HomeMy WebLinkAbout1,163 -December 15, 2020MINUTES OF THE 1,163'd PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020, the City Planning Commission of the City of
Livonia held its 1,1631d Public Hearings and Regular Meeting via Zoom Meeting
Software.
Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:02 p.m.
Members present: David Bongero Sam Caramagno Glen Long
Betsy McCue Carol Smiley Peter Ventura
Ian Wilshaw
Members absent: None
Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, Scott Miller, Planner IV, Debra Walter,
Clerk -Typist II and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present.
Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City
Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final
determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning
Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or
vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City
Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a
petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the
petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City
Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective
seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the
professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff
has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which
the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the
proceedings tonight.
ITEM #1 PETITION 2020-11-02-10 Shoppes of Livonia
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2020-
11-02-10subrnitted by LS Equity L.L.C. requesting approval of all
plans required by Sections 11.03(n)(3), 18.47 and 18.58 of the
City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance No. 543, as amended, in
connection with a proposal to re -develop the commercial
shopping center (Shoppes of Livonia), including demolishing a
portion of the existing building, constructing a full -service
restaurant with drive-thru facilities (Chick-fil-A), constructing an
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addition and renovating the exterior fagade of the existing
building, and constructing a multi -tenant retail building with drive-
thru facilities, at 29250-29350 Plymouth Road, located on the
north side of Plymouth Road between Haller Avenue and
Middlebelt Road in the Southwest /4 of Section 25.
Mr. Taormina: This is a request to redevelop the commercial site at the northeast
corner of Middlebelt and Plymouth roads. The property in
question totals 7.75 acres with roughly 480 feet of frontage on
Middlebelt Road and 185 of frontage on Plymouth Road. The site
contains a multi -tenant retail building with a gross floor area of
roughly 85,000 square feet. The property is zoned C-2 (General
Business). Located closer to the intersection at Middlebelt and
Plymouth is a vacant commercial building that was constructed in
2003 as a Walgreens Pharmacy. That building is not a part of the
site. Nor is the Firestone Compete Auto Care Center facility
located immediately to the east of this site along Plymouth Road.
Both properties were once a part of a larger single site that
included the subject parcel but were split -off and sold separately.
The subject property would be redeveloped in three phases.
Phase I includes demolishing portions of the existing retail
building and constructing a new Chick-Fil-A restaurant, which
would be adjacent to Middlebelt Road. Phase II, as you can see
on this diagram, involves the redevelopment of the area along
Plymouth Road and the construction of a new multi -tenant retail
building in an area that is currently used for parking. Lastly,
Phase III involves expanding the existing retail building and
undertaking fagade and other parking lot improvements. We will
talk about Phase I first. Demolition on the existing building would
occur first to make room for the Chick-Fil-A restaurant. About
26,000 square feet of the existing 84,000+ square foot building
would be removed. The new free-standing restaurant would be
located between the downsized building and Middlebelt Road in
the northwest corner of the property. The proposed Chick-Fil-A
would have 124 interior seats along with 24 outdoor patio seats,
for a total of 148 customer seats. The building would be one-
story in height and have a gross floor area of 4,995 square feet.
The outdoor seating area would be on the south side facing
Plymouth Road. A major component of this is the drive-thru
facility. There will be two drive-thru lanes that would commence
at the southeast corner of the building and then proceed north
where they would wrap around the back of the building and finish
at the pick-up window on the west side. The menu and ordering
area are shown in the northeast corner just before the turn at the
back of the building. The inside and outside lanes would each
have the capacity for 19 and 21 vehicles, respectively. Both lanes
will be 12 feet in width which complies with the ordinance. The
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adjacent drive aisle would serve as the by-pass route but for the
outside lane only. Note that a drive aisle is immediately adjacent
to this outside drive lane and would be available for circulation. If
any of the cars in the outside lane wanted to prematurely exit the
drive-thru, they would have the opportunity to do so. Overhead
canopies are shown at two locations along the drive thru. One is
at the menu and ordering area and the other one is at the pick-up
window. These photographs provide an example of what the
canopy would look like at the menu and ordering area. These
next photographs indicate what the canopy would look like at the
pick-up window. Striped crosswalks would be provided for safety
and to effectively space the queued vehicles. There are five
existing driveways that provide access to the site and all five
would remain to serve the new development. Three of the
driveways are on Middlebelt Road and two are on Plymouth. Two
of the driveways are on the former Walgreens property: one on
Middlebelt and one on Plymouth. Both provide access to the
subject property via cross access agreements. Looking at the
overall site plan, Middlebelt Road is on the left-hand side and
here are the three existing driveways. The one at the north end is
referred to as the north driveway. There is also a middle driveway
and south driveway, which one of those driveways that is on the
former Walgreens property. The hatched areas show the cross
access that exists between the two properties. On Plymouth
Road, there are two driveways. One is referred to as the east
driveway and the other as the west driveway, also located on the
Walgreens property subject to a cross access agreement. None
of the driveways are signalized. As part of the development, the
two main approaches, the middle driveway on Middlebelt Road
and the east driveway on Plymouth Road, would each be
widened. Looking at the exterior of the Chick-Fil-A restaurant, it
would entirely consist of brick. The canopies are shown here,
above the windows and entrance areas. The height of the
building is about 20 feet, 4-1/2 inches. These are the renderings
showing the north and south elevations of the building. This
would be the side facing Plymouth Road and this one is the back
of the building facing north. Underground detention is part of
Phase I. It includes the construction of the basin that would be
beneath the main parking lot in an area behind the main retail
building. The main retail building is referred to as Retail 2. The
smaller retail building that is proposed adjacent to Plymouth Road
is referred to as Retail 1 and is part of Phase ll. This building is
located at the south end of the parking lot between the Firestone
and the former Walgreens store. This building would be one-
story in height with a gross floor area of roughly 8,900 square
feet. As you can see here, access would be provided via
connections to the shopping center's existing driveways and
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parking aisles. The exterior of this building would contain
different shades of brick. It is a full -brick building. The height
varies from 20 feet to 26 feet. The west end cap is shown as a
restaurant with a drive -up window facility. The site plan shows a
single drive-thru lane along the north and west sides of the
building with the capacity to accommodate roughly nine vehicles.
Phase III involves a 5,378 square foot addition to the northeast
corner of Retail 2, which is the existing building. That addition
would measure 39 '/ feet by 140 feet. With the expansion, Retail
2 would total of 63,434 square feet. The existing building is over
84,000 square feet in size. With the demolition along the west
side of the property and then with the addition, it brings the total
back up to about 63,400 square feet. Besides the expansion, the
entire store front elevation would be renovated. The architecture
and materials are intended to compliment the design of Retail 1.
The exterior finish would contain brick with new parapet wall
sections that would vary in height. As you can see here, they
would project above the existing roofline. The changes to the
other three elevations of the building would consist primarily of
CMU. The top rendering shows the main storefront fagade facing
Plymouth Road. The next rendering is the west side of the
building and includes the same brick finish on roughly half of the
west elevation. The balance would be a decorative CMU. Next is
the rear of the building facing the commercial to the north, and
finally the west side facing the residential area and the Firestone
property, both of which would also be finished with CMU.
Required parking for the new development would be based on
the total amount retail floor space. For a group commercial center
with more than four establishments and where less than 15% of
the gross floor area is devoted to restaurants, the parking is
computed at a ratio of 1 parking space for every 150 square feet
of usable floor area. When we combine the square footage of all
three buildings, the Chick-fil-A, Retail 1 and Retail 2, there is a
total of 77,330 square feet used for determining the parking. This
results in a requirement of 413 parking spaces. The site plan
presented to you this evening shows 397 parking spaces
resulting in a deficiency of 16 spaces, which is roughly 3.8% of
the total number of required spaces. A fully detailed landscape
plan was submitted with the application. This is a blow up of the
area around the Chick-Fil-A restaurant and this is the area around
Retail 1. All existing landscape islands would be replanted. Staff
is recommending that the landscaping along Middlebelt Road
also be replanted. Details are provided on all the trash enclosures
on the site. Regarding site lighting, staff is recommending that all
the poles not exceed a height of 20 feet to be consistent with the
existing parking lot lighting. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read
out the departmental correspondence.
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Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please.
Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated November
17, 2020, which reads as follows: `in accordance with your
request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above
referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed
project at this time. The property is assigned the address range
of #29250 thru #29350 Plymouth Road, with an address of
#29250 Plymouth Road assigned for the overall parcel. The legal
description included on the plans submitted by the ownerappears
to be correct, and should be used to describe the parcel. The
proposed development is currently serviced by public water main
and sanitary sewers. The submitted drawings indicate that new
utility connections will be constructed to service the proposed
building layout, but they do not indicate whether the new utilities
will be private or public. Depending on the ownership of the
proposed utilities, easements may need to be provided. The
drawings do indicate that underground detention for the storm
water is planned, but there are no calculations for the systems at
this time. The proposed construction will be required to meet the
Wayne County Stormwater Ordinance, including detention
requirements. A full review of the proposed development will be
completed when plans are submitted for permitting. It should be
noted that although the City of Livonia will be reviewing the utility
plans for the project, additional permits from Wayne County and
MDOT will be required for work in the Middlebelt Road and
Plymouth Road right-of-way's. "The letter is signed by David W.
Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the
Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 12, 2020, which
reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted
in connection with a request to re -develop the commercial center
(Shoppes of Livonia), including demolishing a portion of the
existing building, the construction of a restaurant with drive-thru
facilities in the vacated space, remodel the existing building's
exterior, construct a building addition to the existing building and
the construction of a stand-alone multi -tenant commercial
building on property located at the above referenced address.
We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by
Greg Thomas, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division
of Police, dated November 11, 2020, which reads as follows: "/
have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. 1 have
the following objections to the proposal. I am concerned with the
driveway just south of Chick-fil-A. I expect there will be a high
traffic volume coming from the business and utilizing that
driveway. There is a great possibility for traffic congestion and
traffic crashes for vehicles attempting to exit and turn left onto
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southbound Middlebelt. My recommendation is to post a Right
Turn Only sign at the exit." The letter is signed by Scott
Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the
Inspection Department, dated December 10, 2020, which reads
as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above referenced
Petition has been reviewed. 1. Signage shall be installed
according to the ordinance. Any excess signage will require a
variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals. 2. Parking spaces
are required to be 10' x 20' and double striped. This Department
has no further objections to this Petition." The letter is signed by
Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the
Finance Department, dated November 12, 2020, which reads as
follows: "I have reviewed the address connected with the above
noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable
(general or water and sewer), I have no objections to the
proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief
Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department,
dated November 12, 2020, which reads as follows: "In
accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has
reviewed the name and addresses connected with the above
noted petition. At this time there are no taxes due, therefore I
have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda
Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: Are there any questions of the Planning Director? I have a quick
question. The only deficiency on this plan is parking, correct?
That is the only reason they would have to go to Zoning Board of
Appeals?
Mr. Taormina: The signage for the Chick-Fil-A is clearly beyond what the
ordinance allows. If you look at these renderings... and we don't
have details on the signs, but in this case, two signs would be
allowed since this would be considered a corner lot. One facing
Middlebelt and the other facing Plymouth Road. The plans show
signs on all four sides of the building, which would require a
variance.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay
Ms. McCue: I apologize. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Wilshaw: Of course, Ms. McCue.
As. McCue: I was just wondering... not a ton of frontage on Plymouth Road,
but will the PRDA be seeing this as well?
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Mr. Taormina: We will bring it to the PRDA the next time the Board meets. This
project does not involve much in the way of streetscape
improvements, since these already exist on the subject property.
Unless the PRDA wanted to see some modifications. We would
intend to submit this to either the full Board or the Executive
Committee sometime in the next month.
Ms. McCue: I agree
there isn't a
whole lot in that
space, but consistency I
guess is
always what
we want to take a
look at.
Mr. Taormina: Thank you.
Ms. McCue: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for our Planning staff? If not, our petitioner
is here in the audience. If you could just use the raise hand button
to indicate who you are. Mr. Jarbou and Mr. McPherson. I think
there are a few representatives on this item. Very good, thank
you. We will start with Mr. Jarbou. Good evening. You can
unmute yourselves.
Frank Jarbou, 4198 Orchard Lake Road, Ste 250, Orchard Lake, MI 48323, I know
that we are in different times now meeting via Zoom. Normally I
like to be in front of the Planning Commission and discuss this
great project that we do have. I just want to introduce everyone
that we have on our team. We have Jenny that is our Project
Manager, Mike McPherson from Atwell Hicks, which is the Site
Engineer, we have Justin from Chick-Fil-A, and we have Michael
from the traffic study that we did on the site. I know that last week
when we went through the study session, we had a lot of
concerns and some questions about traffic. We went back to
Justin and Chick-Fil-A staff, which has done a phenomenal job I
have to say with other store openings, and they plan to do the
same thing here. They have developed a plan to work on the
traffic... adjust the traffic, and I think that was provided to the
Planning Commission staff on how we have a plan in place
already even though the store is probably another 18 months
from opening up. We want to be transparent with that plan and
we want to have the Planning Commission look at it and have the
City look at it and see if we can adjust in any way. We have given
Chick-Fil-A the authority to do this plan and to work inside our
vast parking field that we do have in order to accomplish a
successful opening. I do have to remind everybody that we know
that Novi opened up during COVID conditions and there were no
interior seating allowed. That created a little more influx on the
drive-thru obviously. We all hope that it goes away and we are
allowed to sit in restaurants again. Hopefully, when that does go
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away and by the time that happens and Northville will be opening
soon, so we will have two stores in the area. Northville is
supposed to open up next month. Hopefully, it will drive some of
the honeymoon period over there and get that out of the way so
when this opens up it is not as busy as the other one to begin
with. We have another store hopefully opening up in Canton. We
don't know the timeline on that. But hopefully getting there soon
and deviate from this traffic as well. I know that after the meeting
last week we talked to Mark and he said that the Planning
Commission did have some concerns about the phasing process
and how long this would take, ultimately for the whole project.
Our full intention is to get this done as soon as possible.
Meaning, Phase I with the Chick-Fil-A, Phase II with the out lot
and Phase III with the rehabbing the existing building with all four
facades on it. Timeline ... I would say ... with construction being a
part of it and winter conditions... we would love to get this done
between 18 months, which is a realistic timeline, and possibly two
years. It depends on tenants and what we have going on, but we
are hoping to have this thing completely wrapped up within that
18-month timeline. So, it's not as if we want to go in there and
construct the Chick-Fil-A, and then sit with our arms crossed and
wait for the next tenant. We are aggressively marketing this
development. We have a lot of interest in that out lot. That out
lot could potentially turn into a single -tenant use. We do have a
credit union that is taking a look at it right now. We are coming in
to get the retail approved, but in retail and everything else we do
and everything you are seeing out there is constantly changing.
When our group first purchased the property over a year and half
ago, we put multiple plans in place and let the market dictate to
us what we would ultimately see here. We had a couple different
variations. Thankfully we have come to an agreement with Chick-
Fll-A and hope you all welcome them as we have. We think it is
a good plan. I am here to answer any questions or concerns and
whatever else you guys need.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Jarbou. With you tonight you have Mr. Lurk who
is from Chick-Fil-A, correct?
Mr. Jarbou: Yes, sir.
Mr. Wilshaw: Good evening, Mr. Lurk.
Justin Lurk, Chick-Fil-A, 5200 Buffington, Atlanta, GA 30349. Thank you having
me again. As Mr. Jarbou stated, I would love to be there in
person, but this will have to do for now. As Mr. Jarbou stated, we
regrouped as a team after our call last week. We came up with a
proposed traffic plan. Typically, our grand opening team would
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put that together, but upon your request we certainly understand
this was an item of importance. I think we are faced with a pretty
unique situation here. I wish all of our sites were seven acres to
where we could utilize the majority of that property for our
openings. This will certainly be unique to this property. I certainly
appreciate Mr. Jarbou and team for allowing us to do that. What
you are seeing on the screen now is just a proposed draft of what
a traffic plan could look like. I will try to walk you through that.
So, let's start down on Plymouth Road. If you are heading
westbound on Plymouth Road, all of the red arrows represent
how you could potentially enter into the property or what we think
the traffic plan would be to enter in to the property. We would try
and drive the traffic in to the east Plymouth Road entrance. We
would hope they would pass by the west entrance and
accomplish that with some signage to not allow them to enter into
the second curb cut off of Plymouth Road, but rather direct them
north on Middlebelt Road and then entering in to one of the two
entrances off of Middlebelt Road to queue into our drive-thru lane.
As discussed last week, we would propose temporarily close off
the middle access point off of Middlebelt Road as you are seeing
there. Then if you are heading north on Middlebelt Road and you
missed the first entrance and the middle one is closed off, you
can go all the way to the north entrance and enter there. We
would propose to route traffic all the way around the existing retail
building. Then you can see we would propose to block off the
drive aisle in front of the retail building just so people ... to
consolidate the flow of traffic and not have so many points of
ingress/egress to get into the drive-thru and direct traffic into one
main route to get into the drive-thru. As you pick up your food,
the blue arrows would represent the path that you would take
leaving the drive thru. We would propose to direct all traffic to the
south towards the vacant Walgreen's parcel. Then you have
choices to go north or south off of Middlebelt Road, as you can
see with the blue arrows there, or route around the vacant
Walgreens parcel on that cross access and get down to Plymouth
Road and either head westbound or eastbound on Plymouth
Road. We feel this accomplishes the concern around traffic. We
would provide this draft traffic plan to our grand opening team so
when they do get on site, they got a running start on how to
potentially direct traffic on site. I wanted to go through that. As
was mentioned, that was the main item of importance that we
talked about last week and we are certainly here to answer any
and all questions that either the Commission or the public would
have. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Lurk. Mr. Jarbou, did you want to add an
additional comment?
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Mr. Jarbou: Yes. We have with us Mr. Labadie also. He is the traffic
consultant that was hired to perform a traffic study, piggybacking
off what Mr. Lurk said I would love for him to jump in and
explain...I think he gave you guys a bullet point of that
comprehensive traffic study that he did.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Welcome Mr. Labadie to our meeting tonight.
Michael Labadie, 27280 Haggerty Rd., Ste C-2, Farmington Hills, MI 48331.
Haven't been there for a while. If you would like, I can go through
the study. I don't know if any of you tried to struggle through it or
not. I think the study in itself is one that we started where you
have to get a scope of work for what... in this case, we had to go
to MDOT, and we had to go to the city. Middlebelt is owned by
the county, so we had to go to the county and asked them for a
scope what they wanted to see in the study. We have reflected
that in what we did. As far as the power point goes, the first slide
that you are seeing are the existing conditions. The existing
conditions are... how is it working today and what kind of things
are challenges that... if there are any, and operationally there are
a couple things that we found looking at that. I don't know if you
can see it very well, but there is a kind of a challenge that is there.
If you look at the aerial view and you look at the traffic queues on
Middlebelt Road versus the traffic queues on Plymouth Road, it
is kind of a typical thing that is going on out there. There is a lot
more traffic that we nearly double the traffic on Middlebelt Road
than there is on Plymouth Road. That is a little thing that
shouldn't be going on but is. Anyway, as we went through this
you might wonder how we do traffic counts and do a traffic study
now when hardly anybody at the time is out on the road. We had
to get historical counts. We went out and counted the turning
movements and then we upped the counts based on historical
information. That was something that was accepted by MDOT
and county. Can we scroll to the next ... the way these traffic
studies work, there is an analysis that is put together by the
Federal Highway Administration and it comes up with something
that is called Level of Service. Level of Service has grades, A
through F. A being good and F not being so good. You can see
the ... those are seconds of delay. Those little categories in the
boxes there, and they are a little bit different for signalized
intersection versus an unsignalized intersection. Suffice it to say
the Level of Service D is considered acceptable. There are an
awful lot of intersections like driveways and unsignalized
intersections that come out on to public high -volume roads that
operating at a poor level of service. If you think about ... say you
are in one of the drives or establishments on Middlebelt and you
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try to pull out, you are there 20 seconds to a minute easily
depending on the time of day. Can we go to the next slide? So,
today you have Middlebelt Road and Plymouth Road intersection
operating poorly, relatively speaking. You have the southbound
approach operating at a Level of Service of E. In a lot of cases,
that isn't a bad thing in an urban area with a lot of traffic on it, but
overall, the intersection is operating at a C in the morning and D
in the afternoon. That is a calculation of the four approaches to
come up with a number or a letter for the intersection as a whole.
The others are all stop signs and controlled driveway types and
to have a 40 second delay in the morning at Middlebelt in the
north driveway is ... and there are no gaps in the Middlebelt traffic
is probably what that is telling you. Down on the bottom, the
same thing on Plymouth Road in the evening. In the evening
these are... sometime in the morning between seven and nine
and in the evening between four and six. So, we have some
challenges getting out on to Plymouth Road in the evening with
the Level of Service E. Can we go to the next slide? One of the
things that we found as we looked at this intersection, and to be
honest here, we don't' have any explanation for this yet, but I
can ... I don't even want to speculate, but the intersection right
now, if you have left turn phases, in other words you get a green
arrow to turn left, on the opposite direction it is usually when that
green arrow is on, the opposite direction right turns are able to be
made without any conflicts either. In this intersection, what we
are proposing is that this intersection could stand to have that,
and it doesn't. We are saying that that is something good to add.
It reduces the delay and people get a green indication and can
make a right turn and the opposite direction of the left turns.
Another important thing that is not there but should be it seems is
that push buttons are there for people crossing Plymouth Road
but not crossing Middlebelt. Middlebelt is the one that needs
more green time. Right now, Plymouth is getting more green time
than it should and not only that, but it can't give any to Middlebelt
because there is no pedestrian buttons. The idea of the
pedestrian push button is that it gives some minimum green time,
but it doesn't give all the green time that would be necessary for
a pedestrian to walk all the way across the five or six lanes. So,
if there were push buttons there the intersection would be able
reallocate green time and give it to Middlebelt and those queues
that you see in the aerial wouldn't be there, or certainly wouldn't
be as long. We are ... those two things are existing items that we
are not sure why they are there because it wasn't that long ago
the intersection was modernized. I am not real sure about that,
but it needs to get dealt with. It is an MDOT and Wayne County
coordination thing, I think. None the less, somebody is going to
have to go back out there and do it. Next slide. Well, you already
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learned about that. Next slide. So, in the future, if you notice
there are two tables here. One with improvements and one with
no improvements. If you don't fix the challenges that I have
pointed out at Middlebelt and Plymouth, you end up with some
new challenges when you add our site development traffic to it
and you grow the background traffic. As far as the other driveway
approaches, the delays go up because there are again,
especially coming out on to Middlebelt, it is going to get worse
until we get it fixed... getting the signal fixed... with better traffic
flow and more gaps to get out. That is where... this one shows
that there is an awful lot of information that says we need to get
that intersection timed better. Future improvements show that
the Middlebelt and Plymouth intersection get better with those
changes as we talked about. The middle driveway has some
challenges in the PM peak hour and the Plymouth Road east
driveway has some challenges during the PM peak hour. For the
most part, the site can accommodate the traffic, but there is some
changes that need to be made at the intersection. Can we go to
the next slide? I kind of already explained some of this. To save
some time, but not only does it add the green arrows and the
pedestrian push buttons but we are talking about changing the
cycling on the traffic signal as well. We are also recommending
that there be one lane inbound and two lanes ... so each approach
would be three lanes instead of two coming out of the site. Next
slide. Any questions? I mean it is kind of a big report and I tried
to gloss over it a little bit, but does anyone have any questions
that I can help with?
Mr. Wilshaw: I agree, Mr. Labadie, it is difficult to go through an entire traffic
report in a short time, but you did a good job. Do we have any
questions for staff at this point? I see Mr. Taormina has his hand
up.
Mr. Taormina: Mr. Labadie, could you please explain something? When you
identify westbound traffic at the north driveway, what exactly are
you referring to? I am guessing northbound and southbound are
the vehicles turning out of the north driveway heading either north
or south on Middlebelt. And maybe eastbound is the traffic turning
from Middlebelt Road into the site, but what is westbound?
Mr. Labadie: There is a challenge ... can you see ... move your arrow up a bit.
There is a driveway that is offset. You see that? It is on the west
side of the road.
Mr. Taormina: Maybe if I go to the aerial photograph it will show it?
December 16, 2020
29816
Mr. Labadie: You can't quite see it. Right there, yeah. Traffic actually uses
that. We counted that as an adjacent street. It makes it a little
difficult if they happen to go out of there because there is a lot
more cars and there is an offset kind of conflict.
Mt. Taormina: Okay, so to just clarify, when you say westbound you are talking
about traffic that would exit this north driveway and cross over
Middlebelt Road and enter...
Mr. Labadie: No, they are just going westbound out of that approach.
Mr. Taormina: They are going westbound from here?
Mr. Labadie: Out of that approach, whether they turn left or right, I assume not
too many go straight through.
Mr. Taormina: Okay, so westbound refers to vehicles exiting the site?
Mr. Labadie: Correct. It will have a right, a thru, and a left out of there.
Mr. Taormina: So, the Level of Service relates then to all the turning movements
at Middlebelt at the north driveway.
Mr. Labadie: Correct.
Mr. Taormina: But, then northbound itself are referring specifically to through
traffic on Middlebelt Road or turning vehicles?
Mr. Labadie: Through traffic on Middlebelt.
Mr. Taormina: Through traffic?
Mr. Labadie: Middlebelt doesn't have to stop so it is free.
Mr. Taormina: Thank you, that helps. It helps me to better understand the
structure of the report.
Mr. Labadie: I tried to make it easy, but it is what it is.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions from the Commissioners?
Mr. Caramagno: I do agree it is hard to lay this out in a short period of time, but
there was a lot of discussion about the changes that need to
occur at the intersection. Wayne County and DOT. Whose
responsibility is that and what would be the time frame in
coordination with a Chick-Fil-A here?
December 16, 2020
29817
Mr. Labadie: That is a problem. There is no Chick-Fil-A out there and those
queues and the poor operation that is happening today ... who is
responsible for that? It seems to me that Wayne County should
have complained, and they may not be aware of it. I don't know.
They should have complained to MDOT when they did this. It is
an existing problem, and it is something that should be worked
out because when you have a signalized intersection with an
MDOT road... MDOT actually owns the signal, so the participation
in the cost and design of the changes should have been
coordinated through Wayne County. I don't really have a good
explanation why it works the way it does.
Mr. Caramagno: I understand that, but in putting aChick-Fil A on this corner and
rehabbing the corner, which it needs, it further contributes to the
problem. What gets MDOT on the ball here? Or Wayne County
on the ball? Does the developer put a request in that he has a
problem with the intersection that he shares? Or who gets this
thing cooking?
Mr. Labadie: Hopefully the city now knows about it, and the city gets a hold of
Wayne County and the State and they point out that Mike Labadie
came up with this problem in this study at this intersection, can
we meet about it. I think that is what you should do. It is a strange
unique problem, but I think it is something that the city should run
with because you know about it. Wayne County and MDOT do
not know about it right now. Unless you want the developer to
contact them, but it would have more clout to get done is the city
did it.
Mr. Jarbou: We are more than willing to work with Mr. Taormina and also
Wayne County and MDOT to try figure out how to get this thing
resolved. Mr. Labadie said that this is an existing issue... Mike
with making the corrections there it obviously existing the way it
is it would help it tremendously, but with the refinement that you
are proposing and having the Chick-Fil-A there, it could still work
in your opinion I am assuming.
Mr. Labadie; Yes.
Mr. Jarbou: We have done this in other areas where we have gone into
redevelop. We would be more than happy to work with whoever
it is on the city staff, but we would need some support from them
to carry more clout with Wayne County and MDOT, but we are
more than willing to step up and get that done. Hopefully, with
the timeframe that we do have which we have done in the past.
Wayne County has been a bit difficult to get a hold of, but MDOT
December 16, 2020
29818
has been great to work with, but we are more than willing to
interject and try to get that resolved.
Mr. Wilshaw; Perhaps our City Engineer can help facilitate that as our official
in the city that is responsible for engineering and traffic
engineering to that extent.
Mr. Jarbou: That would be a great thing if we could get him involved. Mr.
Labadie, your engineer and us, we can show a good force and
get this thing done.
Mr. Wilshaw; it is interesting that you pointed out that the right turn lane signal,
the arrows, aren't there and that is a recommendation to improve
those because I have noticed in the last several years many
intersections as they have been upgraded, being this one and
Farmington and others, have been removing those arrows. I
don't know if that is a change in the Michigan Manual of Traffic
Control Devices or why these right turn arrows are being
removed, but it is something 1 have noticed at many intersections
around the city.
Mr. Labadie: I don't know if they are for the same reason, I am not sure. It
might just be ... you would have to check it out as to why they are
taking those out. This is a popular thing to do. It helps.
Mr. Wilshaw: Yeah. There
are a
lot of people
that will sit at the intersection and
wait because
they
aren't sure if
they can go or not.
Mr. Labadie: Correct.
Mr. Wilshaw: Interesting. I didn't know as a traffic engineer if you were aware
of any changes of rules that would justify why they are taking
these out.
Mr. Labadie: Sometimes...) don't want to speak for...make it too generic, but
sometimes they are up for the wrong reasons when they are
making improvements. You don't see too many of them with this
doghouse kind of configuration.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. Good Point. Any other questions for the petitioner?
Mr. Bongero: Going back on Sam's point, so right now it needs to be adjusted
the way it is right now. So, right now you are saying this
intersection, whether Chick-Fil-A goes in or not, should have
these timing adjustments and modifications done, correct/
Mr. Labadie: Correct.
December 16, 2020
29819
Mr. Bongero: Okay, so with Chick-Fil-A there, we know it is going to increase
the volume tremendously. At least through the honeymoon
period it is going to be a lot of people trying to figure out the entire
entrance and exit... so, if the city doesn't step in, to me this would
have to be resolved before that Chick-Fil-A opens or we are going
to have chaos. That would be my thought. Would you agree with
that?
Mr. Labadie: I don't know about chaos; I don't know about that. I do know it
sure would make things a lot better if it was. Either with or without
the Chick-Fil-A it would be a good thing to do. It is important. I
don't know that... certainly if you put a Chick-Fil-A in without
making the improvements we are going to have to look at retiming
that signal to make it at least a little more optimal than it is now.
Some of it ... a couple of the things... although I am 99% sure it is
not 100% right thing to do, but you could set it up so you just had
the pedestrian crossings the opposite of what they have there
now. That would help a lot to reassign green times for pedestrian
crossings. As far as the arrows and that, that could take a little
bit longer, but there are some short-term things that you could do
real quick that I don't' think would take very much to do. I still
think you are right. It would be great to have this done before
Chick-Fil-A and the sites operate. It's not that hard to get it done,
it's just a matter of getting everyone to agree to it and
unfortunately there are three parties here.
Mr. Bongero: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions for our petitioners?
Ms. McCue: I think at one point you had mentioned that the middle entrance
off of Middlebelt would be temporarily blocked. Am I correct?
During the opening phase, did I hear right?
Mr. Lurk: That was a recommendation that we had.
Ms. McCue: Okay. How long, just hypothetically, because I agree with you, I
think the honeymoon phase is going to be critical in there, but
what was your thought process when you created this flow? How
long would you think this would be closed or blocked off? Would
it always be blocked off? During peak time?
Mr. Lurk: I think it would be blocked off ... instead of just cones, because we
have all seen that people don't adhere to cones, that you might
need some more permanent barricades for a week or two starting
off while everyone gets used to it. That would be my initial feel.
December 16, 2020
29820
I think
that
is up to ...
once we get open, we would certainly have
to play
that
by ear.
Ms. McCue: Okay, the other thing is that the traffic bureau had indicated that
they would like to have a right turn only indication at that exit as
well. What is, I am not sure who that question is geared toward,
but what are your thoughts for that? Trying to get out of that
particular exit and turn left on to Middlebelt during peak times is
going to be challenging.
Mr. Labadie: If we get the signal retimed and the modifications implemented
that we talked about you won't have the queues that you have
there now, so whether or not you are trying to relate to the existing
condition, just know that the existing condition could be quite a bit
improved. Again though, it is the operation of a stop sign
controlled access on to a high -volume road is the function of
gaps. There are fewer gaps on the higher volumes, so it is going
to be more of a challenge getting in and out. Not to the level
though where we would agree that a right turn only needs to be
there. We are going to have to get some kind of approval from
Wayne County too because they control the permit. It would be
probably a call by Wayne County, and they would probably allow
it the way it is the way we are recommending it with three lanes.
Two out and one in. If some sort of problem manifested itself,
they may resort to a right turn only.
Ms. McCue: Okay.
Mr. Jarbou: Just to clarify, the gaps you speak of in your traffic study would
indicate that at Middlebelt there would be a stop and at that point
it would create the gap to allow someone to make a left turn lane
and that is what you are talking about adjusting the timing on the
particular light to allow that gap to happen.
Mr. Labadie: The intersection
traffic
would
clear
more
regularly and
completely. Right
now, it
doesn't
do that.
That's
the point
Mr. Jarbou: If you were to time those more efficiently, even now, that would
help our tremendously. With having the Chick-Fil-A there it would
create the gap that is needed, and the honeymoon period is done
someone could make a left turn successfully out of there, correct?
Mr. Labadie: Correct.
Mr. Jarbou: One more thing. With your experience and with what you have
done here, I am sure that not all of us have had the experience
that you have, how difficult of a process is it to work with Wayne
December 16, 2020
29821
County and MDOT to get these changes implemented and would
we ... if we are talking ... with the blessing of the Planning
Commission and having this be a fall opening, is that timeline
appropriate to get these changes done?
Mr. Labadie: If we
get moving,
yeah. We are going to need the city on this,
so it
seems that
the city would be committed to
getting
this to
work
better. It is
not a problem if we can get help
with the
city.
Mr. Jarbou: I just wanted to clarify that.
Mr. Wilshaw: Ms. McCue, are you all set?
Ms. McCue: Yes, I am all set.
Mr. Wilshaw: Any other commissioners with questions for our petitioner?
Mr. Long: I am just echoing Ms. McCue's concern about the left turn on to
Middlebelt Road. I also see the suggested path of the exit on to
Plymouth with a right and left turn option. I think you are going to
have the same problems turning left. Again, not necessarily a
question for anybody, but as this is all looked at it has to include
thoughts about that as well.
Mr. Wilshaw: That is a good point Mr. Long. In regard to gaps in the
southbound traffic on Middlebelt, which seems to be the bigger
concern that we have. The thing creating those gaps will be the
traffic light probably up by Costco and Millennium Park because
that is the next most northern light that would create those gaps
for the southbound cars.
Mr. Long: I know you are going to have that light at Middlebelt to stop the
eastbound traffic...) mean, that intersection stacks up pretty good
with westbound traffic. I know people can sometimes be polite
and sometimes they can't be, but you know...I think that will be a
challenge. I don't know how you solve that unless you do left
turns out of the eastern most driveway, or at least try to direct
people down that way.
Or.
Wilshaw: Right,
Or.
Long: Not really a question, more of a comment. Thank you.
Or.
Wilshaw: Any other questions or comments?
Or.
Ventura: I guess this
is for Mr. Labadie. I am looking
at your
report.
Trip
generation
for proposed development and
I have
never
really
December 16, 2020
29822
read a traffic report before so I am going to say that I am
interpreting this, but my question is, is that an estimate of added
traffic that you think Chick-Fil-A is going to add to this area?
Mr. Labadie: Are you looking at Table 1 in the report?
Mr. Ventura: I am.
Mr. Labadie: Okay, good. That is not just Chick-Fil-A. It is other parts of the
development as well. The Chick-Fil-A numbers, the third list
down talks about the type of land use and it talks about the size.
It says am in, am out, and total. That will be the total number of
inbound in the morning during that peak hour. 51 and then 54 out
for a total of 105. The peak hour in the morning is sometime
between seven and nine. In the afternoon, sometime between
four and six. The reason that those times are there, is because
those are the times that traffic peaks on Middlebelt and Plymouth.
Yes, that is the numbers that will be forjust the Chick-Fil-A during
those hours.
Mr. Ventura: If I
read the
footnote under the chart correctly,
these are all based
on
a Chick-Fil-A
down in South Bend, Indiana.
Is that correct?
Mr. Labadie: Correct. They have...
Mr. Ventura: Why did you not use the store in Novi?
Mr. Labadie: Well, the store in Novi...nobody collected that data. These are
studies that were done by other firms before the data was
published. It is pretty much accepted practice to use the similar
uses generating similar trips. That is not an uncommon thing. If
I were to ... if you were to look at the shopping center numbers for
example. If you go into the IT trip generation manual, you will
probably find out that there are hundreds of offices from all over
the country, not just from around here. That is kind of how it is
done.
Mr. Ventura: I will take your word for that. My only experience is with Novi and
the volume that I think that Mr. Lurk used, is honeymoon period
that they had out there. It has been literally hundreds of cars in
the parking lot waiting to get into the line to get on site and once
they are on site, based on my count when I drove through about
a week ago, there were between 70 and 80 cars in line. I am
imagining that during the honeymoon period here, we could see
200 or 300 cars waiting to get on this site.
Mr. Labadie: That is possible.
December 16, 2020
29823
Mr. Ventura: I don't know where you put them.
Mr. Jarbou: Mr. Ventura, that is also because there are no restaurants open
right now. You are very limited on food. That has something to
do with it I would say. Also, I don't know if Novi is a good
indication of what is maybe... they don't have the parking field that
we do. I would be more than happy to pick you up and we can
go to Allen Park and they have the parking field. We can talk it
over with a chicken sandwich. I am just trying to compare apples
to apples. It is unfortunate that COVID is ... what is happening,
but a tremendous amount of restaurants are closed and
the... obviously, choices are very limited when you want to go out
now. I am not trying to deter and say that it won't bring traffic, it
definitely will.
Mr. Labadie: Frank, there is another point for Mr. Ventura that we have to keep
in mind here too. That there is not a lot of competition for the Novi
site yet. The popularity is going to wane as you get more Chick-
Fil-A's constructed. There are a few more coming online soon.
That will influence the outcome of the traffic that is going to be
too. That is why the traffic numbers that we put into the study
from Indiana was because that is a steady state before COVID.
Mr. Ventura: I guess, first of all, Mr. Lurk said you don't put these restaurants
close together. The closest he said you put them together is five
miles. So, when I went to a source that provides me with
demographic information, I discovered that the population within
five miles of Novi is half of the population within five miles of this
restaurant. I don't see Northville and Canton relieving pressure
on Livonia. I think we are going to have tremendous response to
this restaurant. It is all good for everybody, but I am not
convinced that we have a plan that is going to accommodate the
kind of the traffic that this thing is going to generate during the
honeymoon period. I am not sure that we have a plan that is
going to accommodate traffic on a continuous basis. I was talking
about this in my office and one of the people that works with me
sent me a FOX news article that talked about Chick-Fil-A in Ohio
being sued by the adjacent businesses because the Chick-Fil-A
traffic was using their parking lot and blocking entrance to their
businesses. We have a McDonald's immediately to the north of
this. We have a huge shopping center southwest of it and
shopping south of it. We have all kinds of neighbors around here
and the last thing we want to do is choke off the circulation in this
area to the extent that it damages their businesses and creates
an ongoing problem. I guess that is a thought. I agree with Ms.
McCue and other commissioners making a left turn out of this
December 16, 2020
29824
site, either to Middlebelt or Plymouth Road, is going to be not
impossible. I understand, Mr. Labadie, that you are doing a lot of
projections here, which is what you do for a living and I respect
that, but in your presentation, you made reference to Wayne
County and MDOT many many times and urged that we need
their help to resolve this, which I certainly am not arguing with,
but I am uncomfortable approving this without having some
response from them to say yeah. Your traffic study makes sense,
and we agree with this and let's get this done, or no we don't
agree with this and we have some other plans that need to be
accommodated and some other solutions that we you to
consider. At this point, you are asking us to approve this on faith.
Having seen what has happened in Novi, I have to tell you that I
am not a believer at this point. I apologize for that, but that is just
exactly the way that I feel. I have to be honest with you. One
other point was that at our study meeting we talked about how we
regulate traffic in the roadways. Out in Novi they have private
security people because the ring road around the shopping
center is a private road. They are not (inaudible) to Mr. Taormina
and others able to private security people and not be able to
regulate traffic and on the state and county roads you need police
officers. I believe Mr. Jarbou, or somebody said that we will hire
police officers. Who determines when they are needed? Who
pays for them? I understand that this restaurant is going to be
owned by an individual. I don't see him at this meeting, and I
don't hear him making a promise to us that yeah, he is going to
spend the money to hire these police officers, or to pay the city
back for the expense that it incurs when we have a couple
hundred cars trying to get into this site and people trying to turn
left and turn right and go all over the place and try to figure this
out. After the restaurant is there for a couple years, I am sure it
will get figured out, but we don't want to do a lot of damage in the
period of time that we are waiting for everybody to figure out how
to navigate this site and to enjoy a Chick-Fil-A sandwich.
Personally, I feel like we are a little bit ahead of the curve here
because I don't feel that we have the honeymoon period traffic,
that I feel certain is going to be generated, based on the
surrounding population and the lack of adjacent restaurants
figured out. I have a bunch of other notes, but I have taken up
enough time and I think I have made it plain how I feel. I would
be much happier and feel much more confident in approving this
if we had more answers that somebody was saying that yeah this
has been approved by MDOT and it has been approved by the
county and here is how this is all going to work and with some
degree of certainty that everybody kind of bought in to. Thank
you.
December 16, 2020
29825
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. What I am hearing from you is, and I
think it is a very good point, is you would definitely feel more
comfortable if you had folks like the City Engineer and MDOT and
Wayne County kind of signing off on this in advance and saying
yes, we have looked at this and we know what the plan is. We
are going to do this; we are going to do that. We know that this
is not going to crater the entire traffic flow in the area, correct?
Mr. Ventura: Mr. Chairman, you stated it better than I did. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: That is what I heard. You said it very eloquently and it is an
excellent point, so thank you. We have Mr. Taormina next and
we will see if anyone else wants to speak.
Mr. Taormina: Thank you. To Frank and maybe Justin, I have questions
regarding this graphic and the grand opening period, which refers
to comments that Mr. Ventura made relative to the impact of
adjacent commercial properties. I am looking at this plan and
wondering how it might impact the expected occupancy of the
building in the southwest corner, the former Walgreens. I
understand that you may have cross access agreements in place
to utilize these driveways, but am wondering, and this is
something to explore as we move forward through this process,
whether the incoming drive-thru traffic could be rerouted further
to the north through the parking lot, to the extent that the site will
be under construction have extra capacity. It would have far less
impact on the corner property, realizing that it could be occupied
or under construction by then, and there would not be much traffic
demand for the other retail uses, except maybe the Office Depot.
You would also have the flexibility of adding a second westbound
lane somewhere in the middle of the parking lot that could then
turn north to the driveway. I throw that out as a suggestion,
because I really see a lot of potential conflicts here, especially if
the corner property is under development or occupied by the time
the Chick-Fil-A is open.
Mr. Jarbou: We have no problem with that. No problem at all. We can
definitely get that done. Justin, can you speak to and help Mr.
Ventura understand that when new stores do open up and how
far they are away, how much it impacts the... if Northville opens
up next month and where Novi is right now and hopefully, we are
in a COVID free, not COVID free but restaurants are back open
with sit down seating, what do you feel that is going to pull away
from a Chick-Fil-A in Livonia?
Mr. Lurk: So,
there were
quite a few
comments brought
up and I do agree
with
you Frank.
We looked
at putting that drive
or temporary drive
December 16, 2020
29826
a little bit further north to try and get that merge point as far away
from the Chick-Fil-A building and we chose the south, but again
this is a draft, and this could be a fluid plan. The good news here
is it is over seven acres. I can't think of another Chick-Fil-A in our
portfolio where we had seven acres to work with. I think that
should give us a little more peace of mind. Some of the other
locations that we are talking about are an acre, less than an acre
or an acre and a half, right? So, I think that is one advantage to
this location. With that and the fact that there is multiple ingress
and egress points that gives customers choices... helps here as
well. To go off of facts and figures and again to reference the
west side of the state when we opened up in Grand Rapids, we
opened up Grand Rapids South as our first location and saw
similar demand that you are seeing in Novi right now under
COVID, pre-COVID conditions. Then we opened up our second
location in Wyoming, Michigan, which was about six or seven
miles away and the staff there was concerned as well, but at that
opening they only saw the honeymoon phase filling out of our site
just that first weekend. We have a letter of support from a city
official over there to another city stating the same thing. I think
you are overestimating the honeymoon period. We only saw that
during the opening weekend. I think that is a good example of
what we could be faced with here. I wanted to bring that up again
as well. One point was you're not hearing from our local
owner/operator. That is fora reason. They haven't been selected
yet. The way our model works is that corporately we find the sites
and we work with developers like Mr. Jarbou. We go through the
city process because this is a sole source of income. This is their
only source of income. We bring the franchise owner/operator on
right before the store would open. They have to terminate any
previous employment, so they are without a check for a while.
We can't ask them to be doing that for a year. Sometimes it is a
year or 18 months is we go through a city process with
construction and development. The local franchisee
owner/operator would be working with the city and again we
would typically hire private security to help with traffic, but a lot of
municipalities will just put cops out there to be proactive. They
don't always charge us back, but when they do, we are happy to
oblige and help out because that is a service they are providing.
I wanted to answer those questions as well. Does that help?
Mr. Wilshaw: It does. Thank you, Mr. Lurk. Let me see if there is anyone else
on the commission...we have spent a fair amount of time on this
already, and I don't want to let anyone get missed. Is there
anyone else on the commission wishing to address this
development with the Chick-Fil-A, traffic, or any of the other
buildings on this site?
December 16, 2020
29827
Ms. Smiley: I am having a lot of technical difficulties and I lost you for a little
bit there, but did they do a traffic survey on Haggerty? Was there
any traffic survey prepared for that?
Mr. Lurk: Yes, there was a traffic study done on Northville. I think that is
what you are referring to, the Haggerty Road location in
Northville. Yes ma'am. There was a traffic study done there and
there were no improvements recommended based on that traffic
study, but there was a previous pending improvement from
Target. They added the traffic signal at one of our entrances.
Again, that was an improvement that Target had put up there.
So, if you go there now you will see a traffic signal to get into the
Kohl's development that is across from the Target development
as well.
Ms. Smiley: Okay.
Mr. Lurk: There was not a signal there when we first started looking.
Ms. Smiley: There are now currently a lot of signals on Haggerty Road. That
Haggerty and Seven Mile Road area. I know there was some
building going on there and they are supposed to synchronize all
the lights because there are so many and there is another
building going up on Seven Mile or another development right on
Seven Mile just by the 1-275 exit, so I just wondered if there was
any... there were no recommendations is what you are saying?
Mr. Lurk: That is correct.
Ms. Smiley: Okay, thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. Any other questions from any of the
commissioners?
Mr. Bongero: For Mr. Jarbou. Phase I sequence...just so 1 am trying to get a
handle on what you would accomplish with Phase I would be
come in, tear up the west end of that existing strip mall, rebuild
that end, and do partial fagade coming around the front and side,
build the Chick-Fil-A, do the underground detention front and
back, right, and then resurface the whole parking lot? Is that what
you plan is? Like all the way up the drive up off of Plymouth Road
all the way over to Middlebelt. That is all going to be done in
Phase I?
Or.
Jarbou: So, we
can
definitely work in
those
parameters.
What we
normally
do is
on a situation like
this is,
like you said,
we come in
December 16, 2020
29828
there, demo the building, reconstruct that west wall, and wrap
around the front to where the Office Depot is and hopefully by
then we would have a tenant for that last bay over there and do
that as well and then all four sides would be done. There would
be new pavement around the entire site and even if we didn't
have tenants for maybe Phase 11. At that point, we would still
build that out and make it an at ready condition so we wouldn't
have to go back in there with heavy equipment so that... make the
pads at ready condition. Maybe leave it dirt but leave the parking
field intact and create more parking and just also redo the
landscape beds and redo the lighting with brand new LED
lighting. We want to get as much done as possible. It costs more
money to continue to come back and do Phase I, Phase 11, Phase
III. 1 would love to just come in and just do all of it at once.
Mr. Bongero: That is what my thought was too. I mean if you're going to do all
that it is going to be pretty much restored and it is going to look
pretty good until you do any of the other phases. It will pretty
much be ready to go, right? I mean everything is going to be
new...
Mr. Jarbou: Any additional work would be interior fit outs for each individual
tenants. To just come back here and just do this long-drawn-out
process over a three-year period doesn't make sense or
economic sense. It doesn't make sense to the community. It's
always under construction. We want to get as much as possibly
done... again, I would love to do it all at once. That is what our
goal is, to get it all done at once. Even if we were to leave the
interior bays on the inside vacant, we do build these a little
bit ... the storefronts are interchangeable, so if we did get a tenant
in and wanted a door in a certain place, we can do that. It costs
a little bit more money, but it is easier to do that than to do full
blown construction on a site like this.
Mr. Bongero: Okay. That answers my question.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions from any of the
commissioners? If not, let me check with our audience. First,
before I go to the audience, there are some other folks, Mr.
Jarbou, on your team that are in our audience. Is there anyone
else on your team that is wishing to speak regarding what we
have heard so far? If so, you can always click raise hand so we
can recognize you and let you speak. If not, I do want to go to
the audience and give them a chance to speak for or against this
petition since this is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the
audience who would like to speak for or against this item? If so,
you can click raise hand. I don't see anybody raising their hand,
December 16, 2020
29829
so I will go back to the commission and see if anyone else on the
commission wishing to ask any questions or make any
comments. I don't see anyone, so then I will take one last shot
to the petitioner, Mr. Jarbou. Is there anything else you would like
to say before we close the public hearing and make our decision?
Mr. Ja, ou. Yes. I would just like to add that this is maybe looked at as heavy
traffic, intensive development. I think if you look at the overall
plan and what we are planning on here is enhancing a very
dilapidated development that sat vacant for a very long time. As
I indicated in the first meeting, this was an out of state owner I
bugged for years to sell it to me so that we could go in there and
redevelop it. This is what our specialty is. We go into sites like
this that have been absentee owners that don't care about it and
revitalize it. We have done numerous developments around
town. Mr. Taormina, if you want to reach out to Plymouth or
Canton, I am sure the Planning Commission or the planning guys
out there would give you a thumbs up on what we have done. We
hold true to what we do. We follow-thru. We work hand in hand
with the city to make sure that our plan works for them and for
everyone in the community. I want to add too that Justin has
done a tremendous job in a lot of store openings. I can't tell you
how many store openings he had done. He has done quite a bit.
With him and his team, they are very committed when it comes
to a situation like this and the ability to develop a site like this and
work with the municipality and work with the local operator and
try to execute correctly. I think that we have an advantage on our
site that aren't always there for Chick-Fil-A. If you look at the
Seven and Haggerty location, it probably sits on an acre and a
half. Again, we are sitting on seven acres, which we are basically
vacant, and we can accommodate and stack and help with the
traffic flow. When we look at Novi over there, you are looking at
one point of ingress and egress, where we have five multiple
points of ingress and egress. We have identified the signals that
can be changed and help. I really feel that Wayne County and
MDOT, with the city's help, we can get definitely get them to
agree that this is a better format of what Mr. Labadie
recommends. We can definitely get that done in the timeframe
for this Chick-Fil-A to open, if it is approved. I just hope that
everyone recognizes the amount of effort and work that we have
put into this. A lot of thought. We didn't just slap a plan together
and say hey can we get this approved? No. We put a lot of time
and effort in understanding and working with Mark. He has been
tremendous to work with and the feedback that we have gotten
from you guys. I think we ... within a week Justin got us back a
plan of opening when normally they don't even have those plans
in place except maybe a couple months prior to opening. We
December 16, 2020
29830
wanted to make sure that you had all the information and data
that you do have. We have spent a lot of time and money and
effort to consult with Mr. Labadie to understand and what needs
to be done with those lights. Can the site accommodate a Chick-
Fil-A? He addressed that it can by making those adjustments to
the lights. As developers, we are fully committed to getting that
done and working with the city and county and MDOT to work on
that. I would appreciate and hope that we get this plan approved
and can move forward. Again, we are not absentee owners, and
we are not out of state. Our offices are just down the street. Mr.
Taormina and I will become good friends, whether he likes it or
not and understand how to get this thing done and get it executed.
Thank you for your time.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Jarbou. I'll just let you know that Mr. Taormina is
a very easy to make friends with. You're in good shape there. If
there are no other comments, I am going to close the public
hearing at this time and a motion would be in order.
Mr. Ventura: I just want to compliment Mr. Jarbou and Mr. Lurk and Mr.
Labadie on their presentation today and ensure them, at least
personally, that I am in favor of the Chick-Fil-A being here and I
want to compliment them on their preparation and presentation
tonight. Certainly Mr. Jarbou makes a great case, but that said I
am still not comfortable with the traffic solutions and the many
open questions that surround what MDOT and Wayne County
may or may not do.
Tabling motion made by Ventura.
The motion failed due to Zack of support.
Mr. Wilshaw: Another motion would be in order.
Mr. Caramagno: In looking at the approving resolution, #9 and #10, and speak to
having traffic agreement with the county and with MDOT prior to
opening. Can that language be stiffened up in any way that
deems proper to accomplish what Pete wanted to do and what
we need to do to make sure this thing is right?
Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Taormina, do you have any thoughts on that?
Or.
Taormina: Well, one thought that comes to mind is between the time this
item finds its way to City Council that every effort be made to
accomplish exactly what Mr. Ventura suggested. That is, to get
some level of comfort from the other governmental agencies,
Wayne County and MDOT, regarding the proposed traffic
December 16, 2020
29831
improvements. Maybe Mr. Caramagno could read aloud each of
the conditions.
Mr. Caramagno: I can do that. Number 9 -that not less than six (6) weeks prior to
the scheduled opening of the Chick-fil-A restaurant, the Petitioner
shall submit to the Department of Public Safety Traffic Bureau for
its review and approval details of how traffic will be managed,
both on- and off -site, during the times when the stacking capacity
of the drive-thru lanes is exceeded or when undue traffic
congestion is occurring on the adjacent public thoroughfares.
And number 10 — that all traffic improvements, including additions
or modifications to the traffic signals, approach geometrics, or
traffic lanes, as deemed necessary by either Wayne County or
the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) to mitigate
the traffic impacts of the project, shall be completed prior to the
opening of the restaurant. I think that is what some of us find
necessary. Is it binding enough to say that yeah, we need
something from the MDOT and the county in writing or an
agreement prior to this thing opening, even after all your work is
done?
Mr. Taormina: My comment is really related to number ten. We can add or
modify the language as the commission sees fit. The other thing
I would maybe change is the term "traffic impacts of this project"
by just stating "traffic impacts". After listening to the traffic
consultant talk about the improvements needed for the existing
conditions and other improvements recommended to mitigate the
project impacts, we should make sure all the improvements are
undertaken. That cost really must be borne by the developer. I
don't know what that would be ... clearly the approach
modifications are something the developer has in the plans. The
other improvements, the signal timing and the pedestrian signals,
I am guessing are not significant cost, but they are something that
needs to be coordinated between the City, the County, and the
State.
Mr. Caramagno: So, does that come back to be within the timeframe of this
project? Or does anybody know that?
Mr. Taormina: They would certainly have to be completed before the restaurant
opens. Was that your question, Mr. Caramagno?
Mr. Caramagno: Yeah. Is it realistic that those things can be done, and if we are
talking about the fall forthis to open...with COVID and who knows
what 2021 is going to hold?
December 16, 2020
29832
Mr. Taormina: Yes. These are not very capital intense projects, and I will let Mr.
Labadie respond further to this, but we are not adding or replacing
signals. While there may be some additional cost and time for
modifying and upgrading the signals, I do not think these items
are out of the realm of possibilities and could all be completed
prior to the opening of the restaurant. Mr. Labadie?
Mr. Labadie: You are right about that. I don't know if it is insignificant. I don't
want to write the check, but I am going to guess that you have to
add some signal heads and hopefully all of the spans work out.
The push buttons have to have their little pedestals and have
them be in the right places. I don't know. It is probably less than
$50,000 but I am not 100% sure. We didn't really sit down to
figure that out. I could have, but I didn't do that. It is also not just
a matter of having to put in something that is going to take a long
lead time to ... for example, the signal poles. It is roughly 18
months to get a steel signal pole. This can be done and
designed. The question is to get it approved and someone
committed to doing it. That is the question. It can get done in the
time this is going to open up. That is for sure.
Mr. Wilshaw: I think that is the main thing we are hearing from our
commissioners. That we realize that this is going to cause a
traffic impact. We want to try and minimize that traffic impact in
the area as much as possible so that we don't want to get into the
situation where the development moves forward and there is a
traffic nightmare and then we are trying to wedge in fixes for that
after the fact. We want to see those come online before.
Mr. Labadie: I understand. The folks from Chick-Fil-A want the same thing. I
would guess thought that...) shouldn't guess. I don't know why
the intersection is the way it is. It seems as though it shouldn't
be. There is nothing really... it doesn't make sense to me, but a
lot of things sometimes don't. Working with MDOT and the city
and the county, I don't think it is going to be a big problem. We
can get it done.
Or.
Jarbou: In one breath I told you that we are committed to the city and we
are here to work with you and in the next breath I am going to tell
you that if there is a cost to bear on this, we are more than willing
to take that on. We can definitely. We will take on the project of
getting this approved. I think we can get approved prior to Chick-
Fil-A opening if you want to make that part of your conditions. If
there is a cost to bear with that, we want to make this
improvement to the city and we will do that and we will bear that
cost.
December 16, 2020
29833
Mr, Wilshaw: Those are usually words to Wayne County's ears.
Mr. Jarbou; I am sure it is.
Mr. Bongero: I have a question.
Mr. Jarbou: Plus, I have a chicken sandwich to buy for Mr. Ventura.
Mr. Wilshaw: Go ahead Mr. Bongero.
Mr. Bongero: Mr. Labadie, would you propose these changes to the county and
to MDOT and then their traffic experts either agree or disagree.
You kind of go back around and somehow you guys agree to what
is going to fix this. Who enforces it? Mark, is that the Building
Department that enforces it before it opens? Who is out there
watching it be adjusted and then stood up and that's it? It's
perfect, let's go. Do you know what I am saying?,:'
Mr. Taormina: That would be coordinated between the different agencies and
city departments to make sure that the project was completed as
agreed upon. The Inspection Department ultimately would take
direction from either Planning or Engineering and maybe even
MDOT to make sure everything is working out appropriately
before issuing the occupancy permit.
Mr. Bongero: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. So, we are back looking for a motion.
Mr. Ventura: Mr. Chairman, just a point of clarification before we move forward.
Mr. Taormina, item ten in the approving Peso lution,...so this thing
gets approved and they get a building permit, and they build the
building, who or what entity makes sure that all of the traffic
recommendations, as they are worked out between MDOT the
county, are done prior to the issuance of Certificate of
Occupancy?
Mr. Taormina: I am going to suggest that it be the role of our Engineering
Department and MDOT and Wayne County. I am not sure about
where the coordination and responsibilities lie. Maybe Mr.
Labadie knows. I believe most of that is Wayne County.
Or,
Labadie: I can help you with this a little bit. The changes to the signal are
going to be...let's just say that the developer is going to get taken
up on his offer and they are going to do it. They would mean that
he would pay for the design of the changes and he would come
up with the plans. He would hire a contractor and there would be
December 16, 2020
29834
a permit from MDOT to make those changes. It would be really
good if that coordinates with the opening of the restaurant. It will
be close I would hope, especially because the developer will be
able to control the schedule. I don't think that is going to be a big
issue. But it is going to be a permit from MDOT. There will be
some back and forth on plan review about what you are going to
do. Frank can hire a contractor that is approved by MDOT and
he is off and running. The MDOT permit will be inspected by
MDOT or maybe MDOT would ask Wayne County to do it, but I
doubt it. Did that help or make it worse?
Mr. Wilshaw: We appreciate the honesty.
Mr. Ventura: I would like to go back to Mark one more time. So, are you
comfortable as number 10 is written that it requires that this work
be done prior to the issuance of the Certificate of Occupancy?
Mr. Taormina: Yes. 1 am happy with that.
Mr. Ventura: Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw: It is kind of the question I thought I was hearing. Basically, who
is the final arbiter of who says yes all of these conditions have
been met and you can now open. It seems like it is the Building
Inspection Departments. Okay, again let's look for a motion.
On a motion by Caramagno, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it
was
#12-60-2020 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held
by the City Planning Commission on December 15, 2020, on
Petition 2020-11-02-10 submitted by LS Equity L.L.C. requesting
approval of all plans required by Sections 11.03(n)(3), 18.47 and
18.58 of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance No. 543, as
amended, in connection with a proposal to re -develop the
commercial shopping center (Shoppes of Livonia), including
demolishing a portion of the existing building, constructing a full -
service restaurant with drive-thru facilities (Chick-fil-A),
constructing an addition and renovating the exterior fagade of the
existing building, and constructing a multi -tenant retail building
with drive-thru facilities, at 29250-29350 Plymouth Road, located
on the north side of Plymouth Road between Haller Avenue and
Middlebelt Road in the Southwest % of Section 25, the Planning
Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that
Petition 2020-11-02-10 be approved subject to the following
conditions:
December 16, 2020
29835
That the Overall Site Plan identified as Sheet No. C01, dated
November 5, 2020, as revised, prepared by Atwell, is hereby
approved, and shall be adhered to.
2. That the Landscape an identified as Sheet No. C04, dated
November 5, 2020, as revised, prepared by Atwell, is hereby
approved, and shall be adhered to, except that a plan for
replacing the trees and other plant materials along the site's
frontage on Middlebelt Road shall be incorporated as part of
Phase 1 of the development and submitted to the Planning
Department for review and approval, and shall be completed
prior to occupancy of the Chick-fil-A restaurant.
That all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu of
hydroseeding.
4. That underground sprinklers are to be provided for all
landscaped and sodded areas and all planted materials
shall be installed to the satisfaction of the Inspection
Department and thereafter permanently maintained in a
healthy condition.
5. That the Exterior Elevations for the Chick-fil-A restaurant, as
received by the Planning Commission and date stamped
November 9, 2020, are hereby approved, and shall be
adhered to.
6. That the Retail 1 — Elevations Plan identified as Drawing No.
SD03, prepared by NORR, as received by the Planning
Commission and date stamped November 9, 2020, is
hereby approved, and shall be adhered to.
7. That the Retail 2 —Elevations Plan identified as Drawing No.
SD04, prepared by NORR, as received by the Planning
Commission and date stamped November 9, 2020, is
hereby approved, and shall be adhered to.
That all rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed
from public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a
compatible character, material, and color to other exterior
materials on the building.
That no less than six (6) weeks prior to the scheduled
opening of the Chick-fil-A restaurant, the Petitioner shall
submit to the Department of Public Safety Traffic Bureau for
its review and approval details of how traffic will be
managed, both on- and off -site, during the times when the
December 16, 2020
29836
stacking capacity of the drive-thru lanes is exceeded or
when undue traffic congestion is occurring on the adjacent
public thoroughfares.
10. That all traffic improvements, including additions or
modifications to the traffic signals, approach geometrics, or
traffic lanes, as deemed necessary by either Wayne County
or the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) to
mitigate the traffic impacts of the project, shall be completed
prior to the issuance of Certificate of Occupancy.
11. That the three walls of the trash dumpster areas shall be
constructed out of building materials that shall complement
that of the buildings. The enclosure gates shall be of solid
panel steel construction or durable, long-lasting solid panel
fiberglass.
12. That the proposed construction shall meet the Wayne
County Stormwater Ordinance, including detention
requirements, and the Petitioner shall secure all required
permits, including soil erosion and sedimentation control.
13. That all new pole -mounted light fixtures shall not exceed a
height of twenty feet (20') and shall be aimed and shielded
to minimize stray light trespassing across property lines and
glaring into adjacent roadways.
14. That this approval is subject to the petitioner being granted
a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals for deficient
parking and any conditions related thereto.
15. That any future drive-thru restaurant in Retail 1 shall require
waiver use approval.
16. That only conforming wall signage is approved with this
petition, and any additional signage shall be separately
submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of
Appeals.
17. That no LED light band or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows.
18. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for; and
December 16, 2020
29837
19. Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance 1*543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a
period of one (1) year only from the date of approval by City
Council, and unless a building permit is obtained, this
approval shall be null and void at the expiration of said
period.
FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution.
ITEM #2 PETITION 2020-11-08-07 Adams Park Development
Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2020-
11-08-07 submitted by Adams Park Development, L.L.C.
requesting approval of the Master Deed, Bylaws and site plan
pursuant to Section 18.62 of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance
#543, as amended, to develop a site condominium (Adams Park)
consisting of thirty-nine (39) single-family homes on the
properties at 14416 Harrison Avenue and 28201 Lyndon Avenue
(former Adams Elementary School site) located on the south side
of Lyndon Avenue between Inkster and Middlebelt Roads in the
Southeast'% of Section 24.
Mr. Taormina: This request involves the development of a condominium
subdivisionI The location is the site of the former Adams
Elementary School, which is at the southeast corner of Lyndon
and Harrison Avenues. This property is 11.83 acres in area. It
has 685 feet of frontage on Harrison and 785 feet of frontage on
Lyndon. Surrounding the site are single-family subdivisions to
the west and to the east. To the west is Compton Village and
Har-Lo Subdivisions. The zoning there is R-1. To the east is
Buckingham Village subdivision, also zoned R-1. To the north
across Lyndon is Bishop estates, which is a six unit attached
cluster housing development. Adjacent to that is Western Golf
estates, zoned R-2. To the south of this property is the John F.
Dooley park, which is zoned PL (Public Land). The subject
property is currently in the process of being rezoned from PI
(Public Land) to R-1 (One -family residential). City Council gave
first reading on the rezoning on November 4, 2020. Second
reading and Roll Call which are the final steps in the rezoning
process are on hold pending a review of the site plan. Under the
December 16, 2020
29838
R-1 zoning the minimum lot size is 7,250 square feet per lot. Lot
width minimum is 60 feet, and the depth is 120 feet. The site plan
shows a total of 39 condominium lots. Most of the lots, as you
can see here, are shown having frontage on two new streets that
redesigned in a U-shaped configuration. There is also a short
cul-de-sac which extends south from the road along the west side
of the development. Lots 11 through 39 would have access on
the internal street and lots one to ten would have direct frontage
on Harrison Ave, which borders the site along its west side. All
39 lots would meet or exceed the R-1 lot size requirements. In
fact, roughly half the lots in this development measure 70 feet in
width. There are three private open space areas . The largest is
in the southeast corner of the property and it includes a detention
pond, which is necessary for collecting and managing the sites
storm water runoff. This park measures about 47,600 square feet
or 1.1 acre. About 60% of the area would be devoted to the
detention basin. There are two separate access paths to the park
that would be available between lots 21 and 22. One is for the
pedestrians to access the upland portion of the site. The other is
a wider path that runs along the back of lots 22 through 26 that
would be used for access for maintenance equipment. The other
two open space areas are much smaller. One is in the southwest
corner of the site between lot 1 and Dooley Park. The other is a
narrow strip along Lyndon, which is adjacent to lot 39. That one
would be used for landscaping and placement of subdivision
signs. The other two areas which are not as obvious to see on
this plan, are located here in the southwest corner and then that
narrow strip that I mentioned for landscaping and monument sign
is located here. For all new plats and condominium subdivisions,
the city requires the dedication of public open space at a ratio of
720 square feet per lot, which for Adams Park would equal 28,
080 square feet. The combined area of the three open space
areas total 52,819 square feet, which is nearly double the
required land area. However, the petitioner is seeking approval
to waive the requirement of dedicating the open space in the form
of public parks and is instead proposing to assign these areas as
general common elements under the Master Deed of the
condominium subdivision. I am not going to go through the
details of the homes. Additional information was provided to the
Planning Commission which shows the design of the homes. I
will let the petitioner do that. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read
out the departmental correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please.
Mr. Taormina: The
first item is from the
Engineering
Division, dated
November
17,
2020, which reads
as follows:
"In accordance
with your
December 16, 2020
29839
request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above
referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed
project at this time. The properties associated with the project are
assigned the addresses of #28201 Lyndon Avenue and #14416
Harrison Avenue. The legal description included on the plans
submitted by the owner appears to be correct, and should be
used to describe the parcels. The proposed development is
currently serviced by public water main, storm and sanitary
sewers, and the submitted drawings indicate that new utility
connections will be constructed to service the proposed parcel
layout. Easements will need to be provided for the new water and
sanitary sewers, as well as portions of the storm sewer that are
to be maintained by the City. At this time, Exhibit `B" drawings
have not been provided to show proposed easements, so we
cannot determine if the proposed easements are correct. The
proposed construction will be required to meet the Wayne County
Stormwater Ordinance, including detention requirements.
Detention is shown on the preliminary plans, and a full review of
the proposed development will be completed when plans are
submitted for permitting. It should be noted that the proposed
outlet for the development is owned by Wayne County, and
therefore storm water permitting will be through the Wayne
County Department of Public Service. The submitted drawings
indicate that the proposed roadways are to be 27' wide, but the
current Engineering Department standards require roadways to
be 31' wide. Access to the detention pond and accessory
structures will need to be hardscaped (either sidewalk or pavers)
to be able to drive equipment on for any future maintenance, as
well as for residents to access the proposed open areas. The
submitted drawings do not indicate roadway names for any of the
proposed streets, but it should be noted that "Adams" will not be
allowed for any of the roadways in this development as that name
is already in use by roadways on the west side of the City. "The
letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer.
The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated
December 7, 2020, which reads as follows: "This office has
reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to
develop a site condominium (Adams Park) consisting of thirty-
nine (39) single-family homes on properties located at the above
referenced addresses. We have no objections to this proposal
with the following stipulations: 1. Any curves or corner of streets
shall accommodate emergency vehicles with a turning radius of
fifty-three feet wall to wall and an inside turning radius of twenty-
nine feet six inches. 2. Standard for residential cul-de-sacs is 50'
with a minimum right-of-way radius of 60' to provide for sidewalks
and utilities. " The letter is signed by Greg Thomas, Fire Marshal.
The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated November 23,
December 16, 2020
29840
2020, which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the plans in
connection with the petition. I have no objections to the proposal."
The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic
Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated
December 10, 2020, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your
request, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed. This
Department has no further objections to this petition." The letter
is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next
letter is from the Finance Department, dated November 20, 2020,
which reads as follows: 1 have reviewed the addresses connected
with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding
amounts receivable (general or water and sewer), I have no
objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie
Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the
Treasurer's Department, dated December 2, 2020, which reads
as follows: In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's
Office has reviewed the name and addresses connected with the
above noted petition. At this time there are taxes due, but they
are not delinquent, therefore I have no objections to the
proposal."The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That
is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Wilshaw: I will note that in our packet we do have a copy of the floorplan
elevations and some renderings with some examples which are
on the screen for us to see right now. We also have a copy of
the Master Deed and Bylaws for this development. Are there
any questions of the Planning Director? I don't see any. I will
ask If the petitioner here this evening. If so, please click raise
hand and we will recognize you and welcome you to our
meeting. We will need your name and address for the record
please.
Stuart Michaelson, 31333 W. 13 Mile Road, Farmington Hills, MI 48334 and
George Major.
Mr. Michaelson: It is a site plan that you have seen a few times. We did make
corrections and additions to it from our first meeting we had in
front of you. I don't know what else to say besides what Mark has
already relayed. It is 39 lots. You can see the site plan. We
increased the size of the width of many of the lots to 70 feet and
some were even wider than 70 feet. The minimum is 60. The
minimum depth is 120. We made many of them deeper than the
120. We have increased the depth of the lots that back up to
Lyons street. We are over 140 in those lots. That will leave
enough room for rear yard drainage. Plenty of rear yard drainage.
We think that will accommodate the people that live on Lyons and
have complaints of some issues with flooding. We will be able to
December 16, 2020
29841
handle any excess water from their lots. When the school was
there, they had parking and they had no place for the rainwater
to runoff, so I think we are solving their problem. We are very
excited about building these homes. We know there is a shortage
of lots in general in the whole area and the addition of this
community would be a big addition to the City of Livonia.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Michaelson. I think...just because we are used
to seeing these plans, but for the sake of anyone who is not used
to seeing these plans ... you are intending on having in the rear of
the lots, especially along the lots near Lyons there is going to be
a system of swales and catch basins that will collect water and
take it to the retention pond?
Mr. Michaelson: Correct. All of the storm water from our site ends up from the
sump pumps and the homes from the rear yard drainage and from
the street drainage, will end up in that detention. It then outlets
to the storm sewer. The purpose of the retention is that it slows
the volume of water into the storm, so it won't flood the system.
It will have a 100-year storm retention and it will store the water
first and then slowly outlet into the storm system.
Mr. Wilshaw: Alright. Very good. That is exactly what we are used to seeing.
Is there any questions for the petitioner from any of our
commissioners this evening? Going once, going twice... anyone
have any questions for our petitioner?
Mr. Caramagno: I know there was a question last time about front entry garages
and side entry garages and if it was already talked about, I
apologize. Where would the front entry or the side entry garages
be located on this map?
Mr. Michaelson: All of the lots are designed to be front entry because of the width.
That change was made in the Master Deed after the last meeting.
I believe it was you that caught that. Everything will be a front
now. There are corner lots, like for example 35,36, 22 that will be
side entry because a corner lot can accommodate the side entry.
The other lots will be front entry.
Mr. Caramagno: Okay, so
there are
a few that will be
side entry. That answers
that for me.
Let me
also ask you, the
detention pond on...l think
we talked about brick
pavers that
goes 3/ - '/ around the
detention
pond and
then a walkway with
a cul-de-sac on the end
there. Is
there any
reason that can't
go all the way around the
detention
pond as a
walking area?
December 16, 2020
29842
Mr. Michaelson: Actually, our plan was ... there is no reason, but our plan was to
have a little area there with a bench and even a pergola as a
sitting area for people to sit because we are going to enhance the
pond with a fountain. It is going to be an enhanced pond and it
is a good place for someone to walk out and sit and meet some
of their neighbors if they would like. That was a landscape
enhancement. The other one is going to be for service vehicles.
Every so often you have to have a service vehicle come in and
clean out the detention pond because it is going to be a grassy
type mat that will look nice but will be able to handle any
equipment that they have to use to get back there.
Mr. Caramagno:
I think you said that last time. I forgot. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Any other questions for our petitioner? Mr. Michaelson, who is
going to be responsible for cutting and maintaining the grass
around that pond area? Is that going to be the association?
Mr. Michaelson:
We are going to form an association and we will collect yearly
dues from each one of the homeowners. They are going to
handle all of the common areas, including the front where the
signage and landscaping will be and the maintenance of the open
space and the pond.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay, great. Any other questions on this petition from any of the
commissioners? If not, I am going to go to our audience and see
if anyone wishes to speak for or against this item? If so, please
click raise hand and we will give you an opportunity to speak. We
have Ms. Laura Franklin. You can unmute yourself.
Laura Franklin, Good evening everyone. I had questions concerning the retention
pond and also on the site plan. Where does it show the discharge
of the water? Which sewage line would the water be going in to?
Mr. Michaelson:
it isn't shown on the plan, but it is all underground. It ties into an
underground storm sewer.
As. Franklin:
Yes, but I need to know if it would be heading toward east of
Harrison which is next to my property or is there another storm
drain that would be utilized?
Mr. Michaelson:
Evan, are you on?
Mr. Wilshaw:
He is. Let me unmute him.
Mr. Michaelson:
Evan is our engineer. He can explain that better than I could.
December 16, 2020
29843
Mr. Wilshaw: Let me just make sure that we have decorum.
Mr. Michaelson: Just so you now, the outlet is on the west end of the...it is all
underground but it is on the west end of the pond.
Mr. Wilshaw: I just want to make sure we don't get into aback and forth
between the audience and the petitioner. We want to try to
maintain the questions through the commission and we will get
those questions answered. Mr. Priest, good evening. We will see
if you can answer those questions about the storm sewer system.
Evan Priest: If you go back to that sheet right there, the outlet is...you can see
on the east end of the pond there is a ... right there. That pipe is
going to connect to an underground pipe. It is an eight -foot
diameter pipe, and it is ... I want to say it is 12 feet underground.
It flows north to the Livonia Drain #2 which runs east under
Lyndon. Actually, it will go away from Harrison. The lots that face
Harrison will have a rear yard storm sewer which you can see on
this plan too. We are going to try and collect as much of that lot,
including the roof, as we can. Obviously, the driveway will run
out into Harrison. The rest of it we are going to collect and put
into that pond and put it underground in that eight -foot diameter
sewer, which for Ms. Franklins information, it is all separate from
your sanitary sewer if that is your concern. The city does have
some issues with things like that, maybe footing drains or
connected to sanitary sewers... that is not the case here. All of
the sump pumps will connect directly to the storm drain which will
be kept completely separate from the sanitary sewer area.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for that response, Mr. Priest. Ms. Franklin, hopefully
that addresses your question. Is there anything else you would
like to say?
Ms. Franklin: I'm just concerned because my property...there is access to not
just water but also sewage that goes right next to my property, so
that is why I need to know if the below of the site would mainly be
shifting toward where those outlets are at my property. I don't
have a sump pump in my basement, and I haven't had flooding
in my basement since I have been here for quite some years.
That is my concern in terms of how water is going to flow. It is all
around my property.
Mr. Wilshaw: For what it is worth, Ms. Franklin, each petition that comes before
us and this has been the case for a number of years because of
Wayne County's storm water management ordinance.
Developments such as this have to basically retain their water on
site that comes from storm water into these ponds and they need
December 16, 2020
29844
to slowly discharge it as a very controlled rate of release into
existing storm sewer systems like this large pipe that they are
referring to. It is not going to be discharged into anyone's yard or
into any open areas. It is going to go into a system, and it is going
to be done at a very controlled rate. It should not impact or cause
any additional flooding or water retain on any neighbors'
properties.
Ms. Franklin: Okay. I did have one more question. I think what the builder is
doing is phenomenal to bring value to the neighborhood, but I had
a question concerning a potential traffic challenge. Lyndon
street... there was a survey done in 2015 and it was on April 22.
They just did it for a 24-hour period. They noticed that there was
2,428 vehicles that went through. On April 23, 2,754 vehicles had
went through. This was back in 2015. With AADT, they said the
average is 2,480 vehicles going through over a 24-hour period.
My question is, the entrance that closest to Harrison currently,
where it is placed, that is the same place where the new buses
actually release students and have students on, at Harrison and
Lyndon street. Early in the morning, the congestion of traffic and
throughout the day, there is a lot of traffic on Lyndon street. Has
that been considered?
Mr. Wilshaw: This plan has been looked at by our Traffic Division of the Police
Department and they indicated that they had no concerns with
the traffic that would be caused by this development. The Police
Department will usually give us recommendations that you may
have heard on the previous petition if they think a no left turn sign
or right turn signs or any other traffic controls are necessary, they
will indicate that. That hasn't been noted in this case of the
development for essentially 30 something homes that are going
to be there.
Ms. Franklin: Okay, I do understand. I heard the letter that approved it but there
was no mention of what was going on with the buses that actually
stop. They stop on the north side and where they stope it is right
there where the driveway is.
Mr. Wilshaw: Right. It is possible if this property is developed as we see it here,
that the school system may have to review where they have the
bus stop and make some adjustments to ensure the safety of the
children that get on those buses.
Ms. Franklin; Thank you.
Or.
Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Franklin,
for attending this evening. We
will
see
if anyone else wishes to
speak for or against this item.
You
are
December 16, 2020
29845
welcome to click raise hand. I don't see anyone else doing that
so, we will go back to Mr. Michaelson. Is there any other
comments that you would like to make in regard to the petition
before us?
Mr. Michaelson: The only thing...) am hoping that you all agree that this will be a
great addition to the city. We have a good reputation in all of the
cities we have built in and around Livonia. We have actually built
in Livonia previously years ago. I think you will be happy with our
development with the way we deal with the city and the inspectors
and everybody involved. We think of ourselves as very
professional and we are looking forward to being approved and
being able to start hopefully before spring.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Michaelson. Any questions for our petitioner? If
not, a motion would be in order.
On a motion by Long, seconded by Ventura, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-61-2020 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to City Council that Petition 2020-11-08-07
submitted by Adams Park Development, L.L.C. requesting
approval of the Master Deed, Bylaws and site plan pursuant to
Section 18.62 of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended, to develop a site condominium (Adams Park)
consisting of thirty-nine (39) single-family homes on the
properties at 14416 Harrison Avenue and 28201 Lyndon Avenue
(former Adams Elementary School site) located on the south side
of Lyndon Avenue between Inkster and Middlebelt Roads in the
Southeast Y4 of Section 24, be approved, and the Public Open
Space requirement of the Subdivision Rules and Regulations is
hereby waived, subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Site Plan identified as Sheet 03, dated November
17, 2020, prepared by Michael L. Priest &Associates, Inc.,
is hereby approved and shall be adhered to.
2. That the issues as outlined in the correspondence dated
December 7, 2020, from the Fire Marshal shall be resolved
to the satisfaction of the Livonia Fire and Rescue Division.
3. That the Landscape Planting Plan identified as L-1 and the
Landscape Notes &Details identified as L-2, both dated
Novembers 19, 2020 as revised, prepared by Nagy Devlin
Land Design., are hereby approved and shall be adhered to.
December 16, 2020
29846
4. That streetlights and sidewalks shall be installed throughout
the development to the satisfaction of the Engineering
Department.
5. That the condominium Master Deed and Bylaws comply with
the requirements of the Subdivision Control Ordinance, Title
16, Chapter 16.04-16.40 of the Livonia Code of Ordinance,
and Article XX, Section 20.01-20.06 of Zoning Ordinance
#543.
That Section 6.7 Garages of the Bylaws shall be modified to
include front entries where applicable.
That the brick used in the construction of each condominium
unit shall be full face four -inch (4") brick.
8. In the event of a conflict between the provisions set forth in
the Master Deed and bylaws, and the requirements set forth
in the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance No. 543, as
amended, the Zoning Ordinance requirements shall prevail,
and petitioner shall comply with the Zoning Ordinance
requirements.
9. That the petitioner shall include language in the Master
Deed and bylaws or a separate recordable instrument
wherein the condominium association shall reimburse the
City of Livonia for any maintenance or repair costs incurred
for the storm water detention/retention and outlet facilities,
and giving the City of Livonia the right to impose liens on
each lot owner's property pro rata and place said charges
on their real estate tax bills in the event said charges are not
paid by the condominium association (or each lot owner)
within thirty (30) days of billing for the City of Livonia.
10. That all required cash deposits, certified checks, irrevocable
bank letters of credit and/or surety bonds which shall be
established by the City Engineer pursuant to Article XVIII of
Ordinance No. 543, Section 18.66 of the ordinance, shall be
deposited with the City prior to the issuance of engineering
permits for this site condominium development.
11. That only a conforming entrance marker is approved with
this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately
submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of
Appeals; and
December 16, 2020
29847
12. Pursuant
to Section 19.10
of Ordinance 4*543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of
Livonia, this approval is valid
for a
period of
one year only
from the date of approval by
City
Council,
and unless a
building permit is obtained,
this
approval
shall be null and void at the expiration of
said
period.
Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution.
ITEM #6 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,162nd Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting
Or. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of
the Minutes of the 1,162nd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting
held on November 10, 2020.
On a motion by Smiley, seconded by McCue ,and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-62-2020 RESOLVED, That the Minutes of 1,162ndtn Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on November
10, 2020, are hereby approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Long, McCue, Smiley, Ventura, Bongero,
Caramagno, Wilshaw
NAYS: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,1631d Public
Hearings and Regular Meeting held on December 15, 2020, was adjourned at 9:33
p.m.
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
��rf aw I I v '" 1
Sam Caramagno, Secrdtary
i
ATTEST:
Ian Wilshaw, Chairman