our job is actually, not
only to deliver the beer, but we are also trained to make sure that
somebody's not over served. If somebody is clearly intoxicated,
they are cut off and we'd handle that and we also are the ones
responsible for monitoring, making sure nothing leaves that site
as well. There'll be signs, there'll be us in the back, there'll be
management at the front that'll make sure that nobody is taking
any drink product out of the building. We're also keeping it very
simple. It's just cans, at the very most, two types of beer. It's going
to be a very, very simple controlled operation, and I understand
Mr. Taormina said that, you know, nobody's done this before, but
June 13, 2023
30947
it actually is able to be done, even though it is very unique and
hasn't been approached before.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you. I appreciate that. Is there any thing that from
the Axe Parlors perspective that you would like to add?
Mr. Wong: Yeah, we're just... regarding us obtaining the liquor license. That
was just an estimate on our part six months to a year. We've
never applied for a liquor license before. So, we're not exactly
sure what the timeline is, but we're definitely willing to accept
conditions if it ends up being a year, but I agree, you know, a year
and a half is excessive, and we definitely expect to have our liquor
license by then.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. I appreciate that comment.
Mr. Schubert: And just to announce or to also make the comment, conditions
are absolutely fine with us too. We understand that this is a
stopgap process, and putting a sunset timeline on that is not a
problem. Limiting the number of types of beer that can be served
there is not an issue. You know, those conditions are absolutely
understandable, and we were on board with those as well.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Thank you. Mr. Schubert. Is there any questions from
any of our commissioners for our petitioners?
Ms. Dinaro: So, can you tell me a little bit about your competitors? Do they
have bars? Is this normal in, you know, the axe throwing places?
And if this is denied, and you can't have a stop gap, will you be
able to stay open?
Mr. Wong: Yeah, I can't speak on that. All of our competitors in the
area... there are two in Novi, the Hub Stadium and Battle Axe.
They both have full bars there. Detroit Axe has three locations in
the Metro Detroit area and they all have full bars. Legendary Axe
in Westland has a full bar. So, it is kind of the norm rather than
the exception to have alcohol, and so your second question that
our customers number one question right now we get asked all
the time is when you guys can have alcohol. So, it would definitely
impact our business if we don't have this stop gap and that's why
we're looking in to collaborating with Red Rocker in the
meantime.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you.
Mr. Long: Just satisfy my curiosity, if it's restricted, I'm trying to understand
the restrictions on the 0 line, I certainly understand why you don't
June 13, 2023
30948
want it in the axe lines. I'm just curious, why isn't it allowed in the
bathrooms? What's prohibits that? Or is that just something that
you're choosing? Because you don't want the mess or
something?
That's not a Red Rocker regulation.
Mr. Wong: Yeah, I think ofjust the business partners, they had proposed that
to not have it in the bathrooms. I don't know if it's because... Yeah,
obviously, the cameras aren't there. So, I don't know if there
would be minors in the bathroom consuming. That's probably the
biggest issue is not knowing who is in the bathroom consuming
the alcohol.
Mr. Long: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for our petitioner?
Mr. Wilshaw: I don't see any... Mr. Caramagno.
Mr. Caramagno: If you have a customer that comes in ... say, I come in there, and
I'm bringing a party with me and I want to order a case of Red
Rocker beer. I buy from you on the app, you bring in 24 beers.
How do you regulate who's drinking those? And whose
responsibility is it to regulate? Is it the Axe Parlor or is it Red
Rocker to be responsible for who is drinking that?
Mr. Schubert: it's going to be our responsibility to actually deliver it, and we do
not intend on delivering a case of beer. That's not the case. If
there's 24 people in there, that's not a problem, we'll deliver 24
beers. But if there's four people in there, we're not gonna allow a
case of beer to be sold. It's just gonna have to be done on a,
maybe a two per person and that way we are able to monitor, you
know, who's drinking, how they're drinking, and if they are in a
small group, or our large group, I should say, and there is
underage people, that's got to be taken into consideration as well.
Like, you know, if there's one adult and three kids and he orders
four beers, we're not gonna allow that we know what possibly
could happen. On top of that, you know, the Axe Parlors
management and crew will be there as well. So, it's a combination
that they're going to watch and we're going to watch and make
sure that this is done in a safe and legal manner.
Mr. Caramagno: What kind of hours are you talking about? Is this going to be a
seven day operation? Is it noon till midnight? Because it only on
Fridays and Saturdays? What is the what's the proposal?
June 13, 2023
30949
Mr. Wong: Yeah, the Axe Parlor is open five days a week, Wednesday
through Sunday, and I'm assuming Red Rocker is going to be
there during all of our business hours.
Mr. Schubert: The close time, I believe is what, 10:00 or 11:00 o'clock?
Mr. Wong: Wednesday and Thursday we close at 10. Friday, Saturday at 11.
Sunday at nine.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay
Mr. Schubert: So it's not going to have bar hours. It's normal restricted.
Mr. Caramagno: How long has the Axe parlor been in business?
Mr. Wong: We opened on May 6, just over a month.
Mr. Caramagno: How is business?
Mr. Wong: In the summer? It's our slow season so it's kind of hit or miss but
being brand new, we've been doing okay so far.
Mr. Caramagno: How aggressive are you at going after your own personal Axe
Parlor liquor license? Where are you at in that process?
Mr. Wong: We have spoken to an attorney so the process has begun as of
June 2. So very early stages.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay. As far as the Red Rocker Where else are you peddling
beer? What other locations? Do you peddle beer out of your
truck?
Mr. Schubert: Yeah, we self -distribute to bars, restaurants, as well as
individuals. We're at about 80 locations across Southeast
Michigan. We have customers ranging from Grand Rapids up to
Flint, Saginaw, and all around the Detroit area that we deliver to
as well.
Mr. Caramagno: You deliver to liquor stores, party stores, where else do you sell
liquor out of the truck? What other locations? Do you do that...
Mr. Schubert: It's beer, not liquor, but we deliver to a lot of restaurants in the
area. A lot of bars in the area, and only a handful of party stores
in the area. And then of course, the individual users, we deliver a
lot to their homes. And that's standard and legal up to 2,000
June 13, 2023
30950
barrels a year we're able to self -distribute, and we are below that
volume right now, way below.
Mr. Caramagno: I understand that you distribute, but where do you do direct sales
to a facility that's for consumption? Where do you do that?
Mr. Schumbert: Well, there is Belleville Yacht Club is one of the ones we do that
as a club that we deliver to, and we do deliver to individuals that
order from right from the Yacht Club. On top of that, they have a
license to resell, so we deliver to them to resell to boaters that go
out on their boats on the weekends.
Mr. Caramagno: When you see you have a truck that parks there at the Belleviile
Yacht Club all day and just sells whenever their hours are, and
you sell right to...
Mr. Schubert: We don't do that directly out of the truck. No, we have a truck
available that delivers as needed. So, if they call us and they say
we're out, we're right there within a matter of a couple hours to
deliver more.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay, so this is the first venture for you to sell directly to a
consumer? To have a truck sitting.
Mr. Schubert: Yes, yes, but it's the same premise. That's the same self -
distribution premise. It's just not that we're driving around making
the deliveries, were sitting there waiting. When the orders come
in, we take them right inside.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay.
Mr. Schubert: Same method, though.
Mr. Caramagno: Where would you propose parking that truck, van, whatever
you've got? Where would you propose parking that behind the X
Prowler? Because the reason I ask is it's loaded with government
army cars back there. Where would you park that truck at?
Mr. Schubert: If you look, there's a yellow kind of lined off area that's right out
their back door. That is their loading dock area that's secure for
them. It's not taking up a parking spot. And we have a very small
minivan and that's where we would park it right there only during
hours that it's open. Once it's closed, we're out of there. We're not
there until it reopens. So, it's only there during hours, and they
have a spot that will not take up any parking spots. It's right down
there.
June 13, 2023
30951
Mr. Caramagno: That's the questions I've got. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Caramagno. Any additional questions for
petitioner? I don't see any additional questions. Is there anyone
in the audience wishing to speak for or against this item?
Mr. Schubert: Just want to make one other comment too. I did reach out to the
police inspector as well today and we're very happy to talk and
walk through this with him on an expedited manner to answer any
questions you might have.
Mr. Wilshaw: Appreciate that. Thank you. Is there anyone wishing to speak for
Oregon's asylum? I don't see anyone else coming forward. We'll
give you again, the last word. Is there anything else that you guys
would like to say before we make a decision?
Mr. Schubert: Nope, I'm just, you know, I would appreciate your guys's
understanding and the fact that we're trying to make sure that this
Axe Parlor can survive over the next six or 11 months or 12
months, however long they take to get their liquor license. This is
not a, you know, a permanent long-term thing. This just is going
to allow them to keep their customers keep growing their base,
while they're going through that lengthy process. We went
through it as well, and it takes a lot longer than you think, and it's
very tough for some businesses to be able to ride that out. So,
we hope to be able to work with them and work with the city to
make this happen on their behalf.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right, thank you. I do have one question I'm going to ask as
I'm... just because itjust came to my mind. Looking at the pictures
of the facility, there are counters essentially are seats, if you will.
Seated counters behind each of the throwing lanes, and you have
a yellow line, essentially going through the middle of that, correct?
Which implies a person sitting there at the counter can drink. A
person who's in the throwing lane area on the other side of the
counter can't.
Mr. Schubert: That's correct. Yeah, it's common for people to try to drink from
that side after they throw an axe. They might want to grab a beer
and have a drink but we're going to refrain from doing that. Just
for safety reasons. We want alcohol on just the seating side of
the table.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, so that's exactly where I was leading to, is how are you
going to enforce that? So, you're gonna have a person in that
area that's gonna say, hey, you need to sit down if you're going
to drink?
June 13, 2023
30952
Mr. Schubert: Yeah. Each lane will be manned by an axe master who
supervises the axe throwing and they make sure that no one's
going to be drinking any type of liquid while in the throwing arena.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, the reason I asked that is because I know at bowling alleys,
it's kind of a similar layout in the sense of a counter is usually
behind bowling lanes, and they don't want you to have any drinks
in the bowling lane area, obviously, because they don't want
spills.
Mr. Schubert: Exactly.
Mr. Wilshaw: But people obviously reach over the counter and grab your drinks.
So, I was curious how you're going to enforce that.
Mr. Schubert: Yeah, like I said, we have an axe master supervising each group.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Excellent. I appreciate that. Thank you. If there's no other
questions or comments from anyone. I don't see anybody. I'm
going to look for a motion. Thank you for coming. Oh, we did go
to the audience. I will check one more time. Is there anyone in the
audience wishing to speak? No one's jumping up. All right, good.
Is there a motion?
On a motion by Dinaro, seconded by Long, and adopted, it was
#06-36-2023 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to City Council that Petition 2023-05-02-04
submitted by The Axe Parlor requesting waiver use approval
pursuant to Section 6.09 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as
amended, to operate an On -Premise Tasting Room Permit in
conjunction with a Micro Brewer license to allow the sale and
consumption of beer at 30959 Five Mile Road, located within the
Livonia Plaza shopping center on the south side of Five Mile
Road between Henry Ruff and Merriman Roads in the Northwest
% of Section 23. be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. City Council waiving the 1,000-foot separation requirement
between this location and the nearby Class C license
establishment pursuant to Section 6.09(2)(A).
2. That this location shall be in compliance with the Michigan
Liquor Control Act, and
June 13, 2023
30953
3. This waiver use for this license is granted to this petitioner
only, and any new user of this license is required to seek
and receive City Council's consent prior to the transfer.
4. This waiver use for this license is granted to this petition for
one year only from the date of the City Council approval.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion?
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Dinaro, Long, Bongero, Ventura
NAYS:
Caramagno, Wilshaw
ABSENT:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution.
ITEM #3 PETITION 2023-03-08-03 FGN Holdings
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2023-
04-01-02 submitted by FGN Holdings pursuant to Sections 13.13
and 13.15 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended,
requesting to rezone the properties at 19380 and 19384
Newburgh Road, located on the east side of Newburgh Road
between Seven Mile Road and St. Martins Avenue in the
Southwest'/4 of Section 5, from RUF (Rural Urban Farm) to N1
(Neighborhood).
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. This item was tabled at our May 9
meeting. Is there a motion to remove this item from the table?
On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was
#06-37-2023 RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission on June 13,
2023, on Petition 2023-04-01-02 submitted by FGN Holdings
pursuant to Sections 13.13 and 13.15 of the Livonia Zoning
Ordinance, as amended, requesting to rezone the properties at
19380 and 19384 Newburgh Road, located on the east side of
Newburgh Road between Seven Mile Road and St. Martins
Avenue in the Southwest /4 of Section 5, from RUF (Rural
Urban Farm) to N1 (Neighborhood), does hereby remove the
item from the table.
Mr. Taormina: At this point, we have no new information to present. The
petitioners are here and can address the commission.
June 13, 2023
30954
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, sounds great. Thank you, Mr. Taormina. We will now go to
the petitioner. Feel free to come forward to our podium and let us
know what has transpired between our last meeting and this one.
Good evening.
Frank Yaldo, 19233 Newburgh, Livonia, MI. How are you guys doing? We tried to
approach the people on the south side. I called a few people in
the city to get the underground to see how much it would cost to
tap in because the sanitary is on the west side. So there's two
private lines that go directly to Newburgh Road that serves the
property on 19380 and the property that is directly south so they
have to put up a whole new sanitary, public sanitary, from boring
underneath the road all the way to Newburgh to service nine
houses. If we went to the N2 zoning that we are talking about,
well with the price of the development cost we made a few offers
to the people south and they're not going to negotiate on the
price. They would not budge off their price to make it worthwhile.
Obviously, I told Lou about it, try to get the N1, if the N1 doesn't
get approved, then I will just take his and keep it as RUF and just
do three houses. It would affect the south side, because
obviously, if we do RUF of his property right now, on the south
side, they would have to do RUF, so instead of putting nine
houses total, would eventually only be eight houses. If the south
side ever developed, if they ever sell, they ever do whatever they
choose to do with it. They would just not budge off their price, and
with the amount of development cost, it's not worth what they're
asking for it.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any questions or comments from any of our
commissioners in regard to this item?
Mr. Caramagno: I was writing the notes here. Ao you originally came to us with
how many parcels on this property?
Mr. F. Yaldo: Four.
Mr. Caramagno: And you're saying a sewer problem?
Mr. F. Yaldo: Well, we came originally with four on his property. When we
talked to the private hearing in the beginning, somebody question
I believe was Mr. Ventura what would happen on the south side
because it would affect what would happen on the south side. So,
when we came to the public hearing, last time, we tabled it to
negotiate with the people on the south side to develop everything
all at one time. If they were willing to come to the table and
negotiate, I'd been able to go to N2 zoning instead of the N1 that
June 13, 2023
30955
we're asking for and put nine houses on everything all combined
together, if they will want to budge off their price. Unfortunately,
they're not. So, on his just private property. Obviously, you'd like
to get four to make them more worthwhile. So, you want to take
a loss on it. If we don't get the four, I will just keep it RUF and
build three houses.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay. And last time the issue if I remember, right, there was an
issue, the neighbors were bent out of shape about the narrow lots
that didn't really fit the area. So your current proposal is for three
lots at 70 foot wide. What's the width of the lots?
Mr. F. Yaldo: No, no, no, the current proposal is right now, it's N1 zoning. If it
gets denied, then I would just comply with RUF and he has
enough space, 236 road frontage. I would have to readjust them
to do RUF and every single lot would be 78.66 and meets all
classifications. Because he has two parcels currently right now,
one is 186 feet and one is 50, together combined is 236 feet.
There is no sense in even going N@ zoning or rezoning anything.
I will just keep a RUF and put three lots on there at 78.66 a lot,
which RUF requirement is 75 road frontage. He has enough to do
that. He'd like to get four to break out to make a profit, not take a
loss on the property, but unfortunately, with the people on the
south side not coming to the table, they're not negotiating,
residents in the area really didn't want narrower lots. I think it was
going to be 59.6 feet. So, we just have to keep it RUF.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Any other questions? Comments?
Mr. Bongero: Little question there. It looks like there's still an unpaid water
sewer bill. Is it still open?
Mr. F. Yaldo: We paid that. It was paid.
Mr. Bongero: Okay. It's shown that in here it still owes $796.
Mr. F. Yaldo: It was paid.
Mr. Bongero: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions or comments? Is
there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this
item? There is one person getting up. Mr. Yaldo, if you would
please step aside for just a moment we'll give a opportunity for
some of our residents to make a brief comment. Good evening,
ma'am.
June 13, 2023
30956
Patty Riggio, 37204 Bretton Drive, Livonia, MI. I'm the president of the Willow
Woods Homeowners Association, and we are not in favor of the
N1 zoning as it has been expressed in the past. It doesn't match
the homes in the area or the lot sizes that are in the area. We
think it would be not to the benefit of our homeowner's association
to have smaller property sizes and smaller homes that backup to
our subdivision. So, passing that on with you for your
consideration. Thank you very much.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, ma'am. I believe there's a couple other folks who
would like to make a comment. So we will let them do that. Good
evening, ma'am.
Kathleen Mancini, 37146 St. Martins Street, Livonia, Mi. I'm against the N1 zoning
for the smaller lots.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you. Appreciate those comments. Anyone else
wishing to speak on this item? I should have said I'm dealing
delinquent in my duties here and on pending items, audience
participation is supposed to require unanimous consent of the
commissioners. I assume that there's nobody in the commission
that objects to hearing those comments, because you've heard
them now. Anyway, thank you. We're just a really nice group
here, and we like to always give people a chance to comment. If
there's no other comments from anyone in the audience. Mr.
Yaldo, is there anything else that you'd like to say before we make
our decision? You're all set? Okay, thank you. I will now go to the
commission to make a motion. A motion is in order.
Mr. Taormina: I would like to go back and explain the various zoning options.
The N1 district has a minimum lot width of 50 feet. What they're
proposing is four (4) conforming lots of equal size, approximately
59 feet. Thus, the lots would exceed the N1 requirements by nine
(9) feet. If the zoning remained the same, RUF, including the land
to the south, they could develop three (3) conforming 75-foot-
wide lots. With roughly 236 feet of frontage to work with, there
would be 11 extra feet. Looking at the property to the south,
dividing that into the minimum lot width under RUF zoning, 75
feet, you end up with five (5) lots and an extra 47 feet. If you add
the 47 feet with the 11 feet, there's not enough to get a ninth
homesite. However, under N2 zoning, the minimum width is 70
feet. For the Petitioner's land, it's possible to get three (3)
conforming lots with an extra 26 feet. With N2 zoning to the south,
it would be possible to get five (5) conforming lots with a surplus
of 61 feet. If you add the surplus on land to the south, 61 feet,
with the surplus from the Petitioner's land, 26 feet, it's possible to
get a ninth lot. That is what Mr. Yaldo is trying to explain as far as
June 13, 2023
30957
the difference between N2 and RUF zoning is one potential
additional building site. All the lots would all be at least 70 feet in
width, as opposed to 59 feet. I just wanted the Commission to
understand what your options might be, whether to consider N2
or RUF zoning, looking at the future development of the property
to the south?
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Taormina. I appreciate that explanation, and it is
worth noting to the commission that really we have more or less
three options available to us. We can approve the rezoning to N1
and they can move forward with the proposal as they've
presented it. We can always rezone to a lesser intensity zoning,
which would be an N2 in this case or we can deny the item which
would leave it at RUF.
Mr. Taormina: I just wanted you to understand the full...
Mr. Wilshaw: And there are differences between each one.
Mr. Taormina: Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Any questions or comments?
Ms. Dinaro: So just for clarity, they do not want N2. They either get N1 or they
want it to stay the same. Is that my understanding?
Mr. Taormina: Well, I think what the N2 zoning would still allow in the future, the
remnants of both parcels to be combined for a ninth lot. You
cannot achieve that with the RUF zoning. I'm not sure if they fully
understand that. Mr. Yaldo certainly does. They're willing, I think
just to develop the three lots, whether or not they would all be of
equal size or not. That would be their decision whether or not they
see the future opportunity of working with either the current
owners of the property to the south or some future owner, I don't
know.
Mr. Wilshaw: There's a benefit to them for an N2.
Mr. Taormina: Yes. A possible future benefit.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay.
Ms. Dinaro: Sorry. Just a follow up question to that. And right now, it's not
feasible because the sewage line is on the south property that
they would have to tap into?
Mr. Taormina: I'm going to let him respond to that. He's more familiar with this.
June 13, 2023
30958
Mr. Wilshaw: Please come forward so our vast TV audience can hear you.
Mr. F. Yaldo: So, the main sanitary right now, there's water on the east side of
Newburgh. The sanitary is on the west side. The two sanitary
lines that are feeding the two properties are both private lines. So,
there's six tinge lines. We'd have to bring a brand new public
sanitary, over and this aside from doing a storm drain to. With the
amount of development costs that has to go in and what they're
asking, there's no way. It's, they're gonna end up being
approximately just completely, just to develop it, almost $140,000
a lot with their price. It's not worth that much money. It doesn't
make any sense. I'd prefer to get N2 zoning for the future,
absolutely if she never budges off that price. The problem is we're
going to N2 zoning, and she never moves, and we want to
develop and put three houses. If I go 70 feet, 70 feet, that last
one is, as Mr. Taormina said, whoever buys that last house will
never sell me that small strip that's 15 feet to add down the line
to create a ninth lot. So, at that point, I would just keep it RUF.
They would be losing on the south side if it stays RUF because
they're only gonna get five houses.
Ms. Dinaro: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Caramagno.
Mr. Caramagno: Thank you. That answered my question.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right. Great minds think alike. And any other questions,
comments? Mr. Ventura.
Mr. Ventura: So, the advantage of the N2 zoning is totally dependent upon this
petitioner and some unknown future owner of the south parcels
configuring their lots in such a way as they might be able to
cooperate and come up with the ninth lot?,
Mr. Taormina: Correct.
Mr. Ventura: It's totally speculative because the petitioner said he's got to put
that land somewhere, and it may not be available to the parcels
to the south to create the extra lot.
Mr. Taormina: Yeah, it's a difficult situation, because the value probably rests at
that point, absent any kind of agreement or something that looks
possible. It's better for them to keep those lots as wide as possible
for the value.
June 13, 2023
30959
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions? If not, a motion will
be an order.
On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was
#06-38-2023 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2023-04-01-02
submitted by FGN Holdings pursuant to Sections 13.13 and
13.15 of the Livonia Zoning Ordinance, as amended, requesting
to rezone the properties at 19380 and 19384 Newburgh Road,
located on the east side of Newburgh Road between Seven Mile
Road and St. Martins Avenue in the Southwest'/4 of Section 5,
from RUF (Rural Urban Farm) to N1 (Neighborhood), be denied
for the following reasons:
1. The petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the
proposed zoning change would be compatible with and in
harmony with the surrounding neighborhood.
2. The proposed zoning change is inconsistent with the
established pattern of the surrounding development and
would adversely alter the area's character.
3. The proposed zoning change is not needed to develop the
property.
4. The proposed zoning change would allow lots that are
narrower than what exists throughout the surrounding area,
and
5. The existing RUF zoning is more consistent with the
established pattern of development and character of the
area.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Caramagno: So. the rezoning of the property does not obligate him to build
anything right now. Right? There's no obligation to build anything
right now. The property is just getting rezoned. The proposal is
so he's not obligated to build anything. Could this be reversed
before something's built?
Mr. Taormina: It still has to go to Council.
Mr. Caramagno: Proposing if it passes, could it be reversed if nothing's ever built
here? Back to N2?
June 13, 2023
30960
Mr. Taormina: It's going to remain RUF under the current resolution.
Mr. Caramagno: Well, that's what I mean, could there be ... could they seek a
rezoning in the future?
Mr. Taormina: Absolutely. Yeah. There's nothing that prohibits them from
coming back in the future.
Mr. Caramagno: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Makes sense. Clear?
Mr. Caramagno: Absolutely. Clear as mud.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, any other questions from anyone?
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with a denying resolution.
ITEM #4 PETITION 2000-12-02-38 Hunters Grove
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2000-
12-02-38 submitted by Craig Girard, on behalf of Hunter Grove
Condominium Association, requesting to amend Council
Resolution #785-01 and the approved site plan to replace existing
landscaping with a vinyl privacy fence, located on the east side
of Newburgh Road between Five Mile Road and Ladywood Road
in the Southwest'/ of Section 17.
Mr. Taormina: Thank you. This request would amend the approved site plan and
landscape plan for Hunters Grove condominiums, which is
located on Newburgh Road just north of Five Mile Road. Hunters
Grove is a 36-unit attached cluster development that received a
special waiver use approval in 2001. It was approved as a
Planned Residential Development, mainly because of the
parcel's narrow depth which measures roughly 240 feet. As a
result, the distance between the right-of-way along Newburgh
Road and the rear of the first row of condominium buildings is
only 30 feet. Within this area, the approved plan showed a four -
foot -high berm planted with various evergreens, deciduous trees
and shrubs. The plan also showed a row of 11 Sugar Maples that
would have been spaced evenly along the right of way of
Newburgh. However, the maples were later replaced with 26
Bradford Pear trees. Those are the trees that you currently see
June 13, 2023
30961
between the curb and the sidewalk and would not be impacted as
part of this project. The current plan removes the original planted
material on top of the berm and flattens the top leaving it about
one and a half feet in height. For screening, the trees and the
shrubs would be replaced with a six-foot high white vinyl privacy
fence that would be installed on top of the berm and would run
the full length of the property, which is over 800 feet. The new
fence would be setback roughly 5.5 feet from the right of way and
6.5 feet from the sidewalk along Newburgh Road. It would stop
short of the two driveways to allow proper sight distance for
motorists for both the sidewalk and the roadway. The new
landscaping, including various species of shrubs, ornamental
grasses and flowers would be planted on the side of the fence
facing the road, and I believe the petitioner submitted a rendering
depicting what that would look like. The types of shrubs that they
would plant at the base of the fence are also shown. Mr.
Chairman, there is no correspondence related to this site plan
amendment petition.
Mr. Wilshaw: All right. We did receive this rendering which the we asked the
petitioner to provide at our study meeting, so we appreciate that.
Our petitioners are in the audience. Feel free to come forward to
our podium and we can discuss this item.
Craig Girard, 15768 Hunters Grove Court, Livonia, MI. I'm also the property
manager for Hunters Grove, and I want to pass these pictures
that we took as to why we want to do this.
John Watkins, 15207 Hunters Grove Court, Livonia, MI. I am the president of the
Hunter Grove Condo Association.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Girard, Mr. Watkins for coming this evening. Is
there anything else that you'd like to tell us from what we've
already discussed so far?
Mr. Girard: Now, this is a tough decision by the board and the homeowners
to take down the pine trees, because for 20 years, or almost 20
years, they've given us a nice buffer for noise and privacy, and
as you can see, by some of the pictures, the privacy is now gone.
The noise factors elevated because they're dying, and you can't
replace them because they don't sell them because there's a
disease for blue spruces and white spruce, that you can't even
replant them. And there's one picture there of stuff that we've tried
to replant and has died immediately within a year. And we, just to
be honest, we can't afford to just keep putting more and more
money into this. So, we looked at the fence. We had Mark out
June 13, 2023
30962
almost three years ago, I think it was and showed him what we
wanted to do. And this is probably the most economical way for
us to do this project. We still will have some type of berm, but we
can't leave it at that height because the support for the fence
would have to be ... the poles would have to be about 12 to 16 feet
long. So, we want to taper it and the contractor we looked at doing
it is going to spread it all out and seed it in the back. We haven't
decided whether we're gonna seed or sod the front. We have
sprinklers there so the stuff will live. And that's about all I mean,
unless you have any questions.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, thank you, Mr. Girard. Is there any questions of our
petitioner?
Mr. Wilshaw: Nope. No questions? Mr. Caramagno..
Mr. Caramagno: I know we talked last week or last time you were here let's say.
There's no other type of plantings on that berm that would
survive? Blue spruce trees? Grass? That grows tall? There is no
other landscape options that you feel will suffice.
Mr. Girard: If you do that, you don't get the privacy. That's why we're looking
at keeping the berm at about a foot, and then putting a six-foot
fence on top. In one of the drawings that was submitted before.
shows the sight line from the street and what you can see, and
that's the biggest concern for the neighbors. Because if I had my
way, I would of pulled those pine trees out already, because three
just fell in my house. We had that storm in March. And they're
really in bad shape, and if we can get started on this this year, we
we're going to.
Mr. Watkins: Another issue that we have is a lot of our residents are elderly.
And there's a fear factor there, whether it's real or perceived.
They feel it. For example, my neighbor's 97 years old next door
to me. She's got about four locks on her front door. We have quite
a few elderly folks that are fearful. I say that not to be comedic,
but they really do fear That's just another point, and we are going
to have I think, we are going to have a gate on that.
Mr. Girard: There's going to be one or two gates put in so we can access by
walking through to get to this sprinkler timers. And that will be
locked on the inside.
Mr. Caramagno: Has there been any thought about leaving the berm higher and
putting a shorter fence four -foot fence versus a six-foot fence.
June 13, 2023
30963
Mr. Girard: Because by the time they come in Anglin construction, I'm sure
you're familiar with them. They're going to do the work, and by
the time they come in to take these pine trees out. The berm is
going to be all distorted anyway, so that's why they're going to
take in spread what dirt is left to make it presentable to put a
fence. We could leave the berm the way it is, but we'd have to
bring in dirt because there's going to be massive holes when all
the stumps come out. I think there's probably roughly 150 trees
along there.
Mr. Caramagno: What I'll say is the concern I've got is the starkness of that white
face As for 800 feet or whatever, whatever that is there, that's
just... it's a stark difference to what's there now. And that is, I gotta
say some of the concern I've got.
Mr. Watkins: I was told tonight by my Supreme Allied Commander it will not be
white.
Mr. Girard: No, we're looking at ... when we first submitted this, we have an
engineering firm that did this for us, and they put white but we're
looking at maybe the taupe color fence. So, it's not as sharp like
you said. We're not in favor of bright white.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay, thank you for the clarification.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions or comments? Mr. Ventura.
Mr. Ventura: Have you looked at alternative plantings like Arbor vitae, and
other kinds of dense upright shrubs that are commonly used all
over the city to prove to constitute living walls, such as you've
had?
Mr. Girard: We did discuss that, and I would invite you to come in and see
what happened to the Arbor Vitaes in March. We are putting
come alongs next to the decks to pull them back up, because
they've been there, again 18-20 years, and to replace them with
four footers takes all the privacy away from the people in the
decks.
Mr. Ventura: I am going to have to disagree with you. I have 60 Arbor Vitaes
in my yard, and they take a little bit of maintenance, but they
produce a living wall.
Mr. Girard: Which we're trying to get away from on this whole project. And if
you drove through our inside, you can see what we've done to
make it more maintenance free, because the maintenance is
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30964
costing us $10,000 to $15,000 a year just to replace dead bushes
and trim, and that's why we've gotten the stones on the inside,
which we will, excuse me, which we will have on hillside under
the fence with a weed barrier. So, weeds can't come up. And the
stones will come down to where the grass is and where the
bushes are. So we're trying to make it and most of the stuff you
see in there is a maintenance free shrub that we're putting in. It
cost a fortune have people come in and try every year. It costs a
lot of money to have people take Stella Doras and cut them down
every year. We have to pay for that. There's only 36 of us, and
our landscape bill... the grass bill is our highest cost there. So, to
answer your question, that's why we're looking at maintenance
free things that we can put in. You pay up front more money but
down the road we won't have to increase our dues where people
can't afford to live there.
Mr. Wilshaw: Got it. All right. Any other questions from any of our
commissioners? There is no one left in the audience to comment.
Mr. Girard: Thank you for your time.
Mr. Wilshaw: I do have one question that I will ask. I usually save my questions
for the end. Have you done a cost analysis, sort of a side by side
cost analysis of what it would cost to put this fence in land, and
you're putting in some new landscaping and tearing out old
landscaping, the cost of what this project would cost versus
removing the existing landscaping and replanting with a new
landscape plan that involves Arbor varieties or other types of
pines and so on? Do you have a side by side comparison?
Mr. Girard: We did that when we had Mark out before. Mark even came out
and we looked at the cost because the berms gotta be readjusted
because to take those pine trees out, they're such big rooted. So
that's where the cost is, to redo that berm. But the cost of the
fence is lower than the cost of buying all new bushes or trees or
whatever you want to say. So, we did do an analysis, see which
way is the best way to go. If people wouldn't worry about the
privacy, I would like to go back in and redevelop that hole from
the sidewalk all into the backyards and come in and out make it
real nice with different trees and that. Like I have pictures of
different places that have that. But cost wise it doesn't make
sense. We're already looking at over $150,000 to do this project
and 36 people got to foot that bill. And we did do an analysis and
the fence is cheaper than the bushes. The labor has to be done
no matter which way you go. Okay.
June 13, 2023
30965
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for answering that question. If there's no other
questions or comments from any of the commissioners, then a
motion is an order. Thank you, gentlemen.
On a motion by Long, seconded by Caramagno, it was
RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2000-12-02-38
submitted by Craig Girard, on behalf of Hunter Grove
Condominium Association, requesting to amend Council
Resolution #785-01 and the approved site plan to replace existing
landscaping with a vinyl privacy fence, located on the east side
of Newburgh Road between Five Mile Road and Ladywood Road
in the Southwest '/4 of Section 17, be approved subject to the
following conditions:
1. That the Landscape Plans, identified as Sheets 01, 02 & 03,
all dated April 21, 2023, prepared by Michael L. Priest &
Associates, are hereby approved, and shall be adhered to.
2. That the Landscape Plan, identified as LP-1, dated October
17, 2022, as revised prepared by Michael L. Priest &
Associates, is hereby approved, and shall be adhered to,
and
3. That all conditions imposed by Council Resolutions #524-01
and #785-01, in connection with Petition 2000-12-02-38,
shall remain in effect to the extent that they are not in conflict
with the foregoing conditions.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Caramagno.
Mr. Caramagno: I'd like to see that it's not a white fence, that it's a earthtone fence
if this goes, to guarantee that.
Mr. Wilshaw: So, acceptable to all right. Maker and secondary have said the
condition to make it a non -white fence is acceptable or earth
tones. If there is or any other discussion on the motion? No other
discussion if the Secretary is ready, please call the roll on a
motion to approve
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion failed due to lack of support.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Long, Caramagno
NAYS: Dinaro, Bongero, Ventura, Wilshaw
June 13, 2023
30966
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
On a motion by Dinaro, seconded by Ventura, it was
#06-39-2023 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2000-12-02-38
submitted by Craig Girard, on behalf of Hunter Grove
Condominium Association, requesting to amend Council
Resolution #785-01 and the approved site plan to replace existing
landscaping with a vinyl privacy fence, located on the east side
of Newburgh Road between Five Mile Road and Ladywood Road
in the Southwest '/4 of Section 17, be denied for the following
reasons:
1. That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the
proposed amendment is in the best interest of the City of
Livonia.
2. Allowing this type of replacement along the development's
Newburgh Road right-of-way would be detrimental to the
aesthetic quality and appeal of the surrounding area, and
thereby, inappropriately altering the character of the
neighborhood.
3. That the proposed transformation would have a negative
effect and would set an undesirable precedent in the area.
4. That the proposed change is incompatible to and not in
harmony with the other neighborhoods in the area, and
5. That the landscape screening and berm along Newburgh
Road shall be permanently maintained in a healthy
condition.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with a denying resolution.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Dinaro, Ventura, Bongero, Wilshaw
NAYS:
Long, Caramagno
ABSENT:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
ITEM #5 APPROVAL OF MINUTES
June 13, 2023
30967
1,199th Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of
the Minutes of the 1,199th Public Hearing and Regular Meeting
held on May 9, 2023.
On a motion by Bongero, seconded by Long, and unanimously adopted, it was:
#06-40-2023 RESOLVED, That the Minutes of 1,199th Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on May 9,
2023, are hereby approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Dinaro, Bongero, Long, Ventura, Caramagno,
Wilshaw
NAYS: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,200th Public
Hearings and Regular Meeting held on June 13, 2023, vq adjourned at 9:01 p.m.
CITY PUAWING COMMISSION
agno, Secretary
ATTEST:
Ian ilshaw, Chairman