HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 1996-03-12 14736
MINUTES OF THE 721st REGULAR MEETING AND PUBLIC HEARINGS
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF
LIVONIA
On Tuesday, March 12, 1996 the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its
721st Regular Meeting& Public Hearings in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center
Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. Jack Engebretson, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m., with
approximately 45 interested persons in the audience.
Members present: Jack Engebretson William LaPine Robert Alanskas
Daniel Piercecchi Patricia Blomberg
Members absent: James C. McCann R. Lee Morrow
Messrs. H. G. Shane, Ass't. Planning Director; and Scott Miller, Planner I, were also
present.
Mr. Engebretson informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a
rezoning request, this Commission only makes a recommendation to the City Council
who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and decide the question. If a petition
involves a waiver of use request and the request is denied, the petitioner has ten days in
which to appeal the decision to the City Council; otherwise the petition is terminated. The
Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a preliminary plat and/or a vacating
petition. Planning Commission resolutions become effective seven days after the
resolutions are adopted. The Planning Commission has reviewed the petitions upon their
filing and have been furnished by the staff with approving and denying resolutions. The
Commission may use them or not use them depending upon the outcome of the hearing
tonight.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda is Petition 96-1-1-2 by
Open Door Christian Church requesting to rezone property located on the north
side of Munger Avenue between Middlebelt Road and Oporto Street in the
Northeast 1/4 of Section 14 from OS to RUF.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane: We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
they have no objections to this rezoning proposal.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner with us this evening?
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Mark Freer: I am the Pastor of Open Door Christian Church. My address is 28035
Farmington, Farmington Hills. We are a nondenominational church
started in 1976. I have been the Pastor for 16 years. We have owned
the building in downtown Northville for about 16 years. We have had
it on the market for several years to sell it for several reasons. It is
landlocked. There is no property adjoining it. It is right in the middle
of a commercial district in downtown Northville. It hasn't been an
easy property to sell so at different times we have looked at several
buildings in different areas but no sale ever went through. Finally, it
was purchased by a local businessman and we began our search for a
new facility. At this time the majority of our congregation is centered
in the Livonia, Redford, Farmington area so the move for us moves
closer to the center of our congregation from where we currently are in
Northville. What we were looking for was something, we have 110
members, and we were looking for something with a little bit of
acreage and adequate office space and Sunday School classrooms. We
have gone through the neighborhood and talked to many of the
neighbors who were happy the church was moving in and had
expressed to us that they were in favor of the rezoning. They liked it
better than office zoning because it was compatible with the zoning of
their property. The only concern that was raised by any of the
neighbors was concerning right hand turns out of the building and we
informed them we did not have any problem with a"No Right Turn"
sign so they would not be utilizing the residential area exiting out to
Middlebelt.
Mr. LaPine: Are you going to do any renovation of the building at all?
Pastor Freer: The only thing we have planned is in what was formerly the cafeteria
and the gymnasium which is now be used for union meetings, etc., is
they dropped the ceiling to about ten feet. We would like to raise that
up. We would like to repaint the wood on the outside and the trim, and
according to an agreement that had been made previously with the
Livonia Education Association we have to resurface the parking lot.
Mr. LaPine: So I assume if you get your rezoning, then you are going to purchase
the property. Is that correct?
Pastor Freer: Exactly.
Mr. LaPine: You are a nondenominational church. You only have one service on
Sunday I understand. Is it 9:00 to 11:00?
Pastor Freer: No we meet from 10:00 to 12:00.
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Mr. LaPine: You don't have any Sunday night services?
Pastor Freer: No Sunday night services.
r..
Mr. LaPine: The only other day of the week you have any services in there is
Thursday night. Is that correct?
Pastor Freer: Correct.
Mr. LaPine: I am just curious. Most churches have a sanctuary. Is the multi-
purpose room going to be where you are going to hold your services?
Pastor Freer: We will convert that into a sanctuary.
Mr. LaPine: There are quite a number of classrooms in there. You say you have
110 members. How many children do you have on Sunday for Sunday
School?
Pastor Freer: On average 30 to 40.
Mr. LaPine: Will the building be utilized for anything else during the week?
Pastor Freer: No during the week we will have our office hours there. We do quite a
bit of mission work. We need some office space for that. We provide
`ow literature to third world countries, train pastors and things like that.
There will be things like that but there will only be three people.
Mr. LaPine: There will be other activities during the week but not as much as goes
on there now during the week?
Pastor Freer: Correct.
Mr. LaPine: As you know, there is a kitchen area. Do you have any plans to do any
rental there for a hall or for weddings or anything like that.
Pastor Freer: At this point what we have done with our current building is only used
it for members of the congregation.
Mr. LaPine: I can assume that policy will continue at this location?
Pastor Freer: We don't have any plans to change that at this point.
Mr. Piercecchi: Mr. Shane, what is the current tax status of that building?
Mr. Shane: It is taxable.
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Pastor Freer: When I looked at the records, it said it was non-taxable. It had been
non-taxable as a school and then it was non-taxable as a teacher's
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union.
Mr. Piercecchi: If I remember right Munger Road does not go through.
Mr. Shane: No it doesn't.
Mr. Piercecchi: Are there any plans to run that through?
Mr. Shane: If I remember it right it runs into a flood plain area west of there.
Mr. Engebretson: Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this
proposal.
Steve Anleitner, 29572 Munger: That is right next door to the proposed rezoning. I
really don't have a big problem with it being rezoned RUF there or
having a church there. The one concern Mr. Freer did address was the
"No right Turn" at the end of the driveways because that would take a
lot of the traffic through the bulk of the neighborhood. I am all for
having no right turns. I haven't had a chance to talk to Mr. Freer but I
would like to address this body that the expansion of Ward
Presbyterian Church seems to be pretty well packed into that lot. I
would like to see the property stay within the RUF size limits of 10% of
the property according to local ordinances. My other concern is
whether or not there is going to be other than Sunday School any
outdoor activities planned whether it is services, rallies, day-care
center, or any of that type of nature. All I would like to see in the
event of something like that happening is a wall or a privacy fence
between the residential property surrounding the building.
Mr. Engebretson: The matter of the amount of the property that is covered, that
particular issue would be more appropriately covered at the site plan
approval process, the waiver use and site plan which would come next
if this rezoning is successful. Zoning changes cannot have conditions
like that attached to them by law. While we understand your point and
we realize it is a concern that is important to you, we can't deal with it
tonight. We will deal with it another time if the zoning is successful,
and I think Pastor Freer indicated, to my satisfaction, the level of
activities planned there now. The problem is things change and
somewhere down the road they may have some additional activity but it
sounds to me like this organization plans to live in harmony with the
neighborhood based on the outreach that I have heard tonight and I
have a feeling that you are going to be able to work out your concerns
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with them, but the City has ordinances to deal with issues that become
problematical and you have many ways of obtaining recourse if these
things do become a problem. I don't think they are going to but you
�'"' have that satisfaction.
Mr. Anleitner: Neither do I.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-1-1-2 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mrs. Blomberg, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-34-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on March 12, 1996 on Petition 96-1-1-2 by Open Door
Christian Church requesting to rezone property located on the north side of
Munger Avenue between Middlebelt Road and Oporto Street in the Northeast
1/4 of Section 14 from OS to RUF, the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 96-1-1-2 be approved for the
following reasons:
1) That the proposed change of zoning is compatible to and in harmony with
the surrounding uses and zoning districts in the area;
2) That the proposed change of zoning is consistent with adjacent residential
uses along Munger Avenue;
3) That the proposed change of zoning will provide for a residential oriented
use on the subject property; and
4) That the proposed change of zoning reduces the amount of non-residential
zoning in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543,
as amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-1-1-3 by
Jose and Stella Evangelista requesting to rezone property located on the west side
of Farmington Road between Orangelawn Avenue and Plymouth Road in the
Northeast 1/4 of Section 33 from RUF to R-1.
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Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
,Nksw Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating: The
following concerns are brought to your attention relative to this petition.
1) We note that Farmington Road has not been dedicated to its fullest
extent (60 feet) adjacent to the petition area in accordance with the
City's Master Thoroughfare Plan. 2) We recommend that the petition
be reviewed from a standpoint of the areas beyond the subject site
including a recommended public street connection from Farmington
Road to the Wellington Woods/Orangelawn Woods Subdivision areas.
Currently there are over 100 home sites that must access Stark Road by
means of Parkdale Avenue with no other means of ingress and egress
from a standpoint of emergency equipment, construction, etc. 3) The
preliminary layout of the residential development submitted with the
rezoning petition does not provide for adequate turn around areas for
large commercial or emergency vehicles. This matter would require
additional study based on the final site plan layout.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner present this evening?
The petitioner was not in attendance.
Mr. Engebretson: Is there anyone who came down here tonight to address this issue?
John Colucci: My law office is on Farmington Road. I own those two particular
pieces of property north of Dr. Evangelista's property and there are
two houses on those two parcels and they comprise roughly three
acres, and my law office is just north of that. I am not really speaking
out against Dr. Evangelista's property. I know he wants to put it to a
good use. My problem is if cluster housing is permitted, you have a 24
foot private drive that would service six or seven houses that he intends
to build. Many of my clients are in this area. I don't think it is
compatible with the subdivision that is being developed directly to the
west. You see where the cul-de-sac is and the road ends right there,
logically you would want to put the road right through to Farmington
and then access the properties. The real problem is Dr. Evangelista and
I can't seem to get together and therefore my comments are somewhat
self-serving but I don't want them to be that way. When you look at
what he wants to build, and you look at money that has been invested
in the property behind his property, I think that we owe something to
those people to build houses that are compatible to the neighborhood.
I am willing to cooperate with the City. If they want to develop
something, make a suggestion, I am amenable to it. Perhaps Dr.
Evangelista and I can get together. It is a five-acre parcel but I own
two houses on it and I presume they would have to be razed. That is
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my concern. If the Planning Commission sees fit to approve it, I guess
that is all right with me too because it is his property. I just don't feel
that particular design is beneficial to the subdivision directly behind the
*" property. As far as my property is concerned, I don't know that the
impact would be particularly great. I have two houses that are rented
out. The woods are in back. I have no use for them at this time but
perhaps some day they will be developed. If you have any questions.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Colucci did you own those parcels when this Evangelista property
was considered for rezoning six or seven years ago?
Mr. Colucci: I have owned the one parcel since 1984. That is the one furthest
north, and then the one in the middle I think I bought that from John
Lindstrom about seven or eight years ago.
Mr. Engebretson: So you did own the property when there was an earlier petition looking
to rezone that?
Mr. Colucci: Yes at that time he wanted to put in some form of subsidized housing.
It was housing for the elderly.
Mr. Engebretson: That was the second one Mr. Colucci. There was a previous one in
1990 that dealt with cluster housing as I recall. I remember you
appearing here but I don't remember what your interest was at that
`441., time.
Mr. Colucci: Essentially the same. It should be developed. Together we have five
acres.
Mr. Engebretson: We would agree with you.
Mr. LaPine: I have to agree with what you said. I think the right way to develop
this whole parcel is with a road down the center connecting with the
road into Wellington Subdivision and then you can build houses on
both sides of that road. I guess my question is have you and
Evangelista discussed this? I understand the last time you were here
we asked you about this and I guess you two couldn't get together
whether it was a problem with price or whatever, but it seems to me the
logical thing for both individuals would to take the whole five acres and
develop it into a nice subdivision compatible to what is behind it, which
would be beneficial to both parties the way I look at it. At this point
you don't think that is a possibility?
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Mr. Colucci: Well it is always possible. We just haven't been able to agree on
numbers. I offer him this option. Let him set the price on his land and
give me the option to buy or sell, and I will do the same.
v...
Mr. Piercecchi: I think it would be nice if we could develop this area too but I question
really if single family cluster really qualifies. In looking over Section
20.02 it says contains natural assets, to me it is just a field; has a
substantial portion of its perimeter adjacent to major office, he only has
an office on one spot; contains a flood plain, does not; contains poor
soil, it doesn't appear to; contains acute angles or is of shallow depth as
measured from the thoroughfare, and it certainly doesn't do that. I
don't see how it qualifies for cluster housing. I think the best thing to
do Mr. Chairman is to table it or deny it.
Mr. Engebretson: I think one of those two things will happen. I think, Mr. Piercecchi,
tabling would be the best approach because that might give the City an
opportunity to work with Mr. Colucci and the Evangelistas as an
intermediary possibly to see if we can't work this out.
Mike Saez, 33761 Angeline: This is directly west of the property they are talking about.
We are in that new sub. One reason we bought in that sub and one
reason a lot of the neighbors bought in that sub is because it wasn't
connected to Farmington Road. We like the privacy, and that is one of
the reasons we wanted to buy in there. Our biggest concern is we
don't want to see a road come through there. I think everybody else in
that neighborhood would feel the same way.
Mr. Engebretson: The way that cul-de-sac was designed, it really envisioned the day the
road would go through for some of the reasons we heard from the
Engineering Department.
Mr. Saez: When we talked to the builders, at the time, they said they weren't
looking at it going through. That is why we looked at that and even
the new division they put in, they tore all the trees down and right now
I have a clear view right to Plymouth Road, which is not what I wanted
when I bought there. It is a concern I think a lot of my neighbors
would have, having that road come through because we would get a lot
of traffic then off Farmington Road.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-1-1-3 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously
approved, it was
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#3-35-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on Petition 96-1-1-3 by Jose and Stella Evangelista
requesting to rezone property located on the west side of Farmington Road
sla" between Orangelawn Avenue and Plymouth Road in the Northeast 1/4 of
Section 33 from RUF to R-1, the City Planning Commission does hereby
determine to table Petition 96-1-1-3 until date uncertain
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-2-3 by
James Moriarty requesting waiver use approval to operate a limited service
restaurant in an existing building located on the south side of Five Mile Road
between Newburgh Road and Blue Skies Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section
19.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
they have no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also
received letters from the Fire Marshal and Traffic Bureau stating they
have no objection to this proposal. Lastly, we have received a letter
from the Inspection Department stating no deficiencies or problems
were found.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner present?
Jim Moriarty, 1315 Chicago, Troy: We propose to open a coffee shop in the described
location, a limited-service restaurant, 30 seats maximum. There
presently is one rest room in the facility that is not handicap equipped.
That will be corrected. The second rest room will be built accordingly.
Essentially that is our proposal. We would like to offer specialty
coffees, expresso, cappuccino, perhaps light sandwiches, pastries and
related items, bagels, maybe some candies. There is not to be a grill or
oven or a stove in the facility.
Mr. Alanskas: You spoke very well. You did a really good job. Just a few questions.
Would this be a 7-day a week operation?
Mr. Moriarty: Yes.
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Mr. Alanskas: What would your hours be:
`r.
Mr. Moriarty: We are proposing starting at 6:30 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., and closing time
no later than midnight, maybe 1:00 a.m. on weekends.
Mr. Alanskas: Do you plan on doing any remodeling inside the building?
Mr. Moriarty: Oh yes.
Mr. Alanskas: Like what?
Mr. Moriarty: The floors, the ceiling, literally everything that is visible right now
needs to be improved. The walls need a tremendous amount of work.
The floor needs a tremendous amount of work. We are going to have
part tile, part carpeting. The walls will be painted. The ceiling tiles will
be replaced.
Mr. Alanskas: Is this your first?
Mr. Moriarty: It is.
Mr. Alanskas: Would you have in a coffee shop young teenagers loitering in the area?
Mr. Moriarty: We hope not. We are aware there are two colleges and a high school
within 1 1/2 mile - 2 mile radius of that site, and it is sort of between a
rock and a hard spot. Although I would not like that element, the high
school age, to be my primary client base, we are aware this type of
business would attract them. I intend to simply be mature about it, and
I am not promoting loitering, litter, etc. I want to own and operate a
fine operation.
Mr. Alanskas: If it does happen, you will have a policy to move these individuals
along?
Mr. Moriarty: Yes.
Mr. Piercecche: Do you run in direct competition to the Subway that is in there now
with 30 seats, and a Linden with 10 seats and three carry-out
restaurants. Will your fare be different or would you be in direct
competition with those restaurants?
Mr. Moriarty: I don't see any direct competition other than perhaps one more place to
have lunch or a sandwich. The type of sandwiches would be different.
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Certainly the beverages would be very unique compared to what is
there today.
Mrs. Blomberg: From my experience with coffee shops, which I happen to love, my
kids love them too. They are 24 and 26 years old. They go to Ann
Arbor to go to a coffee shop. They like the delicacies and the coffees,
and I like it as a lunch spot. This is what I am perceiving it to be
somewhere where you can go in and get the delicacies and specialty
coffees and light lunches.
Mr. Moriarty: Exactly.
Mrs. Blomberg: With the late hours you can go after the show and it is not alcoholic.
Mr. LaPine: I guess my vision of a coffee shop is a little different than what I have
known. From the menu that you described, to me it looks more like a
restaurant than a coffee shop. We just approved a coffee shop not too
long ago on Farmington Road which serves basically coffee only and
pastries. Yours is serving sandwiches. You talk about the possibility
of ice cream, which leads me to believe you are more in the restaurant
business than you are the coffee shop business. One other thing that
coffee shops do have, and I just found this out, they do have some type
of little jazz bands come in, people play different instruments. Do you
have any idea of having anything like that at this location?
Mr. Moriarty: That has been discussed and considered, and again that is one of those
things we will determine in the future. Certainly I would like to reserve
the opportunity to offer it, but I don't intend for something like that to
be a regular or the primary feature to the operation, nor would the
sandwiches be a primary feature. It is a coffee shop.
Mr. LaPine: So basically the main item you are pushing is coffee, expresso and all
the other type of coffees they have. Mr. Shane, is entertainment
allowable in a restaurant like that?
Mr. Shane: Yes as an accessory.
Mrs. Blomberg: The way I have seen coffee shops is you don't hire entertainment.
People come in with their instruments and they just kind of play them
together and drink coffee. Is that correct?
Mr. Moriarty: If that were to occur, I would pursue that and decide at that time. At
this point in time I am not soliciting anything like that. Again, I don't
foresee that being a primary feature.
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Mrs. Blomberg: The one on Eight Mile does have sandwiches and bagels. They also
have yogurt. I understand you will also have ice cream. I like that.
Mr. Engebretson: I have never been to a coffee shop. I understand it is an extremely
popular concept and it is growing very rapidly so we will need to get
educated on this. Is this a franchise or an independent operation?
Mr. Moriarty: Solely independent.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Alanskas asked you if it was your first but he never asked you first
what. First business venture, first coffee shop?
Mr. Moriarty: First coffee shop.
Mr. Engebretson: Have you been in similar businesses elsewhere?
Mr. Moriarty: I have been involved in restaurant organizations in my career years ago.
Previously I have been in the gifi shop business.
Mr. Engebretson: The reason for asking is that these waiver uses have significance that
goes beyond your particular request, that being the concept of waivers
being granted for this particular use, and if you should leave then the
use is in place for someone else that may not have as nice a program as
r.w you have to offer and then has the right to use that space. So we are
very much interested in your succeeding, assuming this is approved,
and having some experience in similar businesses is usually a good
indication that you have a good chance, so it is not just a matter of
being nosy. One of the things I understand have become very popular
at these types of businesses are connections to the internet with the
Cyber Cafe type of approach. Do you have any consideration of that
type of operation?
Mr. Moriarty: Not at this time. One of the things that this type of a business allows is
flexibility. Three to five years down the road something like that would
be possible. Today, no I don't have an interest in that.
Mr. Engebretson: Three to five years down the road who knows what is going to be
happening but this concept is extremely popular these days and maybe
some day you would want to look at that, and finally I would be
interested in knowing what is the price range for a cup of coffee in a
coffee shop like this? What could I expect?
Mr. Moriarty: Give or take $2.00. $2.00 give or take 25 or 35 cents for a cup of
cappuccino.
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Mr. Engebretson: Well assuming it is successful, I am going to make it my business to
come and purchase a cup of coffee. Finally I would like to say you did
�.. a fine job representing yourself here tonight. You have prepared
yourself well for the next step, which is to appear before the City
Council, and it should be a breeze after you have had this experience.
Mr. Alanskas: H, in the summertime it is very hot. Would they be allowed if they
wanted to bring some tables out on the sidewalk there and serve people
there?
Mr. Shane: No, unless he specifically asks for it,and is granted a variance from the
Zoning Board of Appeals.
Mr. Moriarty: If I am not mistaken that was part of the proposal. I want to reserve
the right to put a picnic table or two outdoors with the landlord's
approval and my neighbors' approval and, of course, with the City's
and the Health Department's approval. My understanding is that if I
put eight seats outside, for example, I need to reduce inside seating by
eight.
Mr. Engebretson: I think you understand the rules but I am not so sure that is a part of
this proposal.
yr.. Mr. Shane: The C-1 zoning district prohibits outdoor seating so he would have to
go to the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Mr. Engebretson: Would it be permitted with a waiver use from the Zoning Board of
Appeals such as I have seen in other cases? It doesn't require C-2
zoning?
Mr. Shane: That is correct.
Mr. Engebretson: Understand sir that is not a part of this package. That would be a
separate process. If this is successful, make sure that you deal with the
City to find out what the steps are to obtain that outdoor seating_ . It is
not a part of this process.
Mr. Moriarty: I can initiate that at a later time?
Mr. Engebretson: I would recommend that if it is important to you for this season, that
you initiate that immediately because this process will take a number of
weeks. You have some renovations to go through and it is possible
that you could have it all finished by the time the renovations are
finished. You don't need to wait for this to end, at least I don't think
14749
you do. Perhaps you will find out that the waiver use has to go
through the process first. I am not sure.
Mr. Piercecchi: Mr. Chairman, is it not true that if there is outdoor seating, it takes
away from the indoor seating?
Mr. Engebretson: Yes he understands that.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-2-2-3 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mrs. Blomberg and seconded by Mr. Alanskas, it was
#3-36-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on Petition 96-2-2-3 by James Moriarty requesting
waiver use approval to operate a limited service restaurant in an existing
building located on the south side of Five Mile Road between Newburgh Road
and Blue Skies Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 19, the City Planning
Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition
96-2-2-3 be approved subject to a limitation on the number of customer seats
not to exceed 30 for the following reasons:
1) That the proposed use complies with all of the special and general waiver
use standards and requirements a set forth in Section 10.03 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2) That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use;
and
3) That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony with the
surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Alanskas, Blomberg, LaPine, Engebretson
NAYS: Piercecchi
ABSENT: Morrow, McCann
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
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Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-2-4 by
Orchards Children's Services requesting waiver use approval to operate a child day
care center in an existing building located on the south side of Seven Mile Road
between Canterbury Drive and Mayfield Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of Section
10.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
they note that Seven Mile Road has not been dedicated to its fullest
extent (60 feet) adjacent to the petition area in accordance with the
Master Thoroughfare Plan. We also have received a letter from the
Traffic Bureau stating the Police Department has no objections to the
site plans as submitted. Also in our file is a letter from the Inspection
Department stating the following problems or deficiencies were found.
1. The site plan does not reflect that a 5 ft. high fence has been
provided to encompass the play area. 2. Prior to occupancy, the
Inspection Department would require a plan review of the existing
structure to insure code compliance with regard to child day care
facilities.
Mr. Engebretson: I am sorry that Mr. McCann isn't with us this evening because he was
the driving force behind the ordinance that we have that governs child
care centers. Does this proposal meet all the requirements of what I
think of as the McCann Child Care Ordinance?
Mr. Shane: Yes it does. As a matter of fact, since that letter from the Inspection
Department was written, the site plan has been revised to provide for
the intensity and dimension that is required and all other requirements
have been met.
Mr. Engebretson: Do I recall correctly Mr. Shane that the petitioner has an obligation
under that ordinance to take some extraordinary step to have contact
with neighbors and to obtain their consent, I think at the level of about
60%?
Mr. Shane: That particular requirement does not appear in this waiver use
requirement.
Mr. Engebretson: Do I recall the ordinance correctly?
Mr. Shane: That part is not in this particular ordinance. It has four requirements.
It has to have access to a public street at least 86 feet or more, and it
does. It has to provide at least 5000 square feet of play area, and it
does. It requires appropriate fencing of at least five feet in height
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which shall encompass the entire play area, and it does. Then any
building erected on the premises shall be designed so as to be
r... compatible to and in harmony with the adjacent buildings. It is a
residential structure. In our opinion, it meets those four requirements.
Mr. Engebretson: What page are you reading from?
Mr. Shane: Page 19, Section 5.03(g).
Mr. Engebretson: Thank you Mr. Shane. Is the petitioner with us tonight?
Carmine DeVino: I am the petitioner for Orchards Children's Services. I have been an
employee there for 20 years and I have been a resident of the Hidden
Pines Subdivision since 1988. The Orchards, as was explained
accurately, is a child welfare agency that has two buildings on this site.
The larger residential facility that is winterized has been a group home
for over 30 years and has worked well within the community sending
children to public school without incident. I think that is why the
Police have no problem. We have a very good relationship with them
and the Livonia Public Schools which we have used for over 30 years.
The children in this home generally have been abused and neglected and
have been returned to their parents or have been adopted. About 17
years ago we started a summer day camp. I just again want to give you
r.. a little background information. The summer day camp is not
winterized. It is for children three to nine years old. Many children
from Livonia attend that day camp and also Plymouth and Canton and
these children have early developmental delays. Their speech and
language hasn't developed. They have poor socialization skills. Some
are autistic and they come to the camp in the summer to learn
socialization skills to fit better in Livonia public schools in the fall. The
plan is to get a waiver on the larger building, the residential building,
because we would like to provide year around services to the children
that we currently can only service in the summer. We currently have a
stockyard fence. That is a solid fence that runs the length of the
property from the house all the way back on the east side and on the
south side and I did say that if the waiver was approved, we would put,
as day care licensing indicates, a five foot chain link fence on the other
parts of the property where necessary. I have also spoken to DSS Day
Care Licensing and told the Fire Inspector that DSS wants to see their
report in order to license us, and I have also had a site visit from Mr.
Whitehead, the Fire Inspector for Livonia, and they have indicated to
me what has to be done to the home in order to get the day care
license.
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Mr. Alanskas: Mr. DeVino I never even knew you were there. I have questions about
the pool. You say you have three to nine year olds. How deep is the
ti.. pool?
Mr. DeVino: The deepest area is four feet.
Mr. Alanskas: How many children would you have at the busiest time of the year in a
day?
Mr. DeVino: In the house right now we are only looking to license the first floor so
we would never have more than 20 children. I would think somewhere
between 10 and 12.
Mr. Alanskas: During your day camp that you had outside, you had 20 children, how
many did you have supervising the children?
Mr. DeVino: The day camp does have about 30 children during the day. This is
during the summer so they can be in the pool, also in the building, in
the play area, and we generally have 10 to 12 staff while we have the
30 children during the summer.
Mr. Alanskas: You have never had a problem with the children and the pool?
Mr. DeVino: No we have to have a certified lifeguard all the time.
Mr. LaPine: I am a little confused. I want to get everything straight in my mind.
The building that is closest to Seven Mile Road, the two story
residential building, can you still operate that as a home for these
abused children? Are you still in that business?
Mr. DeVino: No, we are not. We removed those children and placed them in foster
homes in August and currently an employee is living in the building.
Mr. LaPine: That was one of the problems I had. If you still had those children
there, and you were taking in smaller children, are they going to be
compatible and are there any problems with the older children picking
on the younger children? That relieves my mind. So the only thing you
are going to be operating here at this time is the day care center?
Mr. DeVino: Exactly.
Mr. LaPine: It was my understanding when I read the notes I thought the building to
the rear, the one story wood frame building, is where you were going
to house these children. Do you use that building at all?
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Mr. DeVino: We use the one-story building for nine weeks in the summer for a
summer day camp and we will continue to do that.
Mr. LaPine: This building will not be used for the day care center. It will be the
main house. Is that correct?
Mr. DeVino: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: During the summer months there is a possibility you will have 20
children in the main house and the 30 children you will have for the day
camp so you could have a total of 50?
Mr. DeVino: I don't see that. I think what will happen in the summer we would
have 30 children that we normally had in the non-winterized building
but if their parents had a crisis or if their parents wanted to go to a
movie, we may provide day care after three o'clock in the big house.
Mr. LaPine: How many hours would you operate?
Mr. DeVino: I would think our operation probably would be mostly after school
from 3:00 p.m. until about 10:00 p.m. but we are considering operating
during the day. We really see it as day care for special needs kids. We
are not in competition with Little Tots, etc.
Mr. LaPine: I understand that. You take children that a normal day care wouldn't
take.
Mr. DeVino: Exactly.
Mr. LaPine: When we were out there Saturday, the circular drive, I understand you
are going to resurface that or extend it or something?
Mr. DeVino: The plan I submitted showed that I felt we would have to asphalt some
areas to provide six to seven parking spots so I tried to indicate that on
the drawing, what we thought we would have to asphalt.
Mrs. Blomberg: You said you would have special needs kids. Are these the same kind
of children you explained earlier as being autistic or mentally not
physically handicapped so to speak?
Mr. DeVino: Some of them may have cerebral palsy. The issue here is that these
children come to day care on a voluntary basis. Their parents have not
abused or neglected them. We have closed that part of our operation.
Some of them do have as I said cerebral palsy, they have some
syndromes, like where a child will overeat and you have to monitor
o.-
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their eating or they will eat so much they will get sick. They do have
those types of problems.
Mrs. Blomberg: What would the age group be?
Mr. DeVino: It will be very similar probably 3 to 9. The upper age will probably be
12.
Mrs. Blomberg: I see it is a two-story building but you mentioned it will be basically just
the first floor.
Mr. DeVino: Because of the renovations. If you wanted to use the second floor, you
would have to do a lot more renovations. A sprinkler system would
have to be put in. You would have to put drywall on all three ceilings
as I understand it so we are really only looking at the first floor at this
point.
Mrs. Blomberg: That is what I was wondering. If you were having handicapped, would
it be handicap accessible.
Mr. Alanskas: Do the children come from all cities or is it just Livonia?
Mr. DeVino: The children that now come to the day camp that we operate during the
summer do come from all areas. We draw mostly from the Livonia
area but we have people that will drive from Brighton because it is such
an unusual service where you can take an autistic child. The staff are
trained to deal with kids that have no speech. We have some kids there
that are not toilet trained. We get kids from Huntington Woods,
Brighton. We get parents that travel a long distance.
Mr. Alanskas: That is what you call a dedicated service.
Mr. LaPine: Do the parents pay for this or is this a federally funded program or
county funded program?
Mr. DeVino: For a three-week session at camp the parents would pay $170 so we
have to get our operating costs from them and also from donations so
we go to Target, we go to Hudson's, we talk about the program, we
have some company sponsorships. We also have UCS to give
camperships. Through private donors and UCS we are able to run the
day camp. The parents are charged a fairly nominal fee.
Mr. Engebretson: How would that apply to the day care aspect of the business?
14755
Mr. DeVino: We intend to run it the same way. I don't think parents that are
struggling could afford it. If we charged them what the day care would
'taw be we could charge them $15.00 to $20.00 an hour. That is not going
to work so we would charge them probably $2.75 or what normal
baby-sitting costs and we are going to have to find a way to cover our
administrative costs.
Mr. Engebretson: And you know how to do that.
Mr. DeVino: We have been able to do it for nine weeks in the summer, and we are
going to give it a shot.
Mr. Engebretson: We will now go to the audience to see if there is anyone wishing to
speak for or against this proposal.
Gayle Walters: My husband and I just bought lot 8 which is on your map at the end of
August last year, and when you walk out our doorwall from our dining
room, out onto our deck, we have an inground pool and we face
directly this home behind us. My husband and I, he did some research
on this and read some documents on it, and we agree we don't have
any problem with what they want to do there. I think it is great. I
adopted a child. I was a foster parent. My only concern I have a pool
and they have a lifeguard and I don't. That is my first issue but that is
not my primary issue. They are going to put up a fence apparently for
this play area.
Mr. Engebretson: They are required by law to do so.
Mrs. Walters: The stockade fence that they have now is a privacy fence and it comes
up in our backyard to a certain point and then we can see the full
house. Where they want to put the play yard is right where that
stockade fence stands I think. This is what my husband told me. What
we are asking is if we can get a privacy fence on the part that faces us
instead of a chain link. The only reason, our backyard has become a
very wonderful place for entertaining with our pool, etc., and I don't
mind the noise from the children at all. The other thing there will be a
lot of people coming in and out of that place and I don't want it known
that we have a pool there to a lot of people because we are already
paying high liability insurance.
Mr. Engebretson: Have you discussed your concerns with Mr. DeVino?
Mrs. Walters: No we just went down and read the documents and we have been
meaning to walk over and talk to them, and we haven't had a chance
14756
to. This is the first time I have seen this gentleman, and I would like to
have a conversation with him. I think we could work something out.
Mr. Engebretson: Why don't you talk to him this evening after this is finished. This is
step one of a two-step process. It goes on to the City Council and it
goes through this whole process again and perhaps you can have this all
worked out by the time it gets to City Council.
Mrs. Walters: I think so too.
Ann Marolla, 18825 Yorkshire: My property goes right up against the end of their
property. We have had a fine relationship with them for 12 years and
haven't had a problem. My only concern is, as with the previous
speaker, the fence area. It does end at the end of our property going
into the DNR property and we have a dog and we have children and I
just want to make sure if any of the children ever did venture out into
our property, that wouldn't be a problem. Also, there is a creek back
there but it sounds like they would put up a chain link fence, so really
renovations is one of my biggest concerns. Also, the structure they
have right now that is only operated in the summer, we just want to
make sure they will not be able to paint it bright yellow and red because
our deck is looking onto that. Also, the hours of operation. He did say
3:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. in the afternoon but in the summer we just
wanted to make sure that when they run the day care they don't start at
six or seven in the morning.
Mr. Engebretson: They are required by law to surround that play area by a fence. I think
that should allay your concerns there. Relative to the renovations and
things, I suggest you talk to Mr. DeVino also, and assuming you can
get it all worked out this can go on through the process, and if you
can't then you can appear at the City Council meeting and make your
concerns known to them. So there is at least one more opportunity to
deal with it, but since you haven't discussed it and he seems to have a
good relationship in the neighborhood, I have a feeling you can work
something out without the City becoming involved.
Michael Badrak, 31765 Seven Mile: That is directly east of the property. I represent
myself and my wife. We are opposed to the waiver of granting
approval of the day care center. Our reasons are excessive traffic and
noise. At the present time during the summer a day camp is operated at
the premises. Because everyone arrives and leaves at the same time the
traffic at ten in the morning and two o'clock in the afternoon is
unbearable. Many patrons use our driveway as a turnaround because
they don't know where they are going on Seven Mile Road and you all
know how heavy traffic can be on Seven Mile. We really don't
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appreciate them turning in our driveway. During the camp hours the
noise from the children is so loud that we must keep our doors and
w.. windows closed in order to talk on the telephone. There is also
excessive noise from car doors banging and engines running. This lady
that talked just a little while ago that just recently moved in, probably
doesn't realize about the noise, and she is even closer to that day care
area than I am, but she will find out this summer. During the last five
years there has been a dumpster on the east side of the property directly
bordering us. Every time the dumpster is emptied every week the truck
shakes our home and creates more noise. That is Waste Management
Company and I am sure if you have ever seen an apartment complex
when those things pick up and drop down, it is actually cracking my
living room wall. When garbage is thrown into the dumpster the
residents there are not very careful and miss and we have garbage all
over our yard. The dumpster was removed this past September. If the
day care center moves in, will the dumpster be necessary? I am sure it
will be with 20 children, maybe some with diapers. The garbage will
have to go somewhere. Since September a couple has been in the
Orchard home. It has been the best quiet time in 18 years that I have
been living there with myself and my wife. What I am looking for
basically is peace and quiet. This is the first time that I have had an
opportunity to talk about that structure that has been there all those
years. If the waiver is granted, we feel we are entitled to a privacy
fence like they have bordering Hidden Pines. They have it and we feel
we are entitled to the same benefit they have, and that would run all the
way from our property line to Seven Mile Road, which we have about
an acre so that is quite a bit. We feel if the dumpster is to be used
again, that it be placed on the west end of the property bordering the
Rotary Park woods beside it. Therefore it would be further away from
our home and we wouldn't be hearing it. Thank you for your time.
Donald Payne: My wife and I bought the home that is on lot 13, which abuts the
property at the rear end of the property. When we bought, which was
just a little over a year ago, I was quite concerned about that parcel of
property and how it was used, and we made inquiries around the
neighborhood to find out what the operation was and what problems
there were, etc. before we actually bought. It seemed like the previous
operation has not been a problem, and last summer was our first real
summer there so we had first hand experience, and the day camp that
was operating there for the short period of time was not a problem but
I have great concern about what is being proposed now. I would have
to go on record as being opposed to it. The privacy fence that
separates the adjoining residential property is probably 35 feet from the
back wall of my house and I would be very concerned about what kind
of activities went on the other side of that privacy fence.
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Mr. Engebretson: What would those concerns be?
Mr. Payne: The noise level, the kind of activity back there. I have a deck off the
back of the house and that is only about 15 feet from the fence. If there
is going to be a high level of activity there with younger children, I am
afraid the noise and the commotion would detract from the value of
those homes along that stretch.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-2-2-4 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-37-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on March 12, 1996 on Petition 96-2-2-4 by Orchards
Children's Services requesting waiver use approval to operate a child day care
center in an existing building located on the south side of Seven Mile Road
between Canterbury Drive and Mayfield Avenue in the Northeast 1/4 of
Section 10, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City
Council that Petition 96-2-2-4 be approved subject to the following conditions:
�.. 1) That the Site Plan dated 2-8-96 prepared by David C. Adams& Son,
Registered Land Surveyors, Inc. which is hereby approved, shall be
adhered to.
2) That the dumpster on site will be located on the west side of the
property.
for the following reasons:
1) That the proposed use complies with all of the special and general waiver
use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 5.03 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2) That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use;
and
3) That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony with the
surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543,
as amended.
14759
Mrs. Blomberg: I am going to support this because I don't think it is a lot different than
what has already been taking place there, and it was compatible to the
neighbors then. I think it probably will work out to be compatible with
them now. It might sound different but it sounds a lot similar to me.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-2-5 by
Gary C. Treadway requesting waiver use approval to operate a carry-out
restaurant with 12 seats (Dairy Queen) in the Four Oaks Plaza Shopping
Center located on the northwest corner of Newburgh and Joy Roads in the
Southeast 1/4 of Section 31.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
their office has no objection to this waiver use proposal. We have also
received letters from the Traffic Bureau and Fire Marshal stating their
offices have no objections to this proposal. Also in our file is a letter
from the Inspection Department stating no deficiencies or problems
were found.
Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please step forward?
Gary Treadway, 27089 East River, Grosse Ile: The proposed site is for a limited Dairy
Queen, and by limited we mean soft-serve ice cream, and limited foods,
which would be hot dogs, barbecue beef and barbecue chicken. No
frying whatsoever. No french fries. No grill whatsoever.
Mr. Alanskas: Our notes show including hamburgers and french fries.
Mr. Treadway: That is incorrect. No hamburgers or french fries.
Mr. Engebretson: Have you run a similar business?
Mr. Treadway: Yes. I have been in the Dairy Queen business for ten years. I have one
in Dearborn Heights and one in Lincoln Park.
Mr. Engebretson: Is that in the past tense or do you own them currently?
Mr. Treadway: I own them currently.
Mr. Engebretson: The same franchise?
14760
Mr. Treadway: Yes, and they are seasonal operations.
%401.-
Mr.
rr. Mr. Engebretson: Will that be the case here as well?
Mr. Treadway: No. this will be year round.
Mr. Alanskas: What will be your hours of operation?
Mr. Treadway: 11:00 a.m. until approximately 10:00 p.m.
Mr. Alanskas: Seven days a week?
Mr. Treadway: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: This issue of frying hamburgers and french fries, that is a firm decision?
Mr. Treadway: Dairy Queen will not allow it.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Shane was that just a misunderstanding possibly? We are not at
risk here getting approval of the prepared motion?
Mr. Shane: No. Sometimes we contact the owners of shopping centers and they
don't always give us the right information. It was a misunderstanding.
There was no one present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr. Engebretson,
Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-2-2-5 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-38-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on Petition 96-2-2-5 by Gary C. Treadway requesting
waiver use approval to operate a carry-out restaurant with 12 seats (Dairy
Queen) in the Four Oaks Plaza Shopping Center located on the northwest
corner of Newburgh and Joy Roads in the Southeast 1/4 of Section 31, the
City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that
Petition 96-2-2-5 be approved subject to a limitation on the number of
customer seats not to exceed a total of 12 for the following reasons:
1) That the proposed use complies with all of the special and general waiver
use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 10.03 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2) That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use; and
14761
3) That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding
uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543,
as amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-2-6 by
Alan Tanski requesting waiver use approval to construct and operate a used car
sales facility to be located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Laurel
Avenue and Wayne Road in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 33.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
their office has no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also
received letters from the Traffic Bureau and the office of the Fire
Marshal stating their offices have no objections to this waiver use
proposal. Also in our file is a letter from the Inspection Department
stating the following deficiencies or problems were found: 1. Because
this building has a zero yard setback on the west side of the building,
the building must be of fireproof construction with no openings or
windows on the west elevation. The plan submitted is of insufficient
detail to determine the above. They end by saying no other problems
or deficiencies were found. We have also received a letter from the
Plymouth Road Development Authority stating they support this
petition.
We have also received a letter from James & Sunday Dupuie stating
they would wholeheartedly support this petition if a few concerns could
be addressed such as an erection of a"No Right Turn" sign visible to
those cars exiting the car lot to Laurel which would discourage people
from using their residential street. This sign, coupled with a"radius
drive" will encourage people to turn north toward Plymouth Road
when leaving the lot. This may help reduce traffic on their street. In
addition, the installation of large lot lights for night-viewing can be
intrusive to those living closest to the lot. They requested that some
consideration be given to this issue when choosing the intensity and
adjusting the beam direction of such lights.
14762
We have also received a letter from Kin Properties of White Plains,
New York stating they are managing agent for the property owner at
34800 Plymouth Road, Fundamentals, Inc. They state the property
owner wishes to state its objection to the granting of this waiver use
approval because they believe that the operation of a used car facility
will be detrimental to the property values of all nearby properties, and
should not be approved.
Mr. Engebretson: Would the petitioner please come forward.
Robert Allen: I am with John Allen Architects. I am representing Mr. Alan Tanski
this evening. I would like to take a minute to set up.
Mr. Engebretson: While we are waiting Mr. Shane, my recollection is that this land was
previously occupied by Bob Evans and they parked trucks there, etc.
Didn't we go through a process to approve a similar facility there
several years ago?
Mr. Shane: The latest one I remember was a request for a drive-thru restaurant.
That is the latest thing I remember.
Mr. Engebretson: It went from Bob Evans to a drive-thru restaurant. Wasn't Bob Evans
considering renovating that?
Mr. Shane: They subsequently tore down the structure on the site.
New
Mr. Allen: I am here this evening to represent Mr. Tanski. Mr. Tanski is here this
evening together with his attorney, Bryan Amann from Brashear,
Tangora& Spence. I am here to present their project which involves
something different than a typical used car dealership. Mr. Tanski has
been in business selling previously owned cars for approximately 25
years and he has been in the process of looking for a site that would be
appropriate for the kind of vehicles he represents. In particular, the
name of his business is New Car Alternatives, and what he sells
generally are previously owned leased cars that have been turned in,
basically cars of fairly high end newer vintage. It is a very limited type
of product that he is selling. As part of that he is looking for a site that
would be located near other dealerships where he could provide a
signature type building, that would be representative of the quality of
these products he is selling, and we have attempted to design
something that would be appropriate for that on this site. With regards
to the project we are presenting in front of you tonight, the project is a
7,000 square foot showroom. It is only a showroom. It is not a
service facility. It is not a test facility. It is there just to show the cars,
and together with that if you look at the way it is oriented on Plymouth
14763
Road you will see there is a very limited amount of asphalt that
presents itself to the public, so in terms of its approach, it is quite a bit
No,„ different than standard car dealers that set way back from the road and
have parking in front of it. Actually in terms of its presentation to the
public, I think it is very much going to seem like a very select number
of vehicles that have been presented for their purchase. With regards
to the design of the facility, if you are familiar with the site, there is a
limited amount of existing vegetation on there. We decided to take
advantage of an opportunity to retain one of the larger trees on the
site, and we are essentially surrounding that with the building really to
provide a complimentary focal point to this element which will be the
entry on the corner. Again, in terms of appearance you can see it is
very low key. The exterior finish is a synthetic stucco finish. The only
color is the dark green, which will fit in very nicely with the
landscaping, and with the substantial amount of landscaping we are
introducing in front of the building and along the windows, I think it is
going to be a very good neighbor to the residents who are adjacent to
it. In terms of the nature of the business, it will employ approximately
six staff people at peak times. It is open from 9:00 a.m. until 7:00 p.m.,
six days a week, five days during the summertime, and again in terms of
the activities that will be going on there, it is a very low key operation
compared to a new car dealership. With regards to some of the
comments that came up, certainly we understand the neighbors'
Newconcerns about their street being used as a test drive. I don't really feel
that the nature of this business, with this limited product as well as the
fact they do not provide service, it should really diminish the traffic on
their street. I don't feel the owner would object to providing the "No
Right Turn" sign at that corner. Other than that, we think this proposal
probably will present a very hospitable neighbor and a good use for this
site and would clean up a corner that needs something.
Mr. Engebretson: Can you address the issue of the parking lot lights?
Mr. Allen: The lighting on the site is all shielded, and it is located on the edges of
the parking lot towards the building. It will be shielded and will not be
going towards the neighbors.
Mr. Engebretson: Is it safe to assume that home to the rear would not have any light
coming onto their property?
Mr. Allen: There should be no glare coming from any of the light fixtures.
Mr. Engebretson: If there were, you could make adjustments?
Mr. Allen: Certainly.
14764
Mr. Piercecchi: You answered basically one of my questions. I wanted to know how
many light poles you had and how it would affect the property on the
*ow south side. How far back does that building go in relationship to the
property owner on the south side of Laurel?
Mr. Allen: I am not sure. Approximately 110 feet.
Mr. Piercecchi: A lot of distance. Why six 9'x 20' parking spaces? Why can't you
follow the ordinance on that and make them 10'x 20'?
Mr. Allen: The actual display area I understand from your Code Enforcement
Official doesn't even necessarily have to be striped. The thought is
they are display cars. They are not really spaces used for parking, and
they will always be occupied. I think the ordinance requires 13 visitor
parking spaces. We have provided 17 in addition to the display spaces.
Mr. Piercecchi: I am aware that you meet the parking requirements and I am aware that
you meet the landscaping requirements. I just wondered why they
couldn't all be 10'x20' but perhaps they will be sometime.
Mr. Allen: It was just a question of trying to get the best use.
Mr. Piercecchi: It would be impossible to get the 10'x20' then?
`v..
Mr. Allen: We would lose a space.
Mr. LaPine: To the rear of the building where you will probably have the biggest
share of your cars, is that going to be all paved?
Mr. Allen: Yes it is. The rear is for visitor parking primarily.
Mr. LaPine: How many cars will you have at any one time for sale?
Mr. Allen: There are facilities for display of approximately 17 spaces plus a display
area by the tree. Inside the building we envision eight to ten cars.
Mr. LaPine: So 25 cars?
Mr. Allen: Somewhere in that area.
Mr. LaPine: Where are you going to get these cars from? From dealerships that
lease cars and then you have a working agreement they sell them to
you. Is that how that works?
14765
Mr. Allen: Yes I understand he has a deal with a Cadillac dealer and other high-
end dealers. Mr. Massey will provide cars.
Mr. LaPine: The lights in the parking lot. You said the operation is until ten o'clock
in the evening?
Mr. Allen: Until seven o'clock.
Mr. LaPine: Will the parking lights go off or are you going to be leaving them on all
night?
Mr. Allen: I think they would be left on all night just for security purposes.
Mr. LaPine: What kind of signage are you going to have at this location?
Mr. Allen: The signage that has been submitted really consists of a ground
mounted sign, which on the drawing really looks misleading because it
looks as though the sign is the same height as the building. Of course it
is not. It is required to be six feet high. (He pointed the sign out on
the plan) It has a planting bed around it so it is pretty attractive.
Mr. LaPine: Does the sign meet all the requirements of the ordinance?
�.. Mr. Shane: Yes it does.
Mr. LaPine: Is that sign illuminated?
Mr. Allen: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: Will that sign be on all night too?
Mr. Allen: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: Primarily when the cars are sold, any service done will be done by some
dealership not at this location. It is my understanding the only thing
you will be doing here is you do have a car wash facility to wash cars.
Mr. Allen: That is the only facility.
Mr. LaPine: I think I read in the notes you will not have a dumpster here. All the
garbage will be picked up in front of the building.
Mr. Allen: Again with six employees you are not going to generate a volume of
refuse.
14766
Mr. Alanskas: It shows in our notes the building is going to be brick on all four sides.
%my Mr. Allen: It is a masonry building and the exterior finish is actually a dryvet.
Mr. Alanskas: So it is a block. It is not brick on all four sides?
Mr. Allen: On 3 1/4 sides it would be dryvet. A small portion of the building here
will be split-faced block and it will be painted.
Mr. Alanskas: It will be painted white?
Mr. Allen: Yes to match the color.
Mr. Alanskas: I don't want to beat the lights to death but when we were out there
Saturday there was another facility that had light poles facing straight
down and then they had straps with the mounting posts with lights
facing into the building. Will you have that?
Mr. Allen: No we will not. As part of the submission the City has told us exactly
what they want to see.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Allen, what about the suggestion that the entrance on Laurel be
engineered in a manner that pretty much forces cars to make a left turn
No
.. on Plymouth Road rather than come down Laurel.
Mr. Allen: We can look at that but there is not a very large right-of-way. We will
work with your Engineering Department and do what they feel would
be appropriate.
Mr. Engebretson: I would be satisfied with that commitment and if it can be done, you
would consider doing that, but you have agreed, as I understand, to at
least install a small directional sign there indicating "Left Turn Only".
Even though that may not be enforceable, it gets the job done for most
people.
Mr. Piercecchi: I am concerned about your having the lights on all night. Is there any
reason the lights on the back end of that lot have to be on?
Mr. Allen: I think it is a security reason just because it is a car dealership. I would
be uncomfortable with lights not being on frankly because I think you
would invite theft. I think actually the owner would be served better if
he left the lights on. They will be fully shielded and will not be shining
into the building.
14767
Mr. Piercecchi: It won't be shining into his building but you will know there is light out
there.
` or
Mr. Allen: My professional opinion is without having him here to ask, but because
of the nature of the business, I would not be comfortable
recommending to my client that we have that area dark.
Mr. Piercecchi: You weren't going to park all the cars back there were you?
Mr. Allen: No but we don't want to encourage someone to loiter back there. We
want it to be very safe and well monitored.
Mr. Piercecchi: What size wall are you going to put back there?
Mr. Allen: There is an existing wall back there now. I believe it is five feet. I
would offer that if the owner felt it was a problem, I am sure my client
would be willing to discuss something with him in terms of controlling
that light. I don't think it would be a good situation, and I think your
Police Department would probably agree with me about not having a
dark lot behind a commercial building like this.
Mr. Engebretson: Perhaps there is something in between. On and off maybe they could
just be toned down if it becomes a problem.
i.
Mr. Allen: Again, the owner is here for the long run. It is a substantial investment.
I think he wants to be a good neighbor, and certainly the investment in
the terms of the building and how we have approached it in terms of
working with the trees that are there, I think reflects a quality
commitment.
Mr. Piercecchi: I think he would be a much better neighbor if he tried to accommodate
that lighting as was suggested. Perhaps the lighting could be of lesser
quality back in those back areas during certain hours. Could you look
into that?
Mr. Allen: We can reduce the intensity back there so it would not be a problem.
Mr. LaPine: Getting back to the sign. You have nothing here that would show us
exactly what the sign would look like, the color combinations, exactly
what it would say. Could you give me some idea of what the sign is
going to say and the color combinations?
Mr. Allen: The color concept is how it is rendered here. The fascia would be the
same material as the building, off white essentially. It will be trimmed
in the dark green. I don't know the exact verbiage.
14768
Mr. LaPine: Mainly I was interested in the color combinations.
Mr. Engebretson: We will go to the audience to see if there is anyone wishing to speak
for or against this proposal.
Sunday Dupuie: My husband wrote the letter. He is not here tonight. He is out of
town. We live on Laurel southeast of the proposed lot. I have many
concerns about this. We already have quite a few cars coming down
from the VW test driving. We have dump trucks coming up and down
from servicing I guess broken down VW automobiles. We have had to
go to City Council on lot lights with that property once before. They
were very accommodating. It worked very nicely with us. I am
curious about the security, whether it will be private in the evening. If
they intend to do that or just the police cruising by. I am also
concerned about the shielded lights. I am not sure what shielded
means. If it is directional or not. We have a circular drive and right
now the lights from the VW lights up our whole backyard. Now it will
be our whole front yard. I don't know how high the lights will be.
Mr. Engebretson: 20 feet.
Mrs. Dupuie: The right-of-way out to Laurel, you mentioned something about the
left on to Laurel it wasn't large enough to turn right or something. I
didn't understand that, but inevitably they will be test driving the cars
down our street. I am a little confused. The public is coming in. They
have to drive the cars somewhere. They certainly can't take them out
on Plymouth Road. I can't get out onto Plymouth Road now. I
believe they will be coming down our street. That is another one of our
concerns. I would like to know if Mr. Tanski owns or operates any
other used car lots. I can discuss that with him. That corner right now
is an eyesore. Anything you do to that would be an improvement.
However, we are residents there. We just bought our home a year ago.
We are doing quite a bit to the home to increase the value and I am
concerned about the issues addressed in the letter from my husband.
Mr. Engebretson: Let's review them briefly here. Relative to the security, I didn't hear
the petitioner discuss any plans for any on-site security. He is
depending on the lights and the local Police Department I would guess,
but if he has other plans he can come up at the appropriate time and
mention them. You asked about the shielded lights. What does that
mean and are they directional? That is exactly what shielded lights are
all about. They are caused to shine in defined directions and I believe
they start out on Laurel pointed in on the lot and there is one or two at
the south end of the property pointing toward Plymouth Road away
14769
from you so it would be my opinion that the presentation Mr. Allen
made would satisfy me and hopefully also satisfy you, but he also
�.. indicated that if there is a problem that they would be willing to work
with the neighbors. Regarding traffic coming down your street. As
your husband suggested in his letter, and as we followed up, prohibiting
right turns onto Laurel is something that we can ask them to do, and
they have agreed to do, but that doesn't necessary mean everyone is
going to abide by that. Perhaps if it makes sense to you as a citizen to
approach the Traffic Commission and ask them to consider prohibiting
all but local traffic on that street, that is enforceable by the Police
Department. That might be something you would want to consider but
the petitioner is not in a position to do that. Your husband's
suggestion was a good one to engineer the ingress and egress from this
property onto Laurel to make it very difficult to turn right. Mr. Allen
has indicated that the right-of-way area there may not be big enough to
accommodate that kind of geometry for the drives, but he is going to
make an effort to do that between now and the time the City Council
deals with this. He will have that figured out. I believe we touched on
your particular concerns. If you have others you can take it up at
Council level.
Mrs. Dupuie: I have a question. What step does this go through next?
'taw Mr. Engebretson: The City Council.
Mrs. Dupuie: And we would be given a letter?
Mr. Engebretson: I would believe you would. Can you answer that H?
Mr. Shane: Since there will not be a public hearing at the Council level, there will
be no formal notices sent.
Mr. Engebretson: Why don't you do this madam. Why don't you call the City Council
tomorrow and ask them to give you notice when they schedule this on
their study meeting because they will do that. They are very helpful
and cooperative. They will send you a copy of that agenda and bring
that to your attention.
Mrs. Dupuie: Just one more thing. We are willing to work with any of the businesses
along Plymouth Road. As I said it is an eyesore now. Anything is an
improvement.
Mr. Engebretson: I would like to ask Mr. Tanski to come forward and just give us an
outline of his business experience that would cause him to believe he is
14770
going to be a success at this location. I am sure he is but lets let him
convince all his neighbors.
`E.
Al Tanski, 7440 Brookfield Road, Plymouth: I have been a resident of Michigan my
whole life except for a couple of years when I moved to Florida on a
venture with Mr. Massey, who owns Massey Cadillac in Plymouth. I
worked for him for 11 years. My overall goal is to become a Type A
dealer someplace, somewhere. Meanwhile I am not working for him. I
have acquired a great deal of Cadillac clientele over the 11 years. What
I propose to do is selling 2, 3 and 4 year old automobiles that are
coming off the lease. As we all know the car companies have made a
great commitment to the car for customer quality and customer
servicability and these cars aren't like they were before in the past 6, 7,
10 years ago when you bought a car and it lasted for two years and you
had to trade it in. The cars that I am going to be selling, most of them
had 100,000 mile warranties original from the manufacturer when they
were assembled for sale for the first time, so the cars have become a
great asset and the used cars have become a great part of society that
they are not falling apart like they used to. We are trying to offer a
high line car in the area where people dream about owning a Cadillac or
a Lincoln or a fancy pick-up truck and don't have the ability or don't
think they have the ability to buy a new one so we give them an
alternative so they don't have to go to the big dealer and help pay the
overhead. What we are planning on here, as John Allen said, is a good-
looking operation, a good-looking building so the community can see
that we aren't a used car lot on the side with a lot of wrecks out back.
The cars that we are representing out there are a representation of the
money we spent on the facility. I ran a Cadillac dealership in Orlondo,
Florida, that Mr. Massey owns with Arnold Palmer. The dealership
became the fourth largest Cadillac agency in the United States. It did
$16,000,000 the year I got there, its best year. I had an agreement with
him for a Buy/Sale and after the place got going they were pretty happy
with what it was doing and they thought I should be happy with how I
was paid. I am bound and determined to do something on my own so
instead of waiting for them to help me, I decided to move on my own.
I teamed up with a couple of other agencies for service. A lot of these
cars have a natural warranty from the division so they are willing to do
the service on them because they get paid over and above things that
have to be done on a maintenance type schedule. The warranty claim is
money to them. We also have a reconditioning shop in Bluffton,
Indiana, a 6,000 sq. ft. body shop that will take care of minor paints
and scratches and bumps and bruises that sometimes cars acquire, so
when they come up to the center they will be ready to go and they will
be in showroom condition. I am a Michigan State graduate.
14771
Mr. Engebretson: Seriously, you have a very impressive background, and I am sure you
will be successful here. I am interested in knowing whether you are
ti.., troubled by any of the requests that we asked your architect to address
relative to things like lights, etc.
Mr. Tanski: Well I am a salesperson, and yes I am concerned about that. In order
to be a successful salesperson you have to direct people in the way you
think they want to be directed. I think I am strong enough to tell
people when I go on a test drive folks it is a residential area, kids play
in the street, I don't think it is save to test drive a car on a 25 mph
street, let's get on Plymouth Road and get to 275 and really give this
bird a whirl. I think I am strong enough to keep the people off the
road. I think I am strong enough to manage the employees and not
have them manage me and make sure everyone turns left. I have no
objection to Mr. Allen designing some striping that gives it the
appearance they must turn left. I think it is an absolutely positive thing
to be on a road where you can do 45. I don't think you can test drive a
car and see if it is a good car at 25 mph. I would apologize if someone
would take a turn three miles down the road and come back that way.
I would surely let them know there was an objection from the
neighbors. On the lighting, for what they are going to charge me for
the lights, they better do what they say they are going to do. We are
going to have surveillance cameras that will be operating when I am not
there. I hope to be friends with the neighbors because I hope to have
them as customers.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Tanski I am sure you are very sincere in those comments. I would
suggest to you in a lighthearted way that when you quote prices you
tell then there is one price if you turn right and there is another price if
you turn left onto Laurel.
Mr. Alanskas: You are not going to sell pickup trucks there are you? It is only going
to be passenger cars?
Mr. Tanski: The pickup truck market is a very strong market as you know. It
represents about 30% of all vehicles sold. In a pickup truck variety
there are sport utility vehicles like a Bronco or Explorer. They are
going to change the station wagons and title them as cars hopefully
soon because the price of plates will come down. There will not be any
semi trucks for sale.
Mr. Alanskas: Would the pickups be in the showroom and not on Plymouth Road? I
have a problem with trucks being on Plymouth Road.
14772
Mr. Tanski: I would hate to make a promise to you. If I had a good-looking sexy
red extended cab four-wheel drive that has chrome wheels.
Mr. Alanskas: Put it in the showroom would you?
Mr. Tanski: I'll try.
Mr. Allen: If the homeowner wants more information about the plan, I would be
happy to review in detail what the light fixtures will be and how that
site will work.
Mr. Engebretson: She is right behind you and perhaps when we finish here you can
adjourn to the lobby and do that if she has time. I want to thank you
Mr. Allen for a really outstanding job here, and the manner into which
you developed this lot and the way which you have pieced this
altogether. I think you have been extremely thorough and you should
be commended.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-2-2-6 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-39-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on Petition 96-2-2-6 by Alan Tanski requesting waiver
use approval to construct and operate a used car sales facility to be located on
the south side of Plymouth Road between Laurel Avenue and Wayne Road in
the Northwest 1/4 of Section 33, the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 96-2-2-6 be approved subject to
the following conditions:
1) That the Site Plan marked Sheet SP1 dated 2-8-96 prepared by John Allen,
Architects, Inc. which is hereby approved shall be adhered to;
2) That the Building Elevation Plans marked Sheet A2 dated 2-8-96 and Sheet
A2.1 dated 2-22-96 prepared by John Allen, Architects, Inc., which are
hereby approved, shall be adhered to;
3) That the landscaping shown on the approved site plan shall be installed prior
to final inspection and shall thereafter be permanently maintained in a
healthy condition.
4) That the total number of vehicles to be stored, displayed or parked
(including customer vehicles) on the site shall be limited to no more than 33.
14773
5) That a "No Right Turn" sign shall be installed at the Laurel Avenue exit.
New
for the following reasons:
1) That the proposed use complies with all of the special and general waiver
use standards and requirements as set forth in Section 11.03 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2) That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the proposed use; and
3) That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding
uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in
accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as
amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-2-7 by
Carl C. Deal, Jr. requesting waiver use approval to operate a carry-out restaurant
ftwi, with 12 outdoor patio seats on property located on the southeast corner of
Seven Mile Road and Woodring Avenue in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 10.
Mr. Miller presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing zoning
of the surrounding area.
Mr. Shane We have received a letter from the Engineering Department stating
their office has no objections to this waiver use proposal. We have also
received a letter from the Fire Marshal's office stating their office has
no objection to this proposal. Also in our file is a letter from the
Traffic Bureau stating the plans do not conform to the Zoning
Ordinance for off-street parking requirements. The parking spaces
illustrated on the site plans are only 18' in length as opposed to the
recommended 20' length. The Police Department does not recommend
the approval of this site as submitted. Lastly we have received a letter
from the Inspection Department stating the following deficiencies or
problems were found. 1. Section 10.03(J)(2) states no on site
consumption is permitted outside of the building. Any outside seating
will require a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals. 2. Any
signage will require review and recommendation by the Planning
Commission and the approval of the City Council.
14774
Mr. Engebretson: H, regarding the size of these parking spaces, is it possible to make
them 10' x 20' based on the configuration of the parking lot?
Mr. Shane: As you may recall, we have accepted parking spaces of 18 foot in
length as long as there is room enough for 2 foot overhang in the
landscaped area.
Mr. Engebretson: Is that what is happening here?
Mr. Shane: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: Does the Traffic Bureau not realize that?
Mr. Shane: No they do not. They could be made 20 feet but then you are going to
narrow the driveway up to possibly 20 or 21 feet so it is better to have
the driveway at the required 22 feet and accept the overhang as
something we have accepted in the past.
Mr. Engebretson: So if you were to advise the Police Department of what you just said,
they would probably alter their position by the time this gets to the City
Council?
Mr. Shane: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: Would you do that?
Mr. Shane: Sure.
Mr. Engebretson: Is the petitioner here tonight?
The petitioner was not present.
Mr. Engebretson: We will go to the audience to see if there is anyone who wishes to
speak on this proposal.
Joe Mastroberto, 18935 Woodring: I am about two-thirds of the way down the street on
Woodring. I have lived there for 19 years and have seen a lot of
changes in our area. When we moved in, we had dirt streets and we
have seen the apartments go in, we have seen the bank go in, we have
seen the credit union come into the shopping area, so we have had a lot
of change. I just wanted to thank you for letting me go over my
concerns. I am against the petition basically for three reasons. The
three reasons are primarily the safety both for people and vehicles at
that intersection. Also for the character and tranquillity of our
neighborhood and for the possible housing values, which I will get to
14775
very quickly. The safety problem that bothers me is that Woodring is a
one block street and it ends at Seven Mile and it is about one quarter of
`N.w a mile long. You can get in and out of it only in two spots, Seven Mile
and at the other end. At the corner of Seven Mile and Woodring,
Seven Mile is two lanes east and two lanes west and a turning area so
you can imagine what kind of traffic we have there now. The problem
I see is that within 1/8th of a mile of Woodring, either side going east
or west, we have approximately 11 entrances and exits whether they be
into entrances, exits, driveways or streets. Going east on Seven Mile
we have Shadyside, a bank entrance, Woodring, an entrance to the new
business, a church entrance, and Loveland, all within that 1/4 mile
stretch of Woodring. Going west on Seven Mile we have Shadyside, a
shopping center entrance, a shopping center entrance, a shopping
center entrance and the apartments that are set in the back. Also the
bank has its entrance and exit of its drive-up service on Woodring,
which would be facing at least one exit or entrance of this new business
going in, so they are facing each other. Also, the other streets going
into Seven Mile are being used as shortcuts from Farmington going
north to Seven Mile going west. As my wife said before we had dinner,
she had four cars following her just to cut through. You can imagine
how difficult it can be getting in and out of that area right now without
adding anything more to it. The residents of the block are those people
that will be using that area the most and will be in more jeopardy just
'vowthe number of times they have to go in and out making those turns. My
second area the tranquillity, if you will, or the character of the block. I
believe we only have 11 families on the block. Right now I think we
only have one that has a high-school age dependent or less. If you will,
it is a bedroom community. It is a very quiet street. I am concerned
that depending how the traffic flow is going to be set up, that will
change. The housing values, they go up, they go down, but I would
think by adding more traffic and more noise, and the difficulty getting
in and out, what would happen is the desirability of someone with
children moving into the area would decrease. With that decrease, I
think the value of the homes would decrease. I moved there 19 years
ago. My son was three when I moved in. There were a lot of children
on the block then but the nature of the street has changed. I am afraid
with that increased traffic it will be a problem. I am mostly worried
about the traffic on Seven Mile and the congestion. When you come
left or come right to get in there, it is very difficult. If you make a left
or a right you are going to be coming in the same place where the new
business is going to be. If you are coming east and trying to turn into
Woodring, you have to zip over to the left to get into the center turning
lane, Someone coming the other direction that wants to go into one of
the shopping centers also, both of them would be in that lane and then
we have people heading into each other. Those are my main concerns.
14776
I know it is going to be developed. I would just like to see it
developed into something that wouldn't increase the amount of traffic
`, in that area.
Mr. Engebretson: Regarding your last comment, you are aware, I trust, that this property
is zoned for local business so it can be developed?
Mr. Mastroberto: Yes sir.
Mr. Engebretson: I guess the question is do you find something particularly objectionable
about this proposed use as compared to some other kind of commercial
business being located there?
Mr. Mastroberto: I would like to phrase it a little differently. It is going to be developed.
I would prefer to see a business on the end of the block that doesn't
increase the amount of traffic that is going to be using the Seven
Mile/Woodring area. It is my impression that for a carry-out restaurant
to be profitable, to stay in business, they need to turn over a lot of
goods, meaning a lot of traffic.
Mr. Engebretson: I am not arguing.
Mr. Mastroberto: We had Dora's clothes up there. That didn't develop that kind of
traffic. My objection is that I think this business is going to have to
increase the amount of traffic flow in the area in order to be successful.
Mr. Engebretson: So your concern really does address this particular proposed use as
compared to another use.
Mr. Mastroberto: A Rally's would do the same thing. A McDonalds would do the same
thing. Just because so many more people are going to be coming in
and out and trying to make those turns. What I heard before, I am in
the wrong area, I have to go to the Engineering Department to try to
get a request that if you decide this should go on, that there are no left
hand turns.
Mr. Engebretson: We could do that.
Mr. Mastroberto: My main thing is that business with that number of vehicles coming
and going both east and west on Seven and north and south on
Woodring with all of those entrances and exits, and the bank and the
business facing each other, with entrances and exits, causes a very
difficult and dangerous situation for the residents on that street.
Everybody enters and exits on Seven Mile.
14777
Mr. Engebretson: You explained your position very well and we appreciate it.
Mr. LaPine: The building there before this proposal came in, this was a dress shop,
was it not?
Mr. Mastroberto: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: The proposal, as I understand it, they want to put in an ice cream
parlor, per se. It is not a restaurant. It is an ice cream parlor, which I
would believe the most time that ice cream parlor would be used is in
the evening. A lot of people go out in the evening to get a yogurt and
things like that. The bank is closed at that time. I live in the area. I am
right across Seven Mile by the Kmart store. I go to Joe's Produce
store so I know the problems with traffic in that area. The question
here is that the building is there, and I understand what you are saying.
You know the building is going to be occupied but you want something
that is going to have less traffic than you think this is going to have. I
might be wrong, I am just going from experience, but I find a lot of
neighborhood people walk up and a lot of kids and people go on
bicycles realizing Seven Mile Road, and I agree with you, is a heavily
trafficked road. I don't think it is going to be as bad as you think it will
be. That is my personal opinion. I might be wrong but I think ice
cream parlors are basically used in the evening.
Mr. Mastroberto: Mr. LaPine, do we have any idea how much traffic that would cause?
Mr. LaPine: I have no idea.
Mr. Mastroberto: It takes a lot of people to make a profit.
Mr. LaPine: I understand and the petitioner is not here tonight so we really can't ask
him those questions.
Mr. Alanskas: Are you aware sir it will only be open from March 1 until the middle of
September?
Mr. Mastroberto: It would only be open in the summer.
Audrey Przytulski, 19019 Shadyside: I am the first three lots, 290, 291 and 292 at the
beginning of Shadyside. For the last 2 1/2 years living in that section
with you opening the Pizza Hut delivery and all the businesses that are
along there, it has become a 2 1/2 year nightmare of no privacy and no
peace and quiet in our home. The alleys are lined up with litter from
Joe's Produce. From the meat market we have meat wrappers in our
yard. We have Taco Bell garbage in the alley. Pizza Hut, McDonalds.
14778
Nobody cleans it up but me. I clean by our home every week, all
winter, all summer. We have terrible traffic in the area. They line up
and down Shadyside taking a shortcut through our area because traffic
is so congested with all the businesses along there. We have semi
trucks coming in at all hours of the night. We had to go to the City
Attorney twice now to stop this guy coming into our alley next to our
house because it kept us awake at night. They won't turn the engines
off on the trucks, etc. Having another restaurant in the area when we
have 14 restaurants, bars, pizza parlors all on four corners. It seems
like we really don't need another restaurant making more mess and
more trucks. We have snow plows at night. We have parking lot
cleaners all night long. It is all done in the evening when we are trying
to sleep. It keeps you awake constantly. We have gone to the Police
for help when we had problems with delivery cars speeding through the
neighborhood and using our alley as a racetrack all night long. The
Police come out and we end up being the pests not the people that are
breaking the ordinance. I just feel another restaurant in the area won't
be an asset. It will be more of a burden in the Seven Mile/Farmington
area where we have so much trouble. We have been fighting with the
City and the Police Department and the businesses right next to us for 2
1/2 years. We have no privacy and we have no peace. I have lived in
my home for 13 years and I feel my rights are being violated and I have
no privacy. It is a little hard for me to describe all this but its been
'towreally hard.
Mr. Engeretson: I think you described it very well. I am a little confused as to where
you live.
Mrs. Przytulski: I live exactly behind Pizza Hut and Brentwood Medical Center.
Mr. Engebretson: It sounds like you have had some interesting experiences there.
Mrs. Przytulski: We have had the City help with some of it but the rest of it no one
seems to be able to help us with it. We have asked to have signs put up
where they can't use our street for delivery purposes but we can't.
Mr. Engebretson: Have you approached the Traffic Commission as we suggested to
someone else and you had no relief from them?
Mrs. Przytulski: No. They put up "one way" signs in our alley so they would come in
the alley one way along the side of our house and come out at the front
of our house. That was all they did.
Mr. Engebrtson: I don't understand that.
14779
Mrs. Przytulski: So we have in that alley there speeding cars all night long, semi trucks
and garbage.
Mr. Engebretson: Mr. Shane will you find out when the next Traffic Commission meeting
is. I want to go and look into this myself. I find it amazing that you
find yourself in that position.
Mrs. Przytulski: The City Attorney twice has helped us out. We have gone to the
Mayor and the Police Chief and they stopped the semi's from coming in
at night but they still snuck back in when they could. It is bad enough
with Joe's across the street that we hear that but then we have the
vibrations of our house all the time. Our house is always shaking, or
the boom boxes from the delivery cars are terrible.
Mr. Engebretson: You certainly made your points very well. I would presume the semi's
are going across the street to Joe's.
Mrs. Przytulski: No, they go to Pizza Hut.
Mr. Engebretson: I really appreciate you coming and sharing this information. I would
like to point out to you that the only reason this is being called a
restaurant is that it is a quirk in the way our ordinance is written. We
didn't have any place to deal with places like these, Dairy Queens and
pastry stores, and so technically they are categorized as a restaurant
even when, in fact, they may not serve any food other than frozen
Nor yogurt and ice cream cones. I am not looking for that to be particularly
comforting to you but I do think it is important that you put it in
perspective as an ice cream store not a restaurant. I do think they are
different animals.
Mrs. Przytulski: With the outside dining, that leaves more garbage in the neighborhood
and things like that.
Mr. Engebretson: I wasn't trivializing anything you said. I just wanted you to understand
why this is being called a restaurant.
Mrs. Przytulski: I understand.
Rosalie Allie, 18929 Woodring: I grew up in Livonia and I am currently enjoying being a
co-owner for the past five years on Woodring. It is a very quiet
neighborhood, and when I first moved in most of the neighbors were
out rollerblading in the street, and bike riding and walking their pets,
and that has really decreased in the past two to three summers I noticed
because of the area businesses that have come along, and it seems a
little congested. I agree with my neighbor. I don't want to be
14780
redundant as far as the safety issue of the traffic. It is horrendous. Just
tonight I came home myself and I could not walk across the street to
my mailbox until I waited for four people who were cutting through
from Clarita to Woodring to get to Seven Mile because they didn't
want to wait for the light. I don't think it is a secret. I don't have to
tell people when people cut through they don't normally go the speed
limit. They do not adhere to the 25 miles per hour. I have a young son
that I am raising, and it is getting more and more where we have to be
cautious. I actually am starting to feel as if I live on Seven Mile. I also
would like to express my concern with the fact that the lot there is very
small and I see on the petition here 12 outdoor seats with an umbrella
table, which would therefore even lessen more availability for parking.
I think the parking will overflow onto our street. Our street does not
have sidewalks currently, which means people will be parked right in
front of my home, possibly even on my lot which people do now. It
doesn't seem to bother them. I am afraid of loitering, and I am afraid
of the place becoming a hangout of some sort for neighborhood
teenagers. I am not saying that is necessarily bad or good but when I
bought this home, I bought the home very pleased that it was a very
quiet street, and the nature of this business I am sure will attract high
volume traffic. Dora's Place was a business indeed and it was there,
but the traffic was very low volume. In fact, I didn't realize it was
there. I was more aware of the bank traffic than I was Dora's Place,
and I am fearful it is going to bring a lot of more unwanted traffic. I
am fearful for the safety of the residents as well as the consumer
coming through to enjoy ice cream. I was driving down Seven Mile
just recently on a Saturday and everyone came to a dead stop.
Everyone knows there is a left hand turn lane right there but I am
coming to a dead stop because people are getting confused trying to
get out of the credit union and Joe's, etc. This was Saturday afternoon
about 1:30. I live there. I know what is happening and I am really
concerned. I appreciate the opportunity to speak.
Barb Gearin, 19000 Shadyside: I am the third house from the bank. My big complaint is
we already have too much thru traffic in our area, too many
restaurants, and crime is a concern with me. We were here first and
when businesses come in and break ordinances and we report them, we
turn out being the nuisance. When traveling east on Seven Mile there
are three entrances to Joe's Produce and all the adjacent businesses.
We can't even make a left hand turn from our street. A fast-food
restaurant will only make traffic worse. This neighborhood has
children and the traffic would only increase. People do not turn left on
Seven Mile. They use our side streets, and just last summer my
husband had his truck parked out on the street and there was so much
traffic coming through with cars coming both ways that one truck hit
14781
my husband's mirror and knocked it right off. It is tight. We don't
have sidewalks and we have narrow streets. What kind of traffic are
we to expect from this business? It is going to get worse.
Mr. Engebretson: Unfortunately madam we don't have a clue as to the sales volume or
number of customers because the petitioner is not here.
Ms. Gearin: One more thing I want to bring up. You mentioned to that other lady
that was here about the Traffic Bureau and having a"No Thru Traffic"
sign put up. I tried that, and when I called the police they said
everyone has the right to use the side streets because when my
husband's mirror got hit I called. Nobody told me there was another
committee or organization I could go to and focus on. I would like to
put a dead end street there so people can't come flying through.
Mr. Engebretson: Everyone would like to do that but we would never get anywhere.
Ms. Gearin: I understand you can't.
Mr. Engebretson: I live at the intersection of Clarita and Seven Mile, a little further west.
I understand Seven Mile is a problem and we have to live with it but
there are things we can do to alleviate some of these problems. H, I
want to go further. I want you to ask the Traffic Commission to put
this on the agenda. I want to discuss this issue of local traffic control in
an official manner and try to follow up on some of these concerns here.
`"y I also will take it up with the Mayor.
Ms. Gearin: Thank you very much.
Jayson Nault, 19027 Woodring: I live at the southwest corner of Woodring and Seven
Mile. I haven't seen the site plan but I have seen the size of the site,
and unless they are planning on acquiring some additional property, I
don't see how parking and traffic can be accommodated by this site.
Mr. Engebretson: They can. The staff has determined that.
Mr. Nault: Has there been or will there be a traffic assessment for this project?
Mr. Engebretson: No. We don't have any idea what kind of traffic is going to be
generated, and we are not going anywhere with this tonight. I can tell
you that but we are certainly obligated to listen to all the concerns.
You took the time to come here and we are going to give you the
opportunity to have your say and make your points for the record but
regrettably the petitioner chose not to appear tonight.
14782
Mr. Nault: Does the City of Livonia require a traffic assessment?
yaw Mr. Engebretson: No. If this were an office building with 150,000 sq. ft. there might be a
possibility but this isn't going to have an impact that is going to be
particularly noticeable.
Mr. Nault: Is there a threshold where the City cuts off?
Mr. Engebretson: In the eight or nine years that I have been here we have done a traffic
survey in probably three instances, like Victor Parkway, for example, a
massive office development, and one or two others.
Mr. Shane: I might make the point that any waiver use is sent to the Traffic Bureau
of the Police Department and they are asked to respond to traffic, etc.
and we have a letter in the file which does not have a problem with the
layout of the site other than the fact they made mention of the parking
spaces being too small. They didn't have a problem with the volume of
traffic so we rely on their expertise.
Mr. Nault: So someone has reviewed the traffic and the site.
Mr. Engebretson: The Police Department has. They have reviewed the site from the
standpoint of ordinance compliance but they haven't had the
`tw opportunity to learn how many cars are going to be coming in and out
but the site works relative to the size of the property and the proposal.
Mr. Nault: I guess my concern is nobody has necessarily looked at how many
parking spaces are required.
Mr. Engebrtson: You are saying something else. What I was attempting to convey to
you was that the staff and these other City departments have
determined that for a business of this size, defined by the footprint of
the building and the proposed outdoor seating, that the site does indeed
have the capacity to accommodate the use from the standpoint of
parking for the customers, for employees, etc. That has all been
reviewed. What we haven't reviewed, as you brought up, is how many
cars are going to be coming in and out over a course of some period of
time. We don't know that. The ordinance addresses the parking
requirements based on the size of the building, which kind of dictates
how much capacity they would have to serve the public. People aren't
going to come there by the hundreds or the thousands if they know
they are going to be backed up to Inkster Road. Not to be flip. They
want to drive in, park and get their soft-serve ice cream an go. It is
kind of a self-policing kind of situation, and the ordinance has been
complied with.
14783
Mr. Nault: That is all I am saying. Some of the other soft-serve ice cream places
`„_ in the area, take for example across from City Hall, they get quite a bit
of traffic on a summer's evening, and they have cars overflowing over
adjacent lots, and I guess I have this view of cars being parallel parked
all the way down Woodring.
Mr. Engebretson: I understand your concern. Just so you know we are not taking your
remarks lightly but we have to deal with the ordinance.
Mr. Nault: I understand. I share all of my neighbors' other concerns about
garbage, etc. I understand the site is going to be developed, I just
want to make sure all of the proper steps are being taken to make sure
the site is going to be complied with City ordinances.
Mr. Engebretson: I think it is safe to say that. Each of us here have been to that site to
determine our view of what is being proposed based on information
provided to us, but you and your neighbors have added a new
dimension to this. We will all have an opportunity to go back and
when we do that if we have the opportunity to view some of these
concerns that have been brought up here tonight, I can tell you that not
only will that become part of our issues when we meet again on this but
we will get other departments, such as the Inspection Department,
involved if it is appropriate to do that. We will probably not move on
this tonight. We will probably table this issue and we will bring it up at
another time, some time in the future presuming the petitioner chooses
to come back and pursue the matter.
Mr. Mastroberto: How can we be kept informed on where we are so we can be a part of
this?
Mr. Engebretson: H, when we bring an item back, people that have been given notice in
the past, do we normally give them notice of the meeting?
Mr. Shane: We have their names and we can certainly make certain that they will
be notified.
Mr. Engebretson: Those that spoke will be notified. If there is anyone else here in the
audience or at home watching TV that is interested, call the Planning
Department and get on that list to make sure you are notified as well. I
can tell you we won't take this up for at least two to three weeks.
Mr. Mastroberto: Is there any place else we should go at this time to have our feelings
known?
14784
Mr. Engebretson: This matter is on hold at this point but any of your concerns you have
on these other issues, I wouldn't discourage you from taking those
N..- concerns up with other departments, such as the Inspection
Department, Police Department, Law Department and Mayor's office,
whatever you are comfortable with.
There was no one else present wishing to be heard regarding this item and Mr.
Engebretson, Chairman, declared the Public Hearing on Petition 96-2-2-7 closed.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mr. Alanskas, and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-40-96 RESOLVED that, pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City
Planning Commission on Petition 96-2-2-7 by Carl C. Deal, Jr. requesting
waiver use approval to operate a carry-out restaurant with 12 outdoor patio
seats on property located on the southeast corner of Seven Mile Road and
Woodring Avenue in the Northwest 1/4 of Section 10, the City Planning
Commission does hereby determine to table Petition 96-2-2-7 until April 2,
1996.
RESOLVED that, notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with
the provisions of Section 19.05 of Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Engebretson: H, would you advise the petitioner that we have tabled this item and
would you also advise him of the strong public opposition to his
proposal, public being the immediate neighbors, so he understands, and
anything you can do in your capacity to address any of these other
issues that were brought up here tonight I am sure would be
appreciated.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, announced that the public hearing portion of the meeting is
concluded and the Commission would proceed with items pending before it.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is the approval of the
minutes of the 719th Regular Meeting& Public Hearings held by on February 13,
1996.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
14785
#3-41-96 RESOLVED that, the minutes of the 719th Regular Meeting & Public
Hearings held by the City Planning Commission on February 13, 1996 are
r.. approved.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is approval of the
minutes of the 720th Regular Meeting held on February 27, 1996.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine and seconded by Mrs. Blomberg, it was
#3-42-96 RESOLVED that, the minutes of the 720th Regular Meeting held by the City
Planning Commission on February 27, 1996 are approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Alanskas, Blomberg, LaPine, Engebretson
NAYS: None
ABSENT: McCann, Morrow
ABSTAIN: Piercecchi
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Petition 96-2-8-2 by
Harley Ellington Designs, on behalf of Valassis Communications, requesting
approval for all plans required by Section 18.47 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in
connection with a proposal to construct an office building on property located at
19575 Victor Parkway in the North 1/2 of Section 6.
Mr. Miller: This area is located on the west side of Victor Parkway across the
street from Pembroke. This proposal is immediately north of the
Embassy Suites Hotel. It is 17.77 acres in size. The building will set
approximately at the northwest corner of the property and face towards
the southeast corner of the property. There is also shown here an
outlot that is approximately 4.53 acres in size. The parking lot will be
divided in two areas and will be between the building and the outlot.
The building will be three stories in height and 105,000 square feet in
size. Parking for the facility, they need 450 parking spaces. The site
plan shows 451 so they meet the parking requirements. Other than that
I was told today they have revised elevation plans.
14786
Mr. Engebretson: The outlot appears to be about one third of the property. Mr. Shane
any comments to make on this proposal before the petitioner comes
forward?
Mr. Shane: We don't have any additional information for you from the time you
met on this last week except the petitioner has provided some
additional elevation plans.
Paul Urbanek: I am from the architect firm, Harley Ellington Designs. Primarily from
our study session the plan of the building and the site has not changed
really at all from what we have seen before. The building is a 105,000
gross sq. ft. building, three stories in height, roughly 35,000 square
feet at the floor. It sets at the northwest corner of the site. We are
trying very hard to maintain the beauty of the natural woods on the site
as much as possible. We have to park roughly 450 cars on the site so
we will have to take down some trees. What we have done though is
to try to push the building slightly north on the property to preserve the
natural state as much as possible. We don't plan on building there. We
don't plan on doing anything there just leave it as a natural preserve.
Hopefully, the site to the north of that will continue that process so that
natural preserve can be maintained in this office park. It is one of the
most beautiful sites in Livonia that is undeveloped, and we are trying to
use that for as much of the beauty as we possibly can. The building will
Now be all red brick. (He presented the elevation plans) The roof will hide
the mechanical equipment.
Mr. LaPine: Is a representative here from Valassis this evening? How many
employees are you going to have working at this location?
Mitch Lowery, Corporate Purchasing Agent for Valassis: Approximately 350.
Mr. LaPine: So the 450 parking spaces would take into consideration vendors and
other people coming in?
Mr. Lowery: Right.
Mr. LaPine: I asked this question the other day, but I just want to get it on the
record. You are purchasing the property, including the outlot, and then
you have a lease-back agreement with Mr. Johnson. Is this correct?
Mr. Lowery: We are in a purchase agreement with Mr. Johnson for the land. We are
simultaneously working on the finance package. Ultimately there will
be another owner of this project that we will lease the entire project
back from. It will not be Dave Johnson.
14787
Mr. LaPine: I have a problem with the outlot because that leaves a lot that can be
developed. I think Mr. Johnson told us that he would have control of
�.. that outlot. Is that correct?
Mr. Lowery: That is correct.
Mr. LaPine: Which means he could sell that off, with your approval I assume or
whoever owns the property, and put another building on that location,
possibly a restaurant, which worries me. You don't have any veto
power over what goes on that outlot. Is that correct?
Mr. Lowery: That is correct. Our understanding is it is still zoned office and our
assumption would be if anything goes there, it would be an office
building.
Mr. LaPine: Don't assume anything. I want to commend you for staying in Livonia.
I want to commend you for this location. I think you have a beautiful
location. I really like the idea you are going to leave all the natural
growth. The outlot area and the areas you are going to leave in their
natural state, they are not going to be landscaped, they are going to be
left the way they are except for the additional landscaping you are
putting in on your parking lot and around the building. Is that correct?
— Mr. Lowery: That is correct.
Mr. LaPine: Nothing has changed with the color of the brick?
Mr. Urbanek: We have added a little banding accent.
Mr. LaPine: But it is basically brick and glass as I understand it.
Mr. Urbanek: Correct.
Mr. Alanskas: With regard to the landscaping, I imagine that will all be with
underground sprinklers?
Mr. Lowery: Yes.
Mr. Engebretson: I am surprised you are not more concerned about that oulot.
Mr. Lowery: Well we are concerned. In fact, we had a meeting yesterday morning
with our executive team and we talked about that. We feel with the
property we will retain control over, we have enough green space with
enough sanctuary, if you will, and enough buffer zone that if an office
14788
building will go in there, we feel we have this buffer there and can live
with that.
*t` Mr. Engebretson: The reason I am concerned is if you go one quarter of a mile south of
this property, envision that restaurant on that outlot, and what it would
do to this building.
Mr. Lowery: Believe me we have thought about and talked about it. The bottom line
is we are taking more land than we really need for our building but the
reason we are doing it is again we want the natural feel that property
brings us. Most people would say we are probably crazy for putting
that much money into the land but to us it is real positive. We can't
quite make the stretch to take another 4 1/2 acres simply for that
purpose. We would love to be able to do it but it is hard to make that
leap.
Mr. Engebretson: We understand that but I guess I am trying to advise you that things
change. I am still concerned about what exists 1/4th of a mile to the
south. What you are proposing here is a magnificent building and a
magnificent site and I can't picture the damage that would occur to you
if something landed on that outlot as ugly as what we have down the
street. It is the worst example of construction in the City of Livonia. It
radiates neon light for miles. It lights up the neighborhood of
Newburgh Road. I can see it from Curtis and Levan. It is something
that is between you and the property owner I guess but while you still
have some bargaining power, I would sure recommend that you buy
yourself all the safety that you can because stranger things have
happened. With regard to what you are proposing I want to tell you I
am most pleased with this move and this magnificent building and we
are so happy you are staying in Livonia.
Mr. Lowery: Thank you. We are excited about it ourselves and glad to be able to
stay in Livonia.
Mr. Engebretson: Does the architect wish to add anything?
Mr. Urbanek: We do want to ask for a waiver of the seven day period.
Mr. Engebretson: We will be happy to accommodate you I think.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mr. Alanskas and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-43-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Petition 96-2-8-2 by Harley Ellington Designs, on behalf
14789
of Valassis Communications, requesting approval for all plans required by
Section 18.47 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
'4141. construct an office building on property located at 19575 Victor Parkway in
the North 1/2 of Section 6, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the Site Plan marked sheet SPA-1 dated March 12, 1996 prepared by
Harley Ellington Design, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
2) That the Building Elevation Plan marked Sheet SPA-3 dated March 12,
1996 prepared by Harley Ellington Design, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to;
3) That the petitioner the shall meet to Fire Department's satisfaction the
following requirements as specified in the correspondence from the Fire
Marshal dated March 4, 1996:
That on-site hydrants shall be provided on the north and south sides
of the building. Further, if an automatic sprinkler system is
installed, the FDC (fire department connection) shall be located
between 50 ft. and 100 ft. from a hydrant.
4) That a fully detailed Landscape Plan shall be submitted to the Planning
Commission and City Council for their review and approval.
`"" Mr. Engebretson: I would just like to say this is a major proposal and we have spent a
very short time discussing it but I think it is important that everyone
understands this proposal has been the subject of significant, in-depth,
discussions with various City departments and City officials, and
because of that it is possible for us to deal with this in an almost
mechanical manner tonight because all the details have been worked
out. Typically in a project of this size we would spend an hour or more
and probably do it over two to three meetings, an hour or more each
meeting. But just so people understand we are not dealing with this in
a casual manner, we are able to do this because of all the good effort
made on the part of so many which brought us to this point here
tonight.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mr. LaPine and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-44-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
waive the provisions of Section 10 of Article VI of the Planning
14790
Commission Rules of Procedure regarding the seven day period concerning
effectiveness of Planning Commission resolutions in connection with
,00. Petition 96-2-8-2 by Harley Ellington Designs, on behalf of Valassis
Communications, requesting approval for all plans required by Section
18.47 of Zoning Ordinance #543 in connection with a proposal to
construct an office building on property located at 19575 Victor Parkway
in the North 1/2 of Section 6.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Sign Permit
Application by Johnson Sign Company, on behalf of Mission Health Medical
Center, requesting approval for signage for the property located at 37595 Seven
Mile Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 7.
Mr. Miller: This property is located on the southwest corner of Seven Mile and
Newburgh. It is under construction now for a Providence Hospital
Medical Center. They are allowed two ground signs on this site
because the street frontage along Seven Mile and along Newburgh is
over 200 feet. They are allowed 30 sq. ft. at 6 ft. high. They are
proposing 30 sq. ft. at 8 ft. high so it is in excess of the height allowed.
Because of that they had to go to the Zoning Board to get a variance,
which they have, so by virtue of the variance it is a conforming sign
— package.
Mr. Engebretson: I presume this is the petitioner.
Jay Johnson: I am with Johnson Sign Company out of Jackson. Mr. Peter Karadjoff
who was here from Mission Health for your study meeting, I want to
apologize for him. He was unable to come tonight because he is in
Chicago. I don't know if you want to address any questions to me. I
know Peter mentioned you had some questions on the lighting of the
sign.
Mr. Engebretson: It was the lighting and hours of illumination.
Mr. Johnson: The first issue in regard to the lighting issue, as you can see in the sign
there the only area that is going to be lit is the white copy. This is
considered a routed out aluminum sign so the face, which is the purple,
is actually routed out and is backed with white plastic. So the only
thing that lights up is the white that you see. It is somewhat of a
subdued lighting in that respect. He did have me check into three
locations that are currently urgent care, one in Canton, one in Plymouth
and one in Ann Arbor. The one in Canton is controlled by a photo-cell
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that is on whenever it is dark, and the other two are controlled by
timers. I was unable to get the exact times when they were shut off
`441` Mr. Engebretson: There was some concern that if someone is in trouble coming off that
freeway and they see "Urgent Care" for a facility that is closed, it
probably does a disservice, even though I understand your client would
put a notice on the front door as to where they might go, but I think it
is a legitimate concern, and to have that sign illuminated after hours
may serve the public poorly because it doesn't provide an advantage to
anyone and it may provide a disadvantage. Do you have a position on
that?
Mr. Johnson: The only thing they mentioned to me was that after they closed usually
all the lights in the facility are on and the staff is still there for maybe
two hours after it is closed. What they are concerned with is if they
don't have the sign on, which has the hours stated, hopefully they will
be able to catch that at the entrance before they come up to the facility
because the whole complex will be lit up still and as you can see the
building has good visibility. I don't know if there is a way we can put
a condition on it if you feel it needs to be off at a certain time after they
are closed, but that was what their feeling was.
Mr. Engebretson: That is understandable. Anything you want to add sir?
Mr. Johnson: The only other thing, I guess maybe I was at neglect not knowing what
Livonia's procedure was since they are in a control zone. They are
opening April 15 and what we are hoping we can do is also get a
waiver of that seven days. I talked to Joe Laura of the City Council
and he said we could get on the March 18 meeting of the City Council
Mr. Engebretson: That is a piece of information I wasn't expecting to get tonight but I
was curious to know the opening date.
Mr. Johnson: I think the first floor and second floor is the 15th, and the third floor is
the 22nd.
Mr. LaPine: Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman last week told us the doctors from
the Eight Mile/Farmington facility are moving on the 15th to the
second floor. The rest is opening I think a month later.
Mr. Johnson: It kind of puts us trying to meet that time frame.
Mr. Engebretson: We understand that.
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Mr. LaPine: I really don't have any objection with the sign if they want to leave it
on all night because the only thing they are actually going to see is that
`rawwhite lighting and I don't think that is going to cause any problem. I
have no objection if the other members feel it should go off at midnight.
I have no big hang-up but I don't think leaving it on is going to cause
any big hardship on anybody.
Mr. Johnson: It is a subdued type of lighting.
Mr. Engebretson: I am not really objecting to it in principle. I am just concerned
someone would come off that freeway with a problem and see"Urgent
Care" and think they solved their problem, and it isn't solved.
Mr. Piercecchi: I share your concern about someone thinking there is a facility open for
emergency care and it is closed. I think our standard procedure on
most of these signs is one hour after they close the facility that the
lights go off.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Piercecchi, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-45-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Sign Permit Application by Johnson Sign Company, on
behalf of Mission Health Medical Center, requesting approval for signage for
the property located at 37595 Seven Mile Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section
7, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the Sign Package by Johnson Sign Company, as received by the
Planning Commission on February 26, 1996, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to;
2) That all signage shall not be illuminated beyond one hour after the medical
facility closes.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made by Mr. Alanskas, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-46-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby determine to
waive the provisions of Section 10 of Article VI of the Planning Commission
Rules of Procedure regarding the seven day period concerning effectiveness of
Planning Commission resolutions in connection with Sign Permit Application
by Johnson Sign company, on behalf of Mission Health Medical Center,
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requesting approval for signage for the property located at 37595 Seven Mile
Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 7.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
Mr. Johnson: I just want to compliment how the staff works within your municipality,
Ron Stanow and Mr. Miller. I go to a lot of municipalities and a lot of
them are not cooperative. These people return calls and are very
helpful, and being in business with employees I know my guys never
hear compliments. You only hear the negative things, and they have
been very cooperative.
Mr. Engebretson: We appreciate you making that comment. We will pass that along to
the other department.
Mr. Alanskas, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda is Sign Permit
Application by Planet Neon Sign Company, on behalf of Joe's Produce,
requesting approval for a ground sign for the property located at 33152 Seven
Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section 3.
Mr. Miller: This site is located on the north side of Seven Mile west of Farmington.
They are proposing to reface the sign panels and enclose the pole of the
existing sign. The existing sign is located off the drive on Shadyside on
.*'" the left hand side as you drive in. Because the sign is 40 sq. ft. in area
and 19 feet in height, it is a nonconforming sign. They are not allowed
to have a nonconforming sign so they had to go to the Zoning Board to
get approval, which they did. Based on that variance this is a
conforming sign package so they are proposing to reface the sign
panels and enclose the base with either a stucco or a dryvet type of
material.
Mr. Engebretson: This looks like a definite improvement to the sign that exists but I am
concerned about the standards that we have dealt with in years past to
get rid of these pylon signs and get down to low-profile monument
signs. This doesn't seem to follow the same pattern that we have done
in the past. Is there a particular reason or logic that you are aware of?
Mr. Shane: The sign which is being redone is a legal nonconforming sign and I
think had they been forced to perhaps remove it, they probably would
have done nothing, so I think the prudent thing here was done and that
is to go to the zoning Board of Appeals to reface a nonconforming
sign. Of course our preference would be for the sign to come down
and a conforming sign to go up. They are trying to make it better.
There is precedent for that.
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Mr. Engebretson: I understand that. This definitely is better than what exists so it is
.. definitely a step in the right direction but I was just curious.
Mr. Shane: I think it is much easier to deal with it when there is a change in the
ownership. When another facility comes in, that is the time to tackle
something like that. Then it is usually more successful.
On a motion duly made by Mr. LaPine, seconded by Mrs. Blomberg and unanimously
approved, it was
#3-47-96 RESOLVED that, the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Sign Permit Application by Planet Neon Sign Company,
on behalf of Joe's Produce, requesting approval for a ground sign for the
property located at 33152 Seven Mile Road in the Southwest 1/4 of Section
3, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1) That the Sign Package by Planet Neon Sign Company, as received by the
Planning Commission on March 4, 1996, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to.
as well as subject to the following additional conditions required by the
Zoning Board of Appeals:
1) Although the signage is obstructed by trees when traveling westbound on
Seven Mile, these trees are part of the site plan originally approved by the
Planning Commission and City Council and therefore, are not to be cut;
2) The sign is to be protected from vehicular impact by erecting a barrier
around the base.
Mr. Engebretson, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 721st Regular Meeting
&Public Hearings held on March 12, 1996 was adjourned at 10:30 p.m.
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
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