HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 1992-10-13 12339
MINUTES OF THE 651st REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF
LIVONIA
On Tuesday, October 13, 1992, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia
held its 651st Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive,
Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. Jack Engebretson, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
Members present: Gniewek, LaPine, Alanskas, Fandrei*, Engebretson, Tent, McCann,
Morrow
Members absent: None
Messrs. John J. Nagy, Planning Director; Ralph H. Bakewell, Planner IV, and Scott
Miller, Planning Technician, were also present.
Mr. Engebretson informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission only makes a recommendation to the
City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and decide the
question. If a petition involves a waiver of use request and the request is
denied, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision to the City
Council; otherwise the petition is terminated. The Planning Commission holds the
only public hearing on a preliminary plat and/or a vacating petition. Planning
Commission resolutions become effective seven days after the resolutions are
adopted. The Planning Commission has reviewed the petitions upon their filing and
have been furnished by the staff with approving and denying resolutions. The
Commission may use them or not use them depending upon the outcome of the hearing
tonight.
Mr. McCann, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is Sign Permit
Application by Burns Sign Company, on behalf of Pritchard Heating and
Cooling, requesting approval for one awning type wall sign on the
building located at 33636 Five Mile Road in Section 16.
Mr. Miller: This location has two separate buildings that abut each other.
There is going to be one continuous awning with both businesses'
signage on it. Because they are separate businesses, each business
is allowed one wall sign so they will be heard as separate items.
The first item is Pritchard Heating and Cooling. The frontage of
their building is 20 square feet and the square footage of the sign
works out to be exactly 20 square feet total sign area. So they
are within the sign ordinance.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Nagy, do we have any correspondence or comments regarding
this petition?
Mr. Nagy: We have no correspondence in connection with this matter.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here?
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John LaCroix: I am with Burns Sign Company. As Mr. Miller stated it is a 20 foot
awning, 4 feet 6 inches tall with a 30 inch projection. It is a
vinyl material with deep burgundy color and the lettering
"Pritchard" will be sewn in with a white vinyl and the oval
underneath will also be sewn in with black vinyl lettering. It
will have one row of lights to internally illuminate it. The
framework is all aluminum. Suspended under that would be an egg
crate material, which diffuses light evenly. It will enhance the
building with a light and give it a finished look. It is two
separate businesses with two separate owners and each section of
awning will have an end. Each awning will have a left and a right
end so if one of the businesses moved out and we would have to
remove an awning, the other awning would still have a finished
appearance. Do you have any questions?
Mr. Gniewek: What are the hours of operation?
Mr. LaCroix: I did talk to Mr. Crane who owns Pritchard and he does have a time
clock mechanism already installed and as long as the hours are
within reason, he has no problem as far as having it illuminated
for instance like six in the evening until eleven or twelve or
whatever you would like it to be. As long as it is not from six
until seven thirty at night.
Mr. Gniewek: You were supposed to tell us what time.
Mr. LaCroix: At the last meeting I mentioned the norm would be five o'clock in
the winter hours until twelve or one o'clock. It would be the
customer's preference.
`. Mr. Gniewek: Twelve or one?
Mr. LaCroix: Again, it would depend on the business. We could say twelve
o'clock.
Mr. Tent: Five to twelve. Is that midnight?
Mr. LaCroix: Yes midnight and in the summertime it gets dark around nine
o'clock.
Mr. Tent: What time does the business close?
Mr. LaCroix: I believe five or six o'clock in the evening.
Mr. Tent: What would be the purpose of continuing the lights until midnight?
Mr. LaCroix: It is on a norm for commercial frontages and what have you. That
is the normal operation as far as people leaving signs on.
Mr. Tent: John, I forget now. What is the normal lighting time for
businesses in the City because we have approved a lot of them and
there have been conditions.
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Mr. Nagy: We tried to survey the businesses and see if there was a norm but
with our limited time and limited investigation, they do vary quite
a bit. The hours the sign is lit normally coincides with the
actual hours that the company is open.
Mr. Tent: Isn't midnight kind of excessive for a building that closes at six
o'clock?
Mr. Nagy: True, that is not the normal business hours. That extends beyond
their normal business hours.
Mr. Tent: I know in the past we would get objections from the neighbors
wanting to know how late the signs will be lit in their
neighborhoods. In this particular case, though there aren't that
many homes around there, to continue that until midnight seems kind
of excessive. I am looking at around ten o'clock but not midnight.
Mr. Engebretson: Or an hour or two past closing.
Mr. Tent: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: Sir, you have told us what the norm is in real vague terms. That
is not what we asked you to come here with tonight. We asked you
to contact your clients and ask them what their interests were and
you have responded not in terms of what their wishes were but in
terms of what the norm is.
Mr. LaCroix: Actually he went along with whatever you may deem as the proper
hours. He did mention that 10:00 or 10:30, he would have no
fir• problem with. This boulevard, it is just really another accent in
the evening to give it some light and aesthetically give it a
little more zip to help light the sidewalk areas and what have you.
He will not have a problem with it going off at ten o'clock.
Mr. Engebretson: You also were going to supply us with a picture of what that
awning would look like in the evening to demonstrate the effect of
that 20% bleed-through that you mentioned last time.
Mr. LaCroix: Unfortunately I had a mishap last week on Wednesday. At 1:30 in
the morning I was at St. Mary's and it kind of goofed up my whole
week. I did call Mr. Miller, I believe Friday morning. As far as
the awning, it gives it the same coloration as I think Farwell &
Friends on Middlebelt.
Mr. Engebretson: See the problem is you were asked to get that here last week so
we could go and check that out. Finding that out tonight is a bit
late unless we were to table this and act on it the next meeting.
You indicated you have one. If you have one in Livonia that is all
you need. We don't need a list.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Gniewek, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously
approved, it was
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#10-482-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the
City Council that Sign Permit Application by Burns Sign Company, on
behalf of Pritchard Heating and Cooling, requesting approval for one
awning type wall sign on the building located at 33636 Five Mile Road in
`. Section 16, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the sign plan drawing number P-10 dated June 92' prepared by Burns
Sign Company, submitted on behalf of Pritchard Heating & Air
Conditioning at 33636 Five Mile Road, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to.
2) That the awning shall only be back-lit between the hours of dark
until 10:30 p.m.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
Mr. McCann, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Sign Permit
Application by Burns Sign Company, on behalf of The Detroit Band Saw
Works, requesting approval for one awning type wall sign on the building
located at 33632 Five Mile Road in Section 16.
Mr. Miller: This is the same awning with similar circumstances of adjoining
buildings. The Detroit Band Saw Works signage has 20 lineal feet
of frontage of building and the sign works out to 20 square feet of
total sign area, which is what they are permitted under the sign
ordinance.
Mr. LaCroix: Same type of awning.
Mr. Engebretson: Give me that address on Middlebelt again because I really want to
go through that and I want to have an opportunity to do that before
these minutes are approved to give us the opportunity to withdraw
this approval in case it turns out to be something other than what
you describe it to be.
Mr. LaCroix: It is north of Ann Arbor Trail on the west side of Middlebelt. You
can't miss it. It is about three businesses. That is in Westland.
Generally awnings, you have the yellow ones, the blatantly bright
ones, where the point is this color is the dullest.
Mr. Engebretson: I just want to visit it.
Mr. Alanskas: Where the two are going to abut in the middle, will there be a
separation or are they flush?
Mr. LaCroix: They will be flush.
Mr. Alanskas: You won't have water leaking down the middle?
Mr. LaCroix: No they are silicone across the top.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Gniewek, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously
approved, it was
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#10-483-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the
City Council that Sign Permit Application by Burns Sign Company, on
behalf of The Detroit Band Saw Works, requesting approval for one awning
type wall sign on the building located at 33632 Five Mile Road in
Section 16, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the sign plan drawing number D-3 dated Sept. 92' prepared by Burns
Sign Company, submitted on behalf of The Detroit Band Saw Works at
33632 Five Mile Road, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to.
2) That the awning shall only be back-lit between the hours of dark
until 10:30 p.m.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
*Mrs. Fandrei entered the meeting at this time.
Mr. McCann announced the next item on the agenda is Sign Permit Application by
Beacon Sign Company, on behalf of Michigan National Bank, requesting
approval for one wall sign on the building located at 30055 Plymouth
Road in Section 35.
Mr. Miller: This bank is located in the Wonderland Shopping Center. It is in
front of the Target Store, next to White Castle. The bank is
requesting one wall sign to be on the frontage of the building,
which will face Plymouth Road. They are allowed 38 square feet of
sign area and they are asking for 21 square feet so they are below
what they are allowed so they are in compliance with the sign
ordinance.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here?
Don Valente: I am with Michigan National Bank. The address is 30600 West Eight
Mile, Farmington. What the bank is trying to do is update the
image of the bank. The building itself is under renovation. We
are trying to blend the building with the mall. In doing so we
would like to update the signage. The last two signs that were on
there, there was one on both north and east elevation. Both of
them were box signs. This one here I think will work better with
the mall. The actual "Michigan National Bank" is back-lit letters
so it is a lot softer. The little red part identifies the fact
there is an ATM there, which tells people 24 hours a day their
money is available.
Mr. Alanskas: In regard to lighting and hours, how long did you want this sign to
be on?
Mr. Valente: That sign would be lit 24 hours. It would be on a photo-cell. The
main reason for that is so customers can utilize the ATM on a
24-hour basis.
Mr. Engebretson: What was your reference to the photo-cell?
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Mr. Valente: Photo-cell is what controls the light.
Mr. Engebretson: If it is on 24 hours?
Mr. Valente: I'm sorry. It is only on when it is dark.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mr. Tent and unanimously approved,
it was
#10-484-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the
City Council that the Sign Permit Application by Beacon Sign Company, on
behalf of Michigan National Bank, requesting approval for one wall sign
on the building located at 30055 Plymouth Road in Section 31, be
approved subject to the following condition:
1) That the sign plan sheet 1 dated June 10/01/92 prepared by Fairmont
Sign Company, submitted on behalf of Michigan National Bank at
30055 Plymouth Road, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent, seconded by Mr. Gniewek and unanimously
approved, it was
#10-485-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
waive the provisions of Section 10 of Article VI of the Planning
Commission Rules of Procedure requesting the seven day period
�. concerning effectiveness of Planning Commission resolutions in
connection with the Sign Permit Application by Beacon Sign Company,
on behalf of Michigan National Bank, requesting approval for one
wall sign on the building located at 30055 Plymouth Road in Section
35.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
Mr. McCann, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Permit Application
by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Salvador Cid, for the installation
of a satellite disc antenna on property located at 29215 Lori Street in
Section 24.
Mr. Miller: This is located in the northwest quarter of Section 24. The
petitioner is asking to put the satellite dish in the rear yard
abutting against the house. It will be on a 13 foot high pole and
it will be a 10 foot diameter satellite dish so the total height
will be 17 1/2 feet. Because of the mature trees that surround the
property, the installer has said that this would be the only
location that it could possibly be. They have also submitted
letters that the surrounding neighbors have no objection to the
satellite dish.
Mr. Engebretson: Who signed these letters?
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Gus Semaan: The neighbor right behind Mr. Cid's house, the two neighbors on
both sides of him and the three neighbors across the street from
Lori Lane. Also I marked their respective locations on the very
back sheet of those applications. I must have spent two hours out
there looking for some way to do it but it is totally concealed
4111. pretty much in the backyard. We are going to do, I think, an
excellent job of retaining the height over the pitch of the roof to
where it is going to be very, very minimal as far as what it will
exceed above the pitch of the roof. It may be seen slightly from
street view off Lori Lane. Other than that it should have no major
impact as far as aesthetics. Also, they say they cannot receive
any Spanish or Mexican programming through their cable company.
His wife is unable to get around so she will take advantage of the
programming that is offered only through the satellite system.
Mr. Alanskas: Gus, were you aware that Mr. Cid wants to cut down that big tree in
the middle of the backyard?
Mr. Semaan: He told me he was going to top it.
Mr. Alanskas: I talked to him two days ago and he said he wants to cut it down
about four feet above the ground and possibly even take it out
completely.
Mr. Semaan: We didn't need the whole tree removed because it's not going to
affect us.
Mr. Alanskas: If you do that, you are really going to expose the back of the area
with that tree coming down. I am not even very comfortable with
the tree being there because you are going to have about three feet
exposing the top of the dish above the front of the home.
Mr. Semaan: About a two or three foot area.
Mr. Alanskas: If you take a walk across the street, there are more than three
homes that can see this dish. I would say it is closer to four or
five. You can really see it walking towards Middlebelt if it is
three feet above the rooftop.
Mr. Semaan: I felt like the number of people he went out to talk to in his
broken English as far as communicating this to them, was plenty. A
couple more people down the road from both sides of them, are those
the signatures you are requiring perhaps?
Mr. Alanskas: What makes it very difficult is even if you do have the signatures,
maybe six months from now or a year from now they may move and then
you may have new neighbors that say "I don't want to look at that
dish". It is a tough call.
Mr. Semaan: I would agree with you to a certain degree. If I can put my input
in on this here. The three feet of the top of the satellite dish,
if someone was to look for it to the angles of the front yard, I
suppose they could pick it out but it is not going to be standing
out like some other people's dishes have in the past. I am asking
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that you go a little lightly on the fact that some of it will be
showing over the top. I was very honest with you in telling you
that because that is exactly what is going to be in place. I don't
see that if someone new moves to the area, I don't see that as
them saying we don't like the dish, we're not moving into the area.
The biggest status symbol in Hollywood right now is satellite T.V.
dishes and these are millionaires that have these.
Mr. Alanskas: Do you need that tree down for better reception?
Mr. Semaan: That site was the best site we found. That tree, to answer your
question, would need to come down a third off the top.
Mrs. Fandrei: Gus, we previously had a petition where the petitioner had one of
these umbrella type dishes. How would that fit into this plan?
Rather than taking the tree down as much as you are saying.
Mr. Semaan: The umbrella is practical when it is on the ground. Not a lot of
people put patio umbrellas on top of tall poles.
Mrs. Fandrei: What I am wondering is rather than cutting the tree down part way,
why not cut it down all the way and use the umbrella?
Mr. Semaan: The biggest problem we have here is that out of 19 satellites in
a 80 degree tracking angle, if you look at the backyard the western
side you would be surprised that it is going to get any pictures
that is how buried with trees it is to the west. Due south is that
tree in the backyard and to the east is where we really open up
with a clear shot. The programming he is after is located in the
west and almost due south so even if we took that tree down and put
it in the yard he is not going to get 50% of his programming. They
have watched it for years and years in the past and now they have
lost it and they would like to get it back.
Mr. Morrow: If one-third of the tree is going to come down, what is going to
happen to the tree?
Mr. Semaan: We are going to need a third of the top removed.
Mr. Morrow: That is all that is going to be removed. Two-thirds of the tree
will remain?
Mr. Semaan: His attitude is whatever we have to do we will do it to take care
of the job so if you would like to put a stipulation on us not to
take more than a third of the tree down, it doesn't have to come
down below the horizontal view of the dish.
Mr. Morrow: The reason I ask, and I think Mr. Alanskas pointed out, the tree
might be coming down and then we are hearing you will just have to
top one-third. I am just trying to get a handle on what the
petitioner's intentions are.
Mr. Semaan: We would like to pin that down tonight.
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Mr. Morrow: I would like to ask one of our landscape architects on duty here
tonight, what happens to the tree if we just take a third off?
Does that make it a viable tree?
Mr. Nagy: A tree can survive with one-third of its growth removed. It is
just whether it will be an aesthetically pleasing tree after they
crop off one-third and I think that is really where we are coming
from. Is it going to look mutuliated or is it going to look like
it is still a good proportioned tree and I think maybe we could
build some language in the resolution.
Mr. Morrow: I guess what I am thinking of is we want to be aesthetically
pleasing but I am thinking of the screening qualities to his
neighbors to the rear with whatever is left.
Mr. Semaan: It will be professionally done.
Mr. Engebretson: Gus, I think the point we are discussing here is of concern to me
for several reasons. I think the neighbor to the rear may have
agreed to this proposal based on the fact that tree is going to
screen what some people view to be an eyesore or blight or
whatever, whether it is or isn't I'm not saying, but when we talked
to Mr. Cid several days ago it was pretty clear in our minds
because he showed us where he intended to cut that tree down to and
it left a four or five foot stump there that he could then handle
himself. We discussed the difficulty of removing a tree of that
size. We want, from the standpoint of being cooperative with our
neighbors and fellow citizens, we really want to do that and I
think we have worked well with you in the past and resolved those
kinds of issues but I am not so sure this one is quite so simple.
I think the problem is compounded by the fact that if and when that
tree is removed, then the dish is going to be even more visible
from the vantage point across the street because I think with the
tree there, it is my opinion, it would almost blend in with the
tree, at least most of the year even if it did protrude two or
three feet above the pitch of the roof. With that tree out of
there I think the people on both sides of the street get an
entirely different view. I don't know what the solution is, if
topping off the tree leaves a worse eyesore with an oddly mutilated
tree. I don't know how to envision that but I think if the tree is
gone it has a significant impact on how much of an aesthetic impact
this proposal has on that neighborhood.
Mr. Semaan: Again we want to hire a professional to do a good job trimming it
and you can make that a part of your stipulation on approving this.
I have exhausted a lot of time over there working on this. He is
even giving up some signal clarity and quality because of the mass
of trees that will be in his way over to the west and surrounding
the house. As far as the neighbors go they may see it further
down. With all due respect to them and your opinion about that, I
think the signatures of the neighbors we have gotten is enough and
the fact that the neighbors aprove or not approve might help you
make your decision but should not be a binding thing as far as
going with more neighbors and more signatures.
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Mr. McCann: Gus, we talked last week, was it this gentleman's wife that you
said she didn't speak much English?
Mr. Semaan: She does speak English but she is obviously Mexican and is
handicapped and in a wheelchair. She does not have any feet and it
is very hard for her to get around and get out of the house. She
would find a great deal of pleasure of sitting down and watching
movies and programs in her language which she hasn't been able to
do since the cable company pulled the Spanish programming. There
is a hardship there and it is very important to her and it was
stressed to me that way.
Mr. LaPine: Due to the fact that the main reason she wants this is because she
wants to pick up the ethnic programming, which I assume comes from
Mexico. Is that correct?
Mr. Semaan: Some of it does.
Mr. LaPine: You can't pick up that signal with a seven foot dish instead of a
ten foot dish?
Mr. Semaan: That is an excellent question. If we could, I would really do it
and we tried and it is very hard to do. The signal is so weak that
we can barely retain anything that is pleasantly watchable or worth
the investment.
Mr. Engebretson: Gus, I really don't want to belabor the point of that tree. We
have every reason in the world to believe that you are a honorable
business person and that you don't make casual representations of
what you will or won't do so I take you at your word at that. I
will simply tell you that we do have reason to be cautious in
granting approvals where stipulations like that exist and I will
just tell you that while we can't hold you accountable for it, we
had a situation recently where a large stand of trees was to be
preserved in a major construction venture and someone out there
with a chain saw cut every last one of them down. Some of them had
to come down to provide space for the footprint of the building and
the parking lot and the planned landscaping, etc. but every single
tree on the site came down. Just be aware there is some reason to
be cautious. We are not picking on you or your client.
Mr. McCann: Gus, the tree in the back. How high off the ground in the backyard
is your satellite looking? You are going up 18 feet total so how
many feet off the ground behind you do you need clear?
Mr. Semaan: To the top ridge of the dish. So if the top of the dish is at 18
feet, the top of the tree would be up to 18 or 19 feet. It could
actually go to 20 feet without any problem.
Mr. McCann: So if we put he can't trim it lower than 15 feet, it shouldn't be a
problem for him?
Mr. Semaan: It would be more than ample.
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On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann and seconded by Mr. Morrow, it was
RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Permit
Application by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Salvador Cid, for the
,` installation of a satellite disc antenna on property located at 29215
Lori Street in Section 24, subject to the following conditions:
1) That the site plan and specifications dated 9/22/92 submitted by
Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Salvador Cid for a satellite disc
antenna at 29215 Lori Street, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to.
2) That the tree in the rear behind the satllite disc shall not be
trimmed lower than 15 feet.
3) That the satellite disc shall be removed when the petitioner
vacates the premises.
for the following reasons:
1) That the applicant has shown hardship due to the fact that a family
member is unable to leave the home and desires certain ethnic
programming not presently available on cable or regular television.
2) That the proposed disc antenna location is the only available position
on the property where a satellite signal can be received.
3) That the proposed satellite antenna location is such that it will have
no detrimental aesthetic impact on the neighboring properties.
Mr. Tent: I am going to vote against this approval and I have four specific
reasons but I wanted to tell Gus one thing which he mentioned and I
certainly didn't appreciate that fact. We do, on this Commission,
want to hear from the neighbors surrounding the property and you
indicated that these letters are insignificant and shouldn't be
considered as part of the approval or rejection system. That is
wrong. In other words, we ask that all the neighbors be contacted
to be certain that they are in accord with what is going on. That
is very important. I want you to always remember that. You will
probably be here a lot. You bring in these letters because they
are important and they have to surround the entire area. To me
that is significant. The reason I am voting against this proposal
is that we do have cable TV, which is available in the general
area. We have gone to great lengths to get cable television here
in the City and they have all kinds of programming that is
available and keep adding to it. Number two is the fact that we
took great care in putting underground utility systems in
neighborhoods to get rid of all the tall telephone poles, etc. to
make a nice, clean, smooth neighborhood. If we keep approving all
these satellites that come before us for various reasons, we are
going to be like a lost planet. We will have satellites all over.
One of the Commissioners mentioned the fact that we now have one of
these umbrella type antennas. I think those are great. They are
attractive. They can pick up signals and they don't distract from
the neighborhood. To me I would like to have people come in with
this type of satellite arrangement. The third item is on hardship
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cases. When they are demonstrated as hardship cases we have a ZBA
process to go through. In other words, I as one Commissioner on
the Planning Commission look at it from an aesthetic standpoint. I
feel that people should have satellites if it is compatible to
where they are, if they can be screened, etc. because I have voted
"%or in favor of some of those but to me, I feel that by putting in
these satellites just because people want to watch soccer games or
Suma wrestling or something like that, we are going to have to
compromise our feelings towards approving a satellite dish and to
me when they affect the values of the property and it is a blight
and has nothing to do with the system itself but it affects the
aesthetic quality and beauty of the neighborhood I am against it.
That is why I am voting against it.
Mrs. Fandrei: To the maker of the motion, I was wondering why you specified 15
feet when the professional here, Gus, said that 20 feet would still
work?
Mr. McCann: That is what Mr. Nagy said that when you trim a tree down like
that it will grow at a very rapid rate. If you cut it down to 20
feet and it grows to 22 or 23 feet, it is going to be interfering
already. He is going to be trimming it every six months. This way
he can trim it every other year or so and it would allow some
growth.
Mrs. Fandrei: You are just giving him a little extra leeway there?
Mr. McCann: Yes.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
�lrn
AYES: Gniewek, Morrow, McCann, Engebretson
NAYS: Tent, Fandrei, LaPine, Alanskas
ABSENT: None
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion failed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Tent and seconded by Mrs. Fandrei, it was
RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby deny Permit
Application by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Salvador Cid, for the
installation of a satellite disc antenna on property located at 29215
Lori Street in Section 24 for the following reason:
1) That due to its size and location, this disc antenna would be
detrimental to the aesthetic quality and beauty of the neighborhood by
presenting a visual blight that could jeopardize the property values in
the area as set forth in the comprehensive plan of the Zoning
Ordinance.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Tent, Fandrei, LaPine, Alanskas
NAYS: Gniewek, Morrow, McCann, Engebretson
ABSENT: None
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion failed.
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On a motion duly made by Mr. Gniewek, seconded by Mr. McCann and unanimously
approved, it was
##10-486-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
table the Permit Application by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of
Salvador Cid, for the installation of a satellite disc antenna on
property located at 29215 Lori Street in Section 24 until such time as
letters may be obtained from neighbors within view of the satellite dish
stating they have no objections to the satellite dish being installed
and also acknowledging the fact they are aware the tree in the backyard
is going to be topped and to what height.
Mr. Engebretson: I would like to ask Gus to prepare the format to advise the
neighbors that tree will be topped and the dish will be visible to
the extent of about three feet above the roof line. I think you
have already done that. If you have shown the drawing to the
neighbors then you have already done that. If you could verbalize
that in your new proposal to the neighbors, I am sure we can sort
it all out.
Mr. LaPine: Gus, when you go around and get the signatures of the neighbors,
are they told it is a 10 foot diameter dish?
Mr. Semaan: I do not go out to the neighbors myself. On occasion I have. I
think it is the petitioner's responsibility to talk to the
neighbors not mine. I asked Mr. Cid to go out and talk to his
neighbors because they are his neighbors and the customers will
always do that.
+` Mr. LaPine: The problem I have with the letters, and that is one reason I voted
against it, is the fact it doesn't really tell you much, it just
asks can I have a satellite dish. Some people might think it is
two foot in diameter, a foot in diameter, etc. Ten feet,
especially when you are in a subdivision, is right in your
backyard. I voted for some of these and I have voted against some
of them. That is one of the reasons I voted against this one
tonight. I have no problem with the topping of the tree as long as
the neighbors know that tree is being topped that much because they
are going to see a lot more of this than they originally thought
they were.
Mrs. Fandrei: Perhaps, Gus, the form letter could mention the size and height. I
think it is going to have to in this case. I think they should see
the diagram plus the verbage in the letter. You have to be more
explicit on this one.
Mr. Semaan: If you have an idea of what you would like to say, if you could
document it for me and I would run with that. What I may write
down might not be what you want to say.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Nagy has just indicated that he would take care of that. I
think you have a good fighting chance but at the moment we have a
stalemate until we have that clarification.
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Mr. Semaan: Mr. Tent, I had no intention on coming across to you or anybody on
the board this way. When I come up here, I am a little more
relaxed now, but I am never really relaxed when I come up to this
podium so what I meant to say and the way it came out are two
`�► different things.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
Mr. McCann, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Permit Application
by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Anthony Catalfio, for the
installation of a satellite disc antenna on property located at 19514
Norwich Road in Section 4.
Mr. Miller: The petitioner is requesting a satellite disc to be put in the
backyard abutting his house between the house and an enclosed
patio. The patio will block part of the view from the north lot
line. There are trees in the back and the satellite dish will be 7
feet in diameter. The total height will be approximately 14 feet
high. Because of the trees that surround this property the
installer has said that this is the only possible location for this
dish.
Mr. LaPine: Due to the fact that I live in this subdivision, I will not vote on
this one or get into any of the discussion.
Mr. Semaan: Again, we exhausted our efforts here as far as finding a ground
location for it. Mr. Catalfio does not want to cut any trees out
of his backyard specifically one that would hinder our view angle
so the best possible place that it could go is, as stated by Scott,
roughly 14 feet to the top of the dish, which will give us a clear
site. This should not and will not be visible from street view
because we are going with a satellite dish that is 50% smaller than
the 10 footer, which is a 7 foot dish. By downsizing the size of
the dish, we are going to be close to the porch. It can be seen to
some degree by some of the neighbors and we did get signatures of
six neighbors that we felt could see the dish from their respective
locations. Therefore, we are requesting that you approve this.
Again, we went out of way to downsize the dish and went with some
other measures that we felt would be appropriate.
Mr. Alanskas: Are you referring to the neighbors in the back of the home that
would be seeing this dish?
Mr. Semaan: Exactly, the back side and rear side. We had a picture drawn when
we turned in the paper work last week of which homes we got
signatures from in respect to where the dish was going to be.
Again, Mr. Catalfio went to talk to his neighbors and they had no
objections.
Mr. Alanskas: I am satisfied from the front because it will not be seen but from
the rear it will be very visible to the back neighbors.
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Mr. Semaan: There is another drawing. There is a fairly large tree that sits
to the northeast and one due south, which are rather high and the
one that sits northeast of the dish almost blocks the entire view
from that neighbor, who also signed a letter.
`r.
Mr. Alanskas: Plus it is only a 7 foot dish and it is a lot lower. I find that
much more appeasing than what we had before.
Mrs. Fandrei: Gus, the neighbors that signed these, do they know the size and
location?
Mr. Catalfio: Yes, they all do.
Mrs. Fandrei: Is the color going to be changed? We talked about that before.
Mr. Semaan: Yes we did. I didn't know what your stand was on that.
Mr. Catalfio: After a couple of years it is going to rust and then it will look
worse than it would if we just left it. I think it would be
transparent enough. You can't see it against the back of the house
anyways.
Mr. Engebretson: What color was it?
Mr. Catalfio: Brown.
Mrs. Fandrei: We were talking about painting it brown to blend more with the
house rather than having black, which would stand out.
Mr. Catalfio: Is that something that is important to you?
Mrs. Fandrei: Yes because as has been mentioned many times, the people that
signed these petitions aren't going to be there forever. We all
know that within a certain reasonable time these people are going
to start moving. That is just the way it is and because these
people signed letters, that doesn't mean that the next ones aren't
going to be objecting to it and if it blends in a little better,
then there is less objection.
Mr. Semaan: I find that when you paint them other than the black that they come
in or gray sometimes, gray tends to be a little easier to take, but
I find when they paint them to blend with the scenery they stand
out more than when you just leave them as it. A perfect case is a
dish painted green on Eight Mile Road at a hotel among all these
evergreens and it looks like a big dish painted green and I don't
find it to be that appealing but if the board finds it appealing
and it is going to help us out tonight and get us approval then
that is something we can do.
Mr. Tent: Gus, if I remember correctly, we discussed these satellite dishes.
Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't it you that brought up a booklet
that showed these satellites come in all colors. You can get them
red, green, purple, yellow and they are impregnated as part of the
satellite dish and therefore that should be no problem. In this
'rr.�
12354
case where we are talking about physically painting it with a
brush, maybe that is wrong but how about the manufacturer, which
was stated at that time, that they bring them out in these colors
that are part of the structure.
Mr. Semaan: I think at one time a paint company did go crazy and do something
like that and at one time they did offer that. Right now the
closest we get to colors is if you buy these covers that go over
the dish, which changes the classification. Most companies are
strictly black, white, beige or gray.
Mr. Tent: So what you were saying at that time never materialized as far as
picking them out in your choice of colors?
Mr. Semaan: No there were companies offering that at the time. What they were
doing was basically buying the dishes, painting them and then
selling them. You could order the color you wanted. If brown will
help to hide this dish and you feel it will, then brown it is and
we will match the exact color of the house.
Mr. Tent: I have another question. I am sorry I missed the study meeting.
It was indicated here that when the property was sold the disc
would be removed. How can that be? In other words if the people
that bought that house said I want that disc to be part of my sale,
could you insist it has to go? How can we protect that? The other
question I had why is there a hardship because someone wants to
watch a soccer game? What if we had people that came up here and
wanted to watch the Suma wrestlers? In other words, I can
visualize anyone coming in this City and they are all going to have
some specific hardship because they are going to say I need this
because of that.
Mr. Semaan: I didn't say it was a hardship about this case. It is not a
hardship. It is strictly an entertainment choice.
Mr. Engebretson: I don't recall any discussion but I do see it here Ray. The
reason I am sharing that with you is that it would be news to Gus
any reference to any hardship because it was not brought up at the
study meeting.
Mr. Semaan: There is no hardship there even though it is to some people not to
watch the Lions games when they are blacked out,because cable
blacks them out.
Mr. Tent: My speech on the first one still prevails because we have cable and
we try to put everything underground, etc.
Mr. Engebretson: Gus, I am a bit confused regarding the issue of paint. You have
made reference to that Hampton Inn on Eight Mile Road where the
green seems to stand out among the green evergreens and then you
also mention they come in white, gray and black and you picked the
one that is the least problem based on whatever the backdrop is. I
think you are saying that while there is no perfect solution that
there is an impact on what the backdrop is and what the color is.
12355
Mr. Semaan: There may be some and again it is a matter of personal choice more
or less because they are perforated and you can see right through
it and people are used to and have seen black and gray dishes.
They have not seen brown dishes, red dishes or yellow dishes. That
'rte right there is an advantage. The other thing the dishes we use are
very high quality. They are a powder coated paint. They are
aluminum. They resist rusting. If we have to paint this dish,
which we will paint it if we have to, that means there has to be
regular upkeep on it so the paint doesn't peel.
Mr. Engebretson: Earlier we heard an objection to painting based on the fact that
would cause the dish to rust. I don't think you really meant that.
Mr. Semaan: No it would peel. It probably would peel unless we took it to a
professional baking shop and have it completely rebaked and that
would be excessive cost.
Mr. Engebretson: We paint our trim on our houses too.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas and seconded by Mr. Gniewek, it was
#10-487-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Permit
Application by Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Anthony Catalfio, for
the installation of a satellite disc antenna on property located at
19514 Norwich Road in Section 4 subject to the following conditions:
1) That the site plan and specifications dated 9/22/92 submitted by
Advanced Satellite, on behalf of Anthony Catalfio for a satellite
disc antenna at 19514 Norwich, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to.
2) That the satellite disc shall be painted brown to match the color
of the house and that the painted surface shall be properly
maintained and free from peeling paint.
3) That in the event that the property is sold the satellite disc
shall be removed from the property.
for the following reasons:
1) That the proposed disc antenna location is the only available
position on the property where a satellite signal can be received.
2) That the proposed satellite antenna location is such that it will
have no detrimental aesthetic impact on the neighboring properties.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Gniewek, Fandrei, Morrow, Alanskas, Engebretson
NAYS: Tent, McCann
ABSTAIN: LaPine
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
°m.
12356
Mr. McCann, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 92-9-8-17
by George LaForest requesting approval of all plans required by Section
18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
construct an addition to an existing building located on the south side
of Plymouth Road just west of Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section
33.
Mr. Miller: This business is now known as Commercial Lawnmower and they are
proposing to add a 3,095 square foot addition to the property that
faces Wayne Road. It will be a rental type of facility. The
proposal does not meet the required setbacks so the petitioner will
have to go to the ZBA for a variance. Because of all the buildings
on this property they need 66 parking spaces. They are proposing
50 and the landscaping, right now, is deficient in that they are
only proposing 9% landscaping and they need 15%. For landscaping,
parking and deficient setback they will have to go to the Zoning
Board of Appeals for a variance. They will also have to get the
stone wall that is required between residential and commercial
waived. It is about 77 feet short to Wayne Road so they will have
to get that waived too.
George LaForest, 44500 Woodland Park, Northville: As I said last week the three
main problems here, the five foot difference in the setback is
caused by the fact that the building has a bay window effect for
the door. The door is the middle as we stated before and I think
aesthetically it looks much better. The building is still setting
back further than the Pearle Vision Center, which is next to us.
The landscaping on the property, I realize it is deficient. It is
an older area and we have put as much landscaping on the property
as we possibly can. If you can suggest any more, I am willing to
do it. It will be very tastefully landscaped. The variance on the
wall, I gave a letter last week to Mr. Nagy from the people that
are directly behind that and they are comfortable with the
situation the way it is now. They have a cyclone fence with a
redwood privacy on the inside of that. Their only concern was that
we have parking blocks, which are required by the City along the
parking lot to make sure no cars would jump it and hit their fence.
Last week you requested a color scheme for the building, which I
have here. You also requested that the plans be changed to
indicate that the front lawn will be sodded and a six foot sidewalk
would go along Wayne Road and that an underground sprinkler system
will be installed and the plans have been changed and they do
indicate these three things will be done.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. LaForest, you said that you were going to be coming back for
approval on the sign. Do I remember that correctly?
Mr. LaForest: Right. The sign itself will be in that design but we will have to
obviously comply with the City requirements whatever they are as to
square footage, etc.
12357
Mr. Engebretson: The color scheme that we see here would represent the colors that
you have on the building and the sign would probably look like
this.
Mr. LaForest: Exactly. In terms of actual square footage it will have to be in
compliance with the City's requirements.
Mr. Alanskas: Mr. LaForest, is there no way possible we can get more landscaping
there?
Mr. LaForest: I don't see how it is possible. We have an island inside the
drive. We have trees along the north side. We have trees and
shrubs in the front of the store. We have sod in the front along
Wayne Road. I don't see how we could possibly put any more in. We
are probably going to be adding a few more square feet on Plymouth
Road once they repave because they moved the curb up a few feet but
that is about all.
Mr. Alanskas: It is really deficient as far as landscaping.
Mr. LaForest: All I can say is eventually Mr. Brown owns the parcel directly to
the west and when he decides to exercise his use of that easement
across the back wall, we can probably put a few more islands in
that area. I think you will find that the landscaping that will be
done will be very attractive. We will have a lot of flowers like
we do in front of Commercial and will be maintained but I don't see
how we could possibly put anymore where it would have impact on the
front of the building.
Mr. Alanskas: The building looks very nice. There is no denying that.
Mr. LaForest: It will look much better because right in front of the store where
it is now dirt will have shrubs, etc installed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. McCann, seconded by Mr. Tent and unanimously approved,
it was
#10-488-92 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby approve Petition
92-9-8-17 by George LaForest requesting approval of all plans required
by Section 18.58 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal
to construct an addition to an existing building located on the south
side of Plymouth Road just west of Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of
Section 33 subject to approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals and also
subject to the following condition:
1) That the site plan 6130 sheet SD-1 dated 9/21/92 prepared by Thomas
W. Kurmas & Associates is hereby approved and shall be adhered to.
2) That the sign package shall be approved by the Planning Commission
before installation.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing
resolution adopted.
12358
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 651st Regular Meeting
held on October 13, 1992 was adjourned at 8:47 p.m.
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
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