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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2021-09-27 - Appeal of Denial - Quik Stop - Pet. 2021-07-02-12 CITY OF LIVONIA PUBLIC HEARING Minutes of Meeting Held on Monday, September 27, 2021 ___________________________________________________________________ A Public Hearing of the Council of the City of Livonia was held at the Livonia City Hall Auditorium on Monday, September 27, 2021. MEMBERS PRESENT: Scott Bahr, Vice President Jim Jolly Brandon McCullough Rob Donovic Laura M. Toy Cathy K. White MEMBERS ABSENT: Kathleen E. McIntyre, President OTHERS PRESENT: Mark Taormina, Planning and Economic Dev. Director Paul Bernier, City Attorney Sara Kasprowicz, Recording Secretary The Public Hearing was called to order at 7:19 p.m. with Vice President Scott Bahr presiding. This item is regarding the appeal of the denial of the Planning Commission regarding Petition 2021-07-02-12 submitted by Quik Stop, Inc. requesting waiver use approval to add fuel pumps and operate a gasoline service station at 37405 Ann Arbor Road, located at the southwest corner of Ann Arbor and Newburgh Roads in the Northeast ¼ of Section 31. The Public Hearing is now open. There were 23 people in the audience. Bahr: We will start by going to Mr. Taormina to introduce us to this. Taormina: Thank you. Again, Mr. Chairman, this is an appeal of a denial by the Planning Commission for a waiver use petition involving the addition of fuel pumps and to operate a gasoline station. The existing retail plaza, as you indicated, at the southwest corner of Ann Arbor Road and Newburgh Road. The zoning of the property is C-2, General Business. A little bit about the history, originally, this site was zoned P-L, Public Land, as it was owned by Livonia Public Schools and that was through a dedication by the developer of the Newburgh subdivision. The property was rezoned to C-2 in 1973 and then it was developed about ten years later as a one-story office building. The existing building on the property is about 16,500 square feet. The unit where the gas station would operate was most recently occupied by a Family Video. This space of a Quik Stop, is about 3,900 square feet, it is in the northeast corner of the building. There is a Biggby Coffee, but I believe they either have moved out or in the process of moving. The majority of the building is now vacant. The operation of the gas station is allowed with waiver use approval. This is 2 under the provision set forth in Section 11.03a of the zoning ordinance, that’s the old zoning ordinance. The surrounding neighborhood as you can see from the zoning map, there is some commercial zoning immediately to the west of this site, however, residential zoning abuts the property to the south as well as to the west. When looking across Newburgh Road on the east side, there are other residential home. Immediately to the north is the Newburgh Lake, zoned P-L, Public Land. The only change to the site would be the addition of the fuel pumps as well as an overhead canopy, storefront and the main entrance to the gas station would face north, towards Ann Arbor Road. There are five fuel pumps shown between the building and Ann Arbor Road. The pumps would impact, we estimate twenty-six parking spaces. The vehicles would continue to enter and exit the site using the existing driveways, both on Ann Arbor Road and Newburgh Road. The pumps would be covered by a free-standing canopy, that on the plans, measures 28 feet by 129 feet, piped canopy would have a roof be limited to 18 feet and the setbacks, respectively would be 33 feet from Ann Arbor Road, 40 feet from Newburgh Road. There was an interior plan that was submitted, this is the front of the building, on the bottom part here, this is the part facing Ann Arbor Road. Quik Stop would be located here, which is actually the northeast quadrant of the building. These are the other lease areas that are identified as lease area A and lease area B. Biggby Coffee, as I mentioned previously, and what is showing there are storage units located on the opposite side of the Quik Stop. The floor plan shows a large display and sales area located here, the majority of the space. The coolers along the back part of the unit would be a sales counter as well as a restaurant, and office and a utility room. In terms of parking, the ordinance requires a parking at a ratio of 1:150 square feet of useful floor area. The site has 89 parking spaces with the elimination based on the proposed site plan, 89 spaces are required, but with the elimination of the spaces needed for the fuel pumps the site would have a remaining 81 parking spaces, so it would be slightly deficient. In terms of signage, we don’t really have information on signage, as I indicated, Planning Commission did reject this petition after th holding a public hearing on August 17, the denied the proposal. With that, Mr. Chairman, I’d be happy to answer any questions. Bahr: Thank you, Mr. Jolly. Jolly: Thank you. To address the petitioner here. Looking at this at a first pass, the Planning Commission got this absolutely right. This seems like this is a piece of property that is large enough for a better, potential usage than the proposed gas station as you’ve requested. I think when we sit here in 2021, I think our reliance on gasoline is going to be increasingly diminished over the next couple of years, if not decade or longer. I don’t like the close proximity to Newburgh Lake. All in all, this is not a great proposal to come before us. We’ve seen a lot of proposals come before us that are creative, in terms of reusing the space. I’d argue, I guess you are being creative, but it’s not creativity that I buy into. We are well served with gas stations in our community as far as I can tell. Mr. Taormina can probably speak to this better than I can, but as far as I understand it, there is not a gas station that has been added to the landscape that was not previously a gas station, for quite some time. Mr. 3 Taormina, do you know when the last new gas station that was not on a gas station site that was added to the city? Taormina: Kroger at Eight Mile and Farmington, I believe. Jolly: When was that, five years ago, at least? I don’t see the overwhelming reason to do this, so my intention is to vote no. Bahr: Thank you, Mr. Jolly. Let’s direct questions to Mr. Taormina right now, we’ll have a chance to talk to the petitioner questions later. Anybody have questions for Mr. Taormina? Rob. Rob then Laura. Donovic: Thanks, Mr. Vice President, Mr. Taormina, so, if I understand this correctly, the actual elevation of this property sits so much higher in the air than the roads parallel to it? That will not be changing, the property itself, the building won’t be changing, they just intend to add overhang canopy and fuel pumps and do whatever rehab? I know that’s a low-level explanation. Taormina: It touches on pretty much the extent of the major improvements of the site, that is correct. Donovic: Then maybe this is better for the petitioner, but in terms of the storage units, I looked through the packet, is that your typical garage door that opens up and they are storing stuff in there or is that an internal storage unit facility in there? Looking at the renderings, it kind of looks like there may be some sort of opening entranceway to the storage units. Taormina: No, I’m not sure what that indicates. They are showing storage, but the plans don’t indicate any type of access points into those units, so I’m not sure what the intention is there. Donovic: Thanks, Mr. Taormina. Bahr: Thank you, Mr. Donovic, Ms. Toy? Toy: Thank you, very much, Mr. Vice Chair. A few questions, Mark, if I may. Do we know what type of gas station they are proposing? Taormina: I do not off the top of my head, it’s a Quik Stop, but I don’t know if they work with any other brand names. Toy: It seems like there’s quite a few gas stations in that area, if I’m not mistaken, just down the street, there is a Mobile. I didn’t have a chance to look as you go farther south towards Westland. There’s a lot of concerns here, the topography of the land and the traffic patterns that go with that land, seem that it could be very troublesome. I know that’s a very busy yacht club over there, it gets a little crazy over there from what I hear, but anyhow, it is a traffic area, which is good for business, but it’s also bad when we have that much residential within that area, I anxious to here from the petitioner, but I, like Mr. 4 Jolly and Planning Commission, are very reluctant to this plan. If all those storage units will be part of the gas station, I think you’re building into kind of a party store atmosphere, if you will. That’s my assumption, are they going to have packaged liquor? I don’t know. If not, would beer and wine possibly be sold there, Mark, maybe, I don’t know. Taormina: That is a separate waiver use approval process and then the City’s long- standing policy to not allow sale of alcoholic beverages, packaged or otherwise for our gasoline stations. Toy: Right, right, I know Costco and a few other places try. Also, in the past, we had one where they wanted to put a gas station at Merriman and Schoolcraft, that site was very tight too, for the amount of pumps at the time. I think McCann and Pastor were on then, not going back in history but, once again, five pumps is a lot of pumps as well. Again, I’ll be anxious to hear the petitioner and perhaps what they have to say. Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Bahr: Councilman McCullough. McCullough: To the Chair to Mr. Taormina. Just to clarify, so if I’m thinking right on this whole complex, which we’re going to have some commercial, other tenant space in here, but this was P-L originally, then it went to C-2, now we’re looking at this. These neighbors, and I’m looking at this abstractly, the neighbor to the south is 10 to 15 feet away from the corner of that building. I understand there is a wall there, now we’ve got 9846, which is across the street and then you’ve obviously got some properties to the west. I just think, looking at this, for everything that the Planning Commission, I am completely in tune with whatever they said with the denial. The traffic flow and the compatibility in the area, is there any minimum setback that we have for a requirement for, obviously for C-2, but nothing for an operation that is definitely going to be changing the hours of operation from this site. Even when Family Video was there, it closed probably at midnight, I would assume the gas station is going to try to be open late night. I tell you what, if I’m one of the neighbors that surround this, I’m not going to be too happy. There’s nothing setback wise, is there? Taormina: Well, the setbacks that apply, there are no specific setbacks as they apply to residential property. It used to be, that prior to an approval, that the petitioner would have to garner 60% of the resident’s approval from a 400-foot radius around the facility. That is no longer a requirement of the zoning ordinance. That’s not directly a setback issue, but it speaks to some extent, indirectly. There are setback requirements for the canopy, but they’re showing compliance with that, yes. McCullough: Thank you. Bahr: Councilwoman White? White: Mark, when was this land zoned from P-L to its current zoning classification? 5 Taormina: 1973. Bahr: All right. With that, we will give the petitioner an opportunity to speak. Please state your name and address for the record, we would appreciate that. Demerest: Good Evening, my name is Mark Demerest, I’m the attorney for the petitioner. My firm is Demerest Law Firm, the address is 322 W. Lincoln in Royal Oak. I have with me here, Jameel Alhadiss, who is the owner of Quik Stop and Dennis Banaszak, who is the Engineer. I can answer most of your questions, but they can also address operational and site planning questions. We also have Jason Yuhasz, who is representing the owner of the building. We have submitted an appeal letter. I do have some additional information I would like you to consider. I do have some packets if I could distribute those to the Councilmembers. As a number of you have pointed out, this is a busy intersection. There are five lanes on Ann Arbor Road and four lanes on Newburgh Road. It is in an area where there is traffic that would be in need of a gasoline station. You have the appeal letter and I’m not going to repeat everything that’s in there, but I do want to hit some of the highlights. Mr. Jolly indicated that he thought this was not the best use. I would point out, in terms of traffic impact, that this was reviewed by other City departments; the Police Department, the Department of Public Service has no objections to this. In terms of the proposed use of the project, or the proposed type of gas station, it would likely be a Marathon or Sunoco. There would be no alcohol served. It would be a convenience store with food products, soft drinks, cigarettes, that kind of thing. We are not proposing and none of our clients’ operations have a liquor license. There are no gas stations at that intersection. Someone had commented that there are others in the area, but there aren’t any that are very close by. If you go south on Newburgh Road, its close to a mile to the nearest gas station. Its on the map, as you can see, its .8 miles going south on Newburgh. There is a Mobile station as Ms. Toy pointed out, down the street, but this is not an intersection that is overwhelmed with gas stations, there is no other station at that intersection. While there is certainly an intent in the automotive industry to move towards electric, there are millions and millions, hundreds of millions of vehicles on the road that use internal combustion, that does require gas. As we’ve looked around, I think we’ve found that gas prices are somewhat higher in Livonia than they are in other cities that have more gas stations. We think that competition is a good thing. At the Planning Commission, my client was surprised by the number of people that showed up and spoke against the project, but if you look at what was said at the Planning Commission and what will likely be said today, most of the comments weren’t directed so much at whether this would be a gas station or not, but rather it would be an active commercial operation. It was a busy Family Video store there, but the Family Video business has gone out of business due to technology changes and to the pandemic. Right now, we have a building that is 16,000 square feet that’s almost entirely vacant. The only proposal that’s before you today is for the gas station and convenience store. Its not a referendum on what would be the best use for this property, does the property use proposed comply with the ordinance. As we have given you the appeal letter, we believe it does. It’s a good use of the property. An empty building is 6 a concern, should be a concern with the City and I’m sure it is to all of you Councilmembers. If somebody wants to come in and make a substantial investment in the city of Livonia, to do a project like this, is $500-600,000 investment, at least. Turning what is now a vacant building into a beautiful building and increasing the tax base of the city. The storage tank, the gas tank that would be brought in would be brand new, state of the art, and some of the concerns that existed at gas stations in the past are not as valid now due to changes in technology and heavier regulations for underground storage tanks by the State. I have included in the packet, a couple of before and after photographs of other locations that our client has in Saginaw. You can see the differences, taking either a store that was closed or run down and turning it into something very nice, very fresh, up to date. That’s what we’re proposing to do here. In terms of the specific site plan, Mr. Taormina mentioned a number of parking spots, that’s something that can be addressed in the site plan approval. We’re not to that stage yet. The question is simply whether this body will grant, overrule, the Planning Commission and grant permission for this use of the property. We would be happy to answer any questions that the Council may have. I can either answer them or direct one of the other individuals with me to answer. Bahr: Mr. Donovic had his hand up first, then I’ll go to Ms. Toy, then Ms. White. Donovic: Thank you, Mr. Vice President. First, thanks to all the residents that had reached out to me via email via all sorts of different platforms, so thank you, I appreciate your input. I do listen and likewise, thanks to the petitioner, thank you to Council for being here tonight and wanting to come to the community, regardless of where people lie on certain issues, I do appreciate the emphasis on our community. Just trying to take an old building and do something with it, so I do thank everyone involved. I do have a few questions, does your client currently own the building or is this still under contract contingent upon this? Demerest: It is still owned by Mr. Yuhasz’s company. Donovic: So you are the current owner, the client’s the current owner of the building, which was a Family Video. Demerest: The Family Video still owns the building, assuming we get approval, we’ll move forward with this project. Donovic: The reason I’m asking the question is, if this would not get passed, what would happen to the building? I don’t know if there were already some other plans, I’m not sure. Yuhasz: Jason Yuhasz, 500 Snapdragon Lane, Dewitt. Yes, we own the building, we own and operate Family Video, we own every Family Video building across the country. Right now, they are all vacant, the video business did not survive Corona. Someone mentioned a little bit ago, with the market in mind, with the intention of vacating, so without Mr. Alhadiss opening his business in there, it 7 will be vacant. We have no other tenants, there are no other intended use for it. It would be a vacant building at that point. Donovic: Thank you. For your client, you had already talked about what the hours would be at this location, I know that’s a big contention. Demerest: I can answer that. 5am to 11pm. I would also point out that in your packet, we got petitions from a number of neighboring property owners, including the Yacht Club that you mentioned. There are nine of them in the packet, as well as a number of residential neighbors who are also in support of the project. One of the things they pointed out, was that a gas station use was compatible with the neighborhood and that they were very concerned about an empty building. I think that, as opposed to weighing gas station versus ideal use, what we’re really looking at today is a gas station versus vacant building without any idea as to how long it would remain vacant, and I think that’s troublesome. Donovic: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Bahr: I just have to point out that the previous answer from Family Video saying the video business didn’t survive COVID, I thought, man, they sure did survive a lot though. Actually, the fact that the video business lasted that long, you ran a good business as long as you did. Councilwoman Toy. Toy: Thank you so much. Take me back a little bit. You’re blaming your vacancy on COVID, yet the videos were challenged, I think before COVID, if I’m not mistaken. Furthermore, with that, perhaps being said, being true our untrue, what intent have you done to try and sell this building or did you all of a sudden have someone come in and say I want to put a gas station here and I want to sell stuff out of here as it relates to different products. Were they the first people to approach you? There’s vacant buildings all over, our city and other cities, so it’s not promising that we have vacant buildings, but with Amazon and other kinds of venues of things, we’ve got a new normal here. We that own brick and mortar, do have some problems. We have to readjust how we do business and what is going on as far as business. So therefore, I was wondering, as you stated, we have this gas station, and they’re coming and we’re trying to fit this in, is there anything else? How long have we had the building up for sale or lease or whatever you’re doing with it? I don’t hear the history of it. Yuhasz: Yep, sure. So, the video business was doing just fine until, if you want to get the history of the video business, I guess, the video business was doing just fine, because we own the real estate and we owned and operate the video store. So, we controlled everything from the ground up. Then our business model, I don’t know how in depth you want me to go on this, we were renting new releases for one day at a time, Blockbuster rented them for five days at a time. Movies come out on Tuesday, we rented them five times by the time Blockbuster turned it once. So, Family Video was extremely profitable since 1978. We were around before any other video store and were around long 8 after any other video store. When the Corona shut down happened, when the Governor shut down, all the Governor’s shut down everything, anybody that wasn’t a physical media user, DVD or games, those people were forced to stay home and get their entertainment content through streaming services. Once we reopened last June, we gave it six months try, but those people had already switched over to the streaming service. That literally killed it, that and then the studios stopped making any movies. There have not been any movies, the greatest movie last year was Wonder Woman, that’s a pretty low bar. So, nobody rented any movies, not from any Family Video store. With regards to leasing the business, yes, I literally go out, that’s my job now, I oversee all of the properties. Every Family Video building in Michigan, northern Indiana, northern Ohio, so I have 145 buildings that I oversee, and I go out and pound the pavement, looking for tags. We have a call center that does, we’ve got information up, I meet with the Chamber of Commerce’s, various places, looking for new tenants. We’re very actively, aggressively leasing the buildings. We’re signing 4-10 leases a week in the Family Buildings. In the cities where certain places make it and there are places set to open, I will say that, we use tags. We had Doordash signed up to take the full 7,000 square foot building here, and actually a number of buildings, I signed a deal for 40 buildings for this, they backed out in all of Michigan, for Doordash to take our full 7,000 square foot building, including this one right here in Livonia. All of the other business people who I generally do a lot of business with, we don’t necessarily have to go through this process, when it’s straight retail to retail, we have a lot of Dollar General buildings. They got over 160 Family Videos, where, if we can’t put something else in it, we’ll just put a Dollar General in it and everybody loves a Dollar General. That’s generally the way it goes when cities don’t allow something new or something different to come in. So, we’re leasing a lot, Mr. Alhadiss is not the first person that we’ve had for this, but he’s the one by far that has put the most into it. The other companies for various reasons have backed out. Toy: So, what would you do if we deny this? Yuhasz: It will be maintained at a low level, minimum maintenance to keep it. You know, we’ll mow it every two weeks, we’ll run one plow through it through the wintertime, in case someone wants to come and look at it, but it’s going to be pretty minimally maintained until we have another tenant. Toy: Ok, and you’ll keep advertising, obviously? Yuhasz: We’re still Family Video, we’re still family owned and operated, they’re not selling of their 800 buildings. Toy: Who owns Biggby? Yuhasz: A local tenant. Toy: So, you own that as well? 9 Yuhasz: They’re our tenant and they’re moving month to month as we speak. Toy: Ok, I appreciate that. Sir, on this, to the attorney. Thank you for the packet, by the way, but I just don’t see the heaviness of residents in the packet as far as petitions go. I’ve been on this Council for a long time, off and on, and some of them don’t even have addresses on these various residents as you presented them. I think I have six of them, so, I’m not sure it gives it the gusto that I think could be overly convincing. The businesses, no offense, are very credible in those areas and I get it, but I am having an awful problem putting in a gas station and the nuisance it will bring. The traffic it will bring. I patronize that area down there, believe it or not, to get my hair cut at a place just beyond there. It’s crowded in that area right there, it’s very confusing at times, it gets backed up. I don’t know if it’s the light, as far as the timing, sir, or what, but I’m very reluctant to this. I’m going to offer a denying resolution at this point. Others may have other ones, sir, but I really think this needs to be rethought, thank you. Bahr: First Councilwoman White, then I saw Jim. Demerest: May I respond to Ms. Toy? Bahr: Sure. Demerest: There is difficulty these days, going out and getting petitions, with people’s concerns about COVID, people knocking on their doors, so I think that’s reflected. Also, I think it’s easier for someone who opposes something to sign it, someone who is a resident who may be in support. Between the time that the Planning Commission denied it and tonight, we’re sitting down to talk to a number of neighbors a number of residents, we’ve tried. COVID is a significant factor in the number of signatures. The concerns about traffic, is the same for other types of uses that might go in there too, if there was another retail use. For example, our client could put a convenience store in there without any permission beyond the zoning, right? That could have just as much traffic as the gas station. I think the focus needs to be in, is there something different with a gas station versus some sort of retail operation where people are going to turn off Ann Arbor Road or they’re going to turn off Newburgh and go into there, just like they did when Family Video was renting movies every single night. I think that the traffic exists, if there’s any retail, these people are going to stop there. Toy: There are other gas stations in the area as well. Demerest: There are other gas stations in the city, certainly, there’s one a little bit further down Ann Arbor Road, not on Newburgh, you would have to go further. Toy: Thank you. Bahr: Councilwoman White is next. 10 White: This question is to the petitioner, I want to make it clear that the sale of the building here is contingent upon the rezoning, correct? Demerest: It is a lease of a portion of the building, contingent on, it’s not rezoning, it’s contingent on the special use. Again, our client is prepared to invest at least $500-600,000 in this, probably more. Then, based on his other projects, is the $500-600,000 was the minimum. It is contingent on this Council’s approval. White: I just wanted to clarify that if we don’t grant waiver use approval, this person could just walk away? Demerest: Correct. White: Somebody pointed out, in terms of the packet that you presented. Sorry to point it out that the number of petitions signed by residents, there aren’t a lot. I get what you are saying about the COVID concerns, people don’t answer their doors these days when some random person comes knocking. I understand that, we’re all politicians, we know what it’s like when we are knocking on doors, there are more people that don’t answer their doors then do. I noticed in these eight petitions that I counted there’s one that doesn’t have an address, so that should have been corrected before you submitted it to us. At any rate, and also, the pictures you provided of other gas stations and the before and after pictures. First of all, these before pictures are not comparable at all to this site. This site may eventually not look so great, but these pictures are very rundown properties. Our Inspection department is pretty vigilant to the point that if you do make payments on a minimum level to the extent that there aren’t any violations, our Inspection department will stay on top of that. I don’t think these are very comparable, but I do want to ask you, the after pictures, the buildings that are associated with these lots, is the vision what this Quik Stop would look similar? I realize this is retrofitting and fixing the building, but is this going to look anything similar to these? Demerest: I think it’s a nicer, larger, existing building. We worked with what we have, so those existing stations were smaller and somewhat antiquated. Here, we have a lot more space to work with, so I think it would look nicer. We could address that. What we were trying to illustrate there, was the substantial upgrade to the property. Here we have a building that’s Mr. Yuhasz’s company, that’s kept in good condition, but there will certainly be upgrades to the building as part of this project if its approved. White: These gas stations that you provided pictures of, none of them have five pumps, right, these are smaller? I didn’t see five pumps unless it’s not the whole… Demerest: Yes, that’s it, they are smaller lots so there’s not as much room. Five pumps doesn’t take that much more room if you have, for example, two pumps in one line, it doesn’t take that much more room. Again, the purpose of the photographs was not to say it would look exactly like that, but to show the quality of the work and I think that is shown there. 11 White: Ok, it’s been pointed out already by some of the other Councilmembers that this is awfully close to Newburgh Lake. I don’t like the fact that it’s so close to Newburgh Lake for this type of operation. We don’t have any lack of gas stations in this area and to be honest with you, we talked about a Dollar General, that would be a lot less objectionable that a gas station is at this site. I have a hard time, I will have a hard time approving it at this site. I just don’t think it’s a good location for this proposal at this time. Bahr: Thank you Councilwoman White. Just so my colleagues know where I’m at, I’m trying to keep track here. We’re going to Jim next, then Brandon, then Rob. Jolly: First, to Mr. Taormina. Are there a lot of situations in Livonia for gas station in a lease? My understanding is that we typically have gas stations that are owned and operated by the same person. Are you aware of something similar? As part of the comments here, to be quite honest with you, that scares me even more. You’re going to be leasing part of the building for a gas station? Once that investment goes in the ground, it’s always going to be a gas station. Right? That is even more troublesome to me because there is no incentive to the person who owns the property to upkeep the gas station. Listen, I like everything you’ve said and you’re coming from a well-established business that had a great run. I just don’t like this set up and the more that we understand what the proposed set up is, I like it even less. Listen, if there is anything we can do to get a quality business, not that this isn’t a quality business, but something that would be acceptable to the community, something that would add additional value to the community, please bring that before us. Bahr: Mr. McCullough? Yuhasz: Just to speak to that. We’ve got some other ones we’re working through. For Family Videos, it’s specifically in the lease. He vacates for any reason whatsoever, his lease is terminated, or he defaults his lease, he’s fully responsible to remove every trade item that he put in there. That’s in our lease, he’s gotta pull the tanks out. It’s not locked in, it’s not locked in as a gas station. Jolly: My problem with that is that businesses go bankrupt all the time, then the landlord, the owner of the property is left with that situation. Thank you, I appreciate your time. Bahr: Mr. McCullough? McCullough: Thank you Mr. Chair. I hate to keep beating about this packet even more, but I was Googling some address, obviously the businesses are within a mile. You have some petitioners that were all either sandwiched within old neighborhoods or were one to three miles, some even five miles away from this site. I did not see one that was in the surrounding area. Like I said, not to beat down a dead horse, but the main issue that I do have is, if I look at the Planning denials, if you look at number 4 and number 7, the operation of gas service station on this site will have a negative impact on the neighboring 12 properties. The petitioner has not demonstrated that the operation of gasoline service station would be compatible with the harmony with the surrounding uses in the area. We’ve received a lot of feedback from residents that are people that live surrounding this. I do appreciate the development, we hate these vacant areas as much everybody else in the city, but it’s also trying to find the right property and the right development that goes in the area. I tell you what, if I lived next door, I’d be in the audience here and I’d have probably the same comments that they’re about to come up and say. Again, I appreciate everything that you are saying with this development, but I just don’t think the gas station is the right choice. Thank you. Bahr: Mr. Donovic? Donovic: Thanks, Mr. Vice President. Looking at this packet of what your petitioner has done at other gas stations, I wish he’d come to some of the gas stations that we have in our community that have run down and re do them. It looks like you do good work at your locations. There are some beautiful gas stations in our city and there are ones that are just horrible. I really wish you would come to some of those locations and fix those up. I just have a difficult envisioning this particular site as a gas station. As a kid, I used to go to this Family Video all the time, I probably still owe $85 actually, for late fees. I mean, I went here for years as a kid and envisioning this site as a gas station, especially with the elevation of this property being so high. I know you talked about adding a canopy in the air, it’s just really hard for me to get there. I don’t want to be a nay-sayer at all, like I said, I made it clear that I think the petitioner is great working on gas stations, it’s just that I have a really difficult time envisioning this place as a gas station. I don’t know if this could be the best long-term use of this property. I don’t want to see another Dollar Tree, I can tell you that. You just slap a yellow sign in front of that green building, and I’ve seen multiple of those locations. I am at the same time, fearful of what is going to happen at this location. Now I am encouraged by just the fact that we have representation from the owner saying we are actively trying to find tenants for this property, so I’m happy about that. I just have a difficult time seeing this as a gas station. Demerest: If any of you visited this site before tonight’s meeting, you would have seen For Lease signs on the building. The only active tenant discussions right now are with Quik Stop. Again, if it gets approved, if Council does not reverse the Planning Commission, we don’t know how long the building is going to be vacant. Bahr: Thank you. If anyone from the audience would like to speak to this, please approach the podium. We ask that you state your name and address for the record. I do also want to take this opportunity to thank you all for emails and letters that you sent. I think it’s pretty clear, I can say for myself that I read each one of them, I think it’s pretty clear from the comments tonight that Council has read them as well. I think we are familiar with what you are going to say, but this is your opportunity to say it. 13 Smith: Thank you Council. I’m Steve Smith, I live at 9814 Horton. I think I was on your map there, my property abuts this property. The backyard is right up against this property, so I think a lot of the comments that you’ve had are a lot of the same concerns that I have. One of the main concerns that I have would be with the lighting. You’ve got that canopy up there, those pumps have to be very well lit, and my back yard is right against this property. I like to sit on my deck in a summer evening and it’s real likely that the light from that would be shining right into my back yard, so I’m opposed to having a gas station here. Again, for a lot of the same reasons that you’ve mentioned, it is kind of a busy area. It’s kind of a confusing area, if you see Horton there, Horton is kind of a cut through street. We get vehicles coming out of the Yacht Club, cutting through our street. It’s right where Ann Arbor Road and Newburgh and Ann Arbor Trail come together, so it is a little bit confusing. I think that if you have the traffic from the gas station, the convenience would be to shoot down Horton through that quiet neighborhood. The Yacht Club is right there, as you mentioned earlier, it is kind of a wild place sometimes, but that is a quiet neighborhood right there, right across the street. People are here from that neighborhood, and I wouldn’t want to see, with a gas station there, there is a lot of traffic in and out of a gas station. We have plenty of gas stations in that area, there’s multiple gas stations right nearby, we don’t need another one right there. I appreciate the need to find a tenant, I don’t like to see that building sitting empty either, I think I’d like to see some vital companies come in there. I can appreciate the owner wanting to have that revenue from renters. I think Livonia attracts a wide variety of diverse buildings, diverse businesses, and we’re better off waiting for something more suitable to come along. I agree with Planning, which is denial, I think they got it right. This is pretty much a no brainer, you’ll likely hear from the neighbors that live in that area that they don’t want to see a gas station there, so thank you. Bahr: If you wish to speak, it would be great if you could come down and line up, it would help me see how many we’re looking at. Holgate: Hi Council, my name is Rachael Holgate and I’m at 9804 Horton. I was also at the Planning meeting and there were some things that were mentioned that just weren’t true in the, I don’t know what it’s called, the rebuttal packet. There are just some things that weren’t true. There were definitely more than a few people that oppose this at the Planning meeting. In addition, there were people that just couldn’t be at the meeting. We have people that have health issues right now, we have people that just had a baby, we have other people that have children that we have spoken to that are neighbors that do not support this. I can think of at least four other families in our community that do not support this at all. That’s why I was quite surprised when he mentioned the number of petitioners he had that were neighbors, because I’m thinking, I know all of the thoughts of every single neighbor and none of them support it. I did just a quick poll today on Facebook during work and I had there’s only thirteen people on our neighborhood group, I had not a single person that were either indifferent or that supported this in any way. Every single response, I had nine people out of the thirteen in our group, every single person was against this. Also, I really do sympathize… 14 Bahr: Ma’am, you need to direct comments up through here. Holdgate: Oh ok. So, I do sympathize with the owner. At no point, did we mention that we want that building vacant. We do not want that building vacant, we just feel like we should have the right business go in there. The building itself, the business closed during COVID and it took awhile before the sign went up, but it was for lease. So, I don’t think there’s been ample time to find the right business to fit that location. The other thing is, gas stations, you mentioned this over and over, there’s a saturation. They are downplaying the amount of gas stations there. Every single corner doesn’t need a gas station. Also, he mentioned competition. There’s a thing that’s healthy competition. So, healthy competition is where you have the right amount of businesses, there is supply and demand. When you have too many, somebody is going to go out and then you have an empty business. Traffic: there are some good points made and Ms. Toy, you did make a note that the traffic at that corner does seem to be pretty heavy. I’d like to make mention one thing that wasn’t mentioned. Having Hines Drive there and then also they’ve done improvements and they put in a parking lot for the bike trail, so now that’s more known. We have more people going there. We have a lot of exercisers. People walking, we have bikers, just on our way here, my husband and I waiting in the left turn lane, there were six bikers crossing that corner, so you have a lot of people crossing there, that may not be on a different intersection for busy roads. Pollution: these are some of my worries, the contaminants. I know they say there are things that are going to mediate this or what not. Like it’s been mentioned, once it’s a gas station, it’s always going to be a gas station. Anything with the contingency with taking these things out, what risk now, putting these things in there and having these things removed, that have had fuel and what not on there. Odor? I’m very sensitive to odor. Light; because this is already a high elevation, putting in a canopy with lights on top of that. I just, it’s just not something I’m going to like. Noise: we do have a very busy bar there. I just think having the bar there and there isn’t a lot of opportunity for other business. We have the whole Hines Drive area, we have the biking trails now. This business, the bar and the yarn shop, there’s not a lot of opportunity for other businesses. One thing that actually, our neighbors reminded us of, because we forgotten. I’m a big gardener and we actually have a well in our yard. Our home was built in 1922 and we have a well that we have been trying to get working again because I’m just a massive gardener, I can’t even describe it. We own 9804 as well as 9805 and my garden goes from the midpoint of 9804 to the midpoint of 9805. We want to use that well water to water. I believe in organic vegetables just because my son had cancer and things. My last point is just the future. I really hope that your decision, the impact of your decision and how it would come forth in the future. Whatever goes in there if it’s a gas station will most likely stay that way or have some impact to being removed. I don’t think its appealing to have so many gas stations in Livonia. We have an older demographic and having younger families moving in, they aren’t going to want to move into an area that’s just all gas stations, I wouldn’t. I’m a middle-aged broad. Also, this whole meeting made me think more too, technology. I’m sorry, videos were on their way out before the pandemic, we all know it. I mean, I don’t mean to hurt any feelings, but streaming was already a thing that 15 was coming in. My husband actually works for Ford Motor Company, and I can tell you just from his meetings, because we both work at home now, electric cars are coming. That was a very good point. Electric cars are coming, so gas engines are going to be moving on out. I don’t know how long it’s going to take, but that’s definitely a valid point. Thank you so much for listening to me. Bahr: Councilwoman White? White: Mrs. Holgate, I just want to tell you, your letter, your email that was sent to Council was one of the best letters I’ve ever seen opposing a land use proposal. In fact, it was so good, I printed it out, I underlined a lot of things that I agreed with. It was very well written, and I do believe you and probably the other residents who have taken the position that, no, we don’t like a vacant storefront, that’s not what our aim is here, I do believe you, that you would like to see some prosperous business here, just not a gas station. That’s pretty much, speaking as one Councilmember and I think the rest of the Council shares my views, is that we don’t like vacant store fronts either, but that doesn’t mean that the first proposal that comes along we’ll say ok to. In a sense, I think the pandemic, you mentioned the word patience in your letter, to be patient and I think there is merit to that. With the pandemic, there are businesses that are pivoting, there are new types of businesses coming in. It’s kind of amazing to see what the business community can do when changing habits of potential people in the area. I do think if we’re patient, something will come along that will be a better use here than a gas station. Holgate: Thank you, I appreciate those words. We do have a heart and we do sympathize to the owner. Bahr: Ma’am, if you are going to speak, could you go to the podium if you’re going to speak? Holgate: Oh, sorry. This is my second meeting. Bahr: Quickly please because we have a lot of people that want to talk. Holgate: I’ve pretty much said my place, thank you. Bahr: We’ll make sure we get to anybody that wants to speak. I do want to point out though, that we have a denying resolution on the table, we’ve heard from every Councilperson up here and I think you can observe what the opinions are up here, so just keep that in mind. We’ll listen to anyone who wants to speak, just keep that in mind as you are sharing your thoughts. Thanks. I just like to say that we want a business in the building, we just don’t want a gas station. I’d like to go into a little bit more about Newburgh Lake and hardly anything has said about the tanks that have to go in. I think that was purposely. I found out about tanks and gas stations in the last month, I found out more than I ever wanted to know. Tanks that have to go underground are 10,000- gallon tanks are the smallest, 20,000 gallon tanks are usually what is used for 16 a gas station with five pumps. There has to be at least two for the different grades of gasoline. That means a great deal of the parking lot has to be torn up. My main concern is Newburgh Lake. Newburgh Lake at one point, probably about thirty years ago was so polluted that they had to drain it and dredge out the bottom. All of the fish and other water life had to be disposed of very carefully because of the pollution. One person actually died in this process, one of the workers. The lake has now come back. It has taken 25 years and finally the fish is all right to eat out of the lake and the wildlife is coming back. I talked to a person from EAGLE. EAGLE is the government agency which cleans up gasoline spills. On the paper you received, one is the water shed that happens from Newburgh Lake and how it flows through different communities and everything. I was told by EAGLE that the location of these tanks is not only very close to the lake, within 100-200 feet of the lake and also the elevation of the property causes a problem. Even though these tanks are underground they are still going to be higher than the lake is. Any kind of spill from those tanks or on the ground for that matter, will flow directly into Newburgh Lake and be carried through all of its tributaries. The threat is imminent. I was told by both Sarah, the one that issues the license for the tanks that they can’t do anything to stop it except if someone has a well. Now this tells you that gasoline tanks leak all the time. Yes, they’ve been improved a great deal from years gone by, but gasoline tanks are left in the ground too. If you look on the map, one of the closest leaks to us is 711 on the other corner. When I was told that, I said that 711 isn’t a gas station, but it was at one point. Now, because 711 isn’t responsible for it, someone else is, who they can’t find, 711 gasoline tanks underground have been leaking since September of 2000. There are, right now, in the greater metro area, currently more than 15,000 leaking tanks that can’t be stopped. This is a horrible danger to Newburgh Lake. It’s something they told me at EAGLE, it’s not a matter of if it will happen, it’s a matter of when. Oh, I’m Kim Peterson, 9817 Newburgh, so I’m directly next door, but I’m not the only one that is going to be directly affected by this. We want something in there, but we do not need or want a gas station or a convenience store. Thank you. Grantham: Good evening, my name is Maria Grantham, 9805 Horton. I live down the street from the proposed gas station. I sent an email to each of you, which I believe each of you read and I pointed out that with the new Vision 21 that the names section talks about, and I’m not going to read the whole thing. The comprehensive plan of the ordinance is for the purpose of promoting public health, safety, morals, convenience, comfort, amenities, prosperity, and general welfare of the community and of a wholesome, serviceable and attractive municipality. It goes on to talk about how Livonians, kind of appears to me, it’s for the people. The lawyer stated that, the people, I mean this was brought up, that we don’t want anything there. No, we have no opposition to anything there, nobody picketed out there, when Family Video was there and seeing it closed up, we want new business. We support that. Mr. Beneshot is not a licensed engineer. He is speaking for the petitioner about what the hours will be. He has no control of that once this is done, the petitioner can say hey I’m going to be open all night and whatever. The petitioner does have two gas stations, which I’m not sure if those were the pictures that you see, that are 17 unkempt. Two Sunoco gas stations one on Flushing Road, the other one in Bay City. The one in Bay City is open 24 hours, so I’m not sure what he’s to say here that the gas station won’t be open late. Mr. Yuhasz mentioned that he had all those vacant video stores. If you look him up, Mr. Yuhasz has been praised for all of the things that he’s done with these Family Video sites. He’s had Marco Pizza put in, he’s had Dogtopia, he’s had physical therapy places, he’s had many other uses for these Family Video stores and this gas station just does not fit a need for us. It takes less than two minutes to get to two gas stations, which are at Plymouth and Levan. Less than a minute to get to the one on Ann Arbor Trail, so we do have lots of gas stations. There isn’t any of us that are begging for a ride, saying hey I’m empty, can you follow me? Nobody, because we will get to a gas station. There are so many things that they brought up that are contradictory to everything. Mr. Yuhasz pointed out that if the property stays vacant that he can maintain it at a minimum. Mr. Yuhasz has an obligation to the city of Livonia, regardless of whether the business is open or closed. The city of Livonia has the right to ticket him if he does not maintain the property in the manner that falls under ordinances. So, is that a threat that he’s going to do a minimum to it? I don’t know. All I do ask is that, if this is all for money, there are better uses for this property. There are better options for the neighbors. The thing about it is too, Kim mentioned that these spills, Kim Peterson mentioned about these spills and stuff, I don’t know if anybody is aware of it, if these spills do occur next to a residential property, those residential properties become, the information has to go on the deeds so the value of those homes will decrease once that is put on the deed that there is contamination in the ground. That’s all I have to say, a lot of is just, is it for the money? It’s for the buy in or acclamations for the company you work for. Bahr: Ma’am, you need to wrap this up, here, I want to remind, just so everybody knows, I know you are not often at Council meetings and I want people to have a chance to speak, but when the petitioners are here and there is an approving resolution on the table, we often advise them, that at that point, their best bet is not to say anything else because they got what they want. I’m just going to remind you again, I think you’ve seen up here, I don’t think, frankly, the communication that has come here before has all been read, we hear what you are saying and if you have something to say that hasn’t been expressed yet, please do, we’ll give you an opportunity. I just want to remind all of you for everybody’s sake, for everybody’s time, I think its pretty clear that’s where we are. Grantham: I did express some points that were not brought up before about the property and other things, so thank you. Bahr: Thank you, Ms. Grantham. Councilman Jolly. Jolly: I’ll just reinforce what the Chair has said. We heard you loud and clear. We are in agreement, we want to hear if you have novel points, if you have something new as Mr. Bahr said. We have heard, I think we are pretty clear with our place in this as well. 18 Bahr: Thank you Councilman Jolly, Councilwoman Toy. Toy: Mr. Chair, just to remind or share with them the process. People do have a right to petition the city. You, as landowners, as residents have a right to petition, so these gentleman are expressing their right and I appreciate that. I know all of you do, but there is a process to this, Mr. Chair, do you want to explain what happens next? Bahr: Sure, I can do that. I’ll just tack one thing on there too, I do want to acknowledge the work that the petitioner went to, putting this together. This is a nice packet. You’ve done a good job making your case and I just want to acknowledge that, but as far as the process goes, what we have offered on the table is a denying resolution. That’s not to say that at the next meeting that someone couldn’t offer an approving, but I think it’s pretty clear and you guys could ascertain from what you’ve heard up here tonight most likely, that th denying resolution would be considered at the October 18 meeting and that’s the point in which we would take a vote on that item. So that’s what the process is from here on out. Does that cover what you were hoping to cover? Toy: Yes, thank you very much. Bahr: Councilman Donovic? Donovic: Just for voluntary purposes, is there a normal course of action to make sure everyone gets the appropriate amount of time to speak. Is there a time constraint? Bahr: We don’t typically in public hearings. Sir? Hogan: Dave Hogan, 9804 Horton Street. Just around the corner from the property. This kind of just shows, let me use your easel here real quick, how many actual gas stations we have. I’m not going to take a lot of time because we’ve gone over it, but I was surprised today when I looked this up on Google at lunchtime. There is actually 14 gas stations within about a 3 ½ mile radius of this, so when they said there’s not really a gas station in the area, I guess, unless you are running on empty, there wouldn’t really be an issue. You’ve got plenty of gas stations. Like I said, 14 within 3 ½ miles. I’d be curious, I know probably the way this works is that I don’t address the actual petitioners, but with the six people they said, the businesses that they actually said that were in agreement with this, I’m just curious if any of those were in attendance here, because I kind of had my doubts with that. There might be businesses in the area, but with the actual people, and we’ve talked to pretty much a lot of people in this neighborhood and we haven’t really seen anybody that has approved of this. Newburgh Lake being cleaner, concerned about that too. I remember back when I was a kid, you couldn’t go swimming in there or anything, I see people fishing, kayaking on weekends, I worry about that if the gas station went in if that’s a concern or not. The last thing I want to talk about, I’m concerned with, is if there is a leak down the road and Mr. Jolly had a good point too, that a lot 19 of times these places go bankrupt, and the tank is still there and it still leaks because the State doesn’t have money to clean up all these site like that. With the gas tanks being so close to Newburgh Lake, that’s my main concern with that too, as far as that goes. Bahr: Thank you and my goodness, with the effort that went into drawing that, I’m glad you got the opportunity to display it. Google maps in front of me, the original map and that map, we are well educated on where the gas stations are. Just for the record, I’m not making fun of you, I’m impressed. Is there anyone else? You want to speak, Mr. Jolly? Jolly: I’m all set. Bahr: I do want to thank all the residents for coming out and for your communication and really respectful and well thought out communication. I want to thank the petitioner for being willing to invest in our community and for taking the time that you put into this. We do have a denying resolution on the table that will be th considered at the October 18 meeting. With that, just in time. Alhadiss: I just want to say something real quick here. This is what I do for a living. Bahr: Your name and address please. Alhadiss: My name is Jameel Alhadiss and this is what I do for a living so of course, from what I heard, anything is acceptable accept a gas station and that makes me feel like I’ve done something wrong. Why wasn’t it a concern for the guy down the road? The Mobile gas station or the other gas stations? Anything acceptable but a gas station. For the regulations of the tanks, spills, all that, it’s not an issue because I can just install a tank and operate the gas station for a year, two, five and pull the tank without any problems environmentally. Is that something I’m doing wrong, should I stop other cities, Livonia, anything? Gas stations? I’m being denied here because I’m a gas station guy? Toy: Sir, the reason I offered a denying is that I truly don’t believe a gas station belongs here, ok? I think you’ve got five pumps, I think the traffic flow, a lot of what we all said to you were that is not the right location. Alhadiss: It’s huge parking lot compared to other gas stations. Toy: Parking is one thing, but in and out, gas stations, that kind of thing, getting gas is a lot different than walking into a party store, just a whole lot of reasons, Sir. So, that’s why Planning denied you. Look at their notes, look at our notes. Alhadiss: So, if could go in an open a convenience store without being here, is that going to change anything? Toy: Well, it won’t have gas pumps, right? Alhadiss: Yeah, so what’s the gas pumps going to change anything? 20 Bahr: We appreciate your comments but at the risk of rehashing the last hour, it’s nothing against you personally, it’s not that Livonia doesn’t want gas stations, we have plenty of gas stations, we’ve had, over the course of the last hour, there has been a number of factors relative to this property that are concerning and when it comes to gas stations there are some unique things about this property. I’m not going to rehash the last hour, I understand where you are coming from but… Benoshot: Can I address some of the Council? Bahr: Sure. Is there anybody else that had something to say. If you have something to say that’s not been said, that’s fine, let’s finish with this and then we’re going to wrap this up. th Benoshot: Dennis Benoshot, 617 14 Street Bay City, Michigan. Some of the points mentioned were lighting. Lighting is shielded in every development we do. We make sure there isn’t light escaping from our sites. No matter if it’s a gas station or a beauty parlor. That’s required. We understand that. The other thing that has to do with that are these residential properties to the south are going to be screen from the canopy by the building itself. The lights wouldn’t be all the way over to their property. The people across Newburgh, obviously, are going to be exposed to some of the light, but I think talking about Newburgh Road as a residential road is a bit of a stretch. It’s four lanes. If it were a two- lane road, I could buy residential, but it doesn’t apply to residential as I understand. The intersection is signalized, so any kind of pedestrian movements or bicycle movements, they’re going to be protected. I wanted to ask Mr. Yuhasz, how much of the rest of that building has ever been leased out. So, the majority of that building has sat vacant since 1973. Almost 50 years. What I’m trying to point out is, it’s not like people are beating down that door to get in that building. Electric cars are coming, there’s no doubt about it, but I’ve heard that over and over and over since I was in high school. Gasoline powered vehicles are going to be out there for another 30-40 years, we’re going to still need gasoline. USTs, underground storage tanks, the tanks that are going in today are dual-walled fiberglass tanks that have a 50-year lifespan. It’s already been mentioned and is part of the lease, the use changes, the gas tank has to come out. The other issue was spills on the site. The site will be graded to obtain all the water that strikes it, as required by the ordinance and that water will go through at storm receptor system that would be able to store anywhere from 150 to 1000 gallons of chemicals, gasoline, if there should be a spill on the site. It would be cleaned out on a regular basis as would the brick chamber that goes with it. Do you own another store in Bay City? I didn’t think so. He’s putting in another store in Bay City at the moment, but he doesn’t own another store there. As far as not being a professional engineer? The young lady that spoke previously was correct. I am not a professional engineer; I’ve been in civil engineering for 32 years. Six years ago, I went back to college and got my degree. I can’t take the PE exam for another year yet, but I will, and I will pass it. That’s all I have thank you. 21 Bahr: Ok with that, we’re going to close the public hearing. Thanks everyone for coming tonight. As there were no further questions or comments, the Public Hearing was declared closed at 8:34 p.m.