HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2008-07-22MINUTES OF THE 9W PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA
On Tuesday, July 22, 2008, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia
held its 966" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall,
33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. John Walsh, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m.
Members present: Deborah McDermott R. Lee Morrow Lynda Schneel
Carol Smiley Ian Wilshaw Ashley Varloogian
John Walsh
Members absent: None
Messrs. Mark Taormina, Planning Director; At Nowak, Planner IV; and Ms. Marge
Watson, Program Supervisor; were also present.
Chairman Walsh informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the
City Council who, in tum, will hold its own public hearing and make the final
determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning
Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or
vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City
Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If
a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the
petitioner has len days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City
Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become
effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission
and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their fling.
The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying
resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the
outcome of the proceedings tonight. I have one quick announcement. For
anyone that is in the audience on Item #4, which is the T -Mobile Central L.L.C.
request for waiver use to construct a cell lower, that has been withdrawn from the
agenda this evening. If you are here for Item #4, we will not be considering that
item this evening.
ITEM#1 PETITION 2008-06-01-03 WEST BAY
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2008-06-
01-03 submitted by West Bay Exploration requesting to rezone
a portion of the property at 19860 Haggerty Road, located east
of Haggerty Road and adjacent to the -275 Expressway
July 22, 2008
24842
between Seven Mile Road and Eight Mile Road in the
Southwest % of Section 6, from PO II to C-4 II.
Mr. Taormina
presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak:
There are two items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated July 3, 2008, which reads as
follows: 9n accordance with your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above- eferenced petition. We have
no objection to the proposal petition. There are no additional
right -0f -way requirements for this site. The address of the
northern site has been established as 19540 Haggerty Road.
The descriptions for the proposed splits are correct except for
the following: (a) The bearing and distance from the West
Section line to the Point of Beginning of Parcel A is incorrect on
the sketch of survey. (b) The fourth line of the legal description
of Parcel B should read as follows. S.88047'02"E. 908.29 feet,'
thence S.00 32'50"E., 171.20 feet to the Point of Beginning,
etc." The letter is signed by Robert J. Schron, P.E. for the City
of Livonia Engineering Division. The second letter is from Gary
M. Bloom, P.C., dated July 8, 2008, which reads as follows: As
the owner of the historic home located at the above address, 1
completely support the above petition by Livonia's Hospitality
Suites and urge the Planning Commission to grant the petition."
The letter is signed by Gary M. Bloom, 39040 West Seven Mile
Road, Livonia, Michigan. That is the extent of the
correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions for the Planning Department before we
proceed to the petitioner?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Taormina, do we have any existing hotels, to your
knowledge, that are seven or eight stories in height in this city?
Mr. Taormina:
I'm not aware of any. I'm trying to think of what the height of the
Embassy Suites is. The others, I think they're generally in the
five to six story category, in that range.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Would that go for the office buildings as well that you can think
Of.?
Mr. Taormina:
We do have some nine story buildings. There are office
buildings up to 12 stories within the limits of the city. McNamara
July 22, 2008
24843
Towers is nine stones in height, and I think Brashear Towers is
of a similar height.
Unidentified audience member: We can't hear you.
Mr. Walsh:
We'll do our best to speak into our microphones, sir, and
perhaps Channel 8 might be able to boost our volume a bit. Are
there any other questions for the Planning Department? Seeing
none, we will proceed to the petitioner. Sir, if we could please
have your name and address for the record.
Frank Jonna, 26100 American Drive, Southfield, Michigan 48034. On behalf of
the Jonna Companies representing West Bay Exploration. Mr.
Taormina has done a fabulous job describing this project and
our proposal here, so I'm available for any questions if there are
any.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. Are there any questions for Mr. Jonna?
Mrs. McDermott:
I have a question. I'm curious if we know why the Holiday Inn
left previously from the Six Mile and 275 area and why they're
now interested in coming back.
Mr. Jonna:
My limited knowledge of the hospitality industry is that the flags
or the franchise is awarded for a certain number of years. And
then at some point, that's reevaluated and there are typically
upgrades that may be required from time to time from different
flags, whether it's Hilton, Radisson, Holiday Inn, and the
concepts change. What we've seen is a significant boost or
activity in the hotel business and hospitality industry for
providing more efficient product. A lot of the product being built
today is more of the limited service type of product. This is a full
service hotel. It will have a restaurant, some limited banquet
space, but it will not be the nature of a property that would only
have, for example, very limited breakfast with no other
amenities. So there's a pool, a business center, all of the
amenities that would typically be provided in a full service hotel.
That's, I think, a trend in the industry. They may not have been
able to upgrade that facility to achieve those results. So starting
from the ground up may be more prudent.
Mrs. McDermott
Okay. And then also, would the closest full serve hotel then in a
Holiday Inn franchise would you think be in Farmington Hills?
Mr. Jonna:
There is a full serve property in, yes, Farmington Hills in the
Grand River/M-5 area.
Mrs. McDermott
All right. Thank you.
July 22, 2008
24844
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Ms. Vartoogian:
I just have one question. I was wondering if you see any
potential conflict between your proposed zoning classification
and the oil wells adjacent to that properly and the other
surrounding uses?
Mr. Jorma :
As far as the surrounding uses, we think this is a great mixed
use fl. The hotel occupancy is driven by a couple of sources.
One is the convenience and visibility. The other is the
reservation network and because the property or the flag was
previously in this city in this market, they've lost that reservation.
So having that properly is another reason that we feel it will be
verysuccessful. The strong office market also is a great feeder
to the hotel. Also, even with a full serve hotel, the amenities
that surround it from a retail perspective, the theater, the
restaurants, the convenience to restaurants, we think is a great
ft, and I think you're aware there's an Amerisuiles Hotel that we
developed as part of the Pentagon process. That's now
become a high place. So we think it's a very, very strong
hospitality market and a good fit for this project.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Any additional questions?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Jonna, the issue before us today is one of zoning so I don't
want to ask too many questions about the development for the
proposed potential development because really what we have to
deal with is a zoning issue and is it appropriate zoning. The
existing properties around this particular location, including your
own, which contains the Hyatt Place hotel that we just spoke of,
I sort of did an informal look around at some of these hotels,
and Mr. Taormina just gave some additional information. The
Embassy Suites across 275 is five stories. The Hyatt Place on
your property is six stories. The Marriott at Six and 275, it's
probably the next highest hotel I can think of in the area, that's
six stories. Do you feel that you need to have a seven story
hotel at this location?
Mr. Walsh:
Mr. Wilshaw and Mr. Jorma, I'm going to permit the answer to
this question, but that is site planning. So after he explains, I'm
going to move on to zoning.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Sure.
July 22, 2008
24845
Mr. Jonna: The site, as you can see, is a very unusually shaped site and
one of the most important things for us is to make sure that the
views from the hotel guest rooms are as nice as possible. So
we're looking an orienting a property fiat will fit on the site,
provide the adequate number of rooms that the Holiday Inn is
looking for, and yet not have residents looking into the oil well
area, which is a bit of a challenge. Just from a scale
perspective also, in terms oflhe existing zoning, you could build
an office building that would be much taller than a hotel
proposed in this zoning. Office floor -lo -floor is typically about 13
fool 6. If you built an office building on this site, it might reach
easily 80 feel. I don't even believe there's a height restriction.
So you actually could gel a six -story office that would be taller. I
think what we're looking at now is trying to squeeze our floor -lo -
floor and hospitality. Typically you fighten it down as much as
possible because you doral need the space in the guest room.
So we envision a properly that would be more in the 80 fool
range. We feel that its really not a significant variance from the
existing zoning. A different use, of course, but in terms of the
scale and how it would fit on the properly, we feel it still should
be within the intent of the original zoning.
Mr. Wilshaw:
The reason I ask the question is not specific to Holiday Inn or
any proposed building. Again, its a general question about the
types of buildings that would be permitted under the zoning that
you're requesting. For me, looking at this property as I went out
to the site, it's probably one of the highest points in Wayne
County right now. It has tremendous views from the ground
level, and for me to envision a six, seven, eight story building on
that properly as I look down onto 275, it seems like it would be
rather imposing. That's the issue I'm grappling with when I look
at this zoning request, is the height of any building which may
go on it and how ifs going to fit into the rest of the area. I just
don't see any other buildings that are adjacent to it, either north
or south, other than the Hyatt Place, that really would be similar.
Mr. Jonna:
I'm sure we'll gel into this further in site plan.
Mr. Walsh:
Sure.
Mr. Jonna:
And look at your concerns and see what we can do to address
them.
Mr. Wilshaw:
But you think at this point you need this particular zoning of C-4
II to make this property viable?
Mr. Jonna:
Based on our preliminary evaluation of the site and the
prototype and the amenities that we have to include within that
July 22, 2008
24846
prototype, yes. I think the hotel operator would actually prefer
something shorter, but I don't believe we can achieve his
mandate without going to this height.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions or comments? Seeing none,
Mr. Jonna, thank you.
Mr. Jonna:
Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Al this point, we will go out to the audience. Is there anybody in
the audience that wishes to speak for or against this petition?
Would you please step to a microphone? We will need your
name and your address.
Ivan Meyelle,
18811 Foch. My main question is, the traffic hazards existing
around that proposed area right now is horrendous, generally
most of the day long. Now you're going to add another seven
stories of hotel rooms full of guests and sluff, which the
infrastructure just cant support it right now. I dont know if there
are any plans to improve the infrastructure around there as far
as the highway. Anybody knows who drives that area, you can
spend an hour trying to gel through that light there. This is just
going to increase the problem that we're having already there.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Is there anybody else in the
audience wishing to speak? Seeing no one coming forward, the
public hearing is closed. Al this point, unless there is additional
questions or comments from the Planning Commission, a
motion would be in order.
On a motion by Morrow, seconded by Smiley, and adopted, ilwas
#0738-2008
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on July 22, 2008, on
Petition 2008-06-01-03 submitted by West Bay Exploration
requesting to rezone a portion of the property at 19860
Haggerty Road, located east of Haggerty Road and adjacent to
the -275 Expressway between Seven Mile Road and Eight Mile
Road in the Southwest % of Section 6, from PO 11 to C4 11, the
Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City
Council that Petition 2008-06-01-03 be approved for the
following reasons:
1. That the proposed change of zoning would be consistent
with the type of development that has occurred along the -
96/-275 Freeway corridor;
July 22, 2008
24847
2. That the proposed change of zoning would be compatible
to and in harmony with the surrounding zoning and land
uses in the area;
3. That the proposed change of zoning would be consistent
with the City's development policies for the Freeway
corridor;
4. That the proposed change of zoning wuld be consistent
with the spirit of the Future Land Use Plan as it relates to
the Freeway corridor and vicinity; and
5. That the proposed change of zoning would provide for
uses which are consistent with the location of the properly
near a major freeway interchange.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw: I'm going to make one quick comment that the motion as it's
been presented talks about the Future Land Use Plan. As far
as I can tell, the Future Land Use Plan designates this area as
office use. I do still have concerns about the height of the
building that could potentially go on this property with this
zoning. I would feel more comfortable with C-0 zoning which
would restrict it to a slightly lower height. For that reason, I am
going to vole against it.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. Any additional comments? Seeing none, would the
secretary please call the roll?
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Morrow, Smiley, Scheel, Vartoogian, Walsh
NAYES:
McDermott, Wilshaw
ABSTAIN:
None
ABSENT:
None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
July 22, 2008
24848
ITEM #2 PETITION 2008-05-02-76 CVS PHARMACY
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petton 2008-
05-02-16 submitted by CVS/pharmacy requestng waiver use
approval to operate SDD and SDM liquor licenses at 37340 Five
Mile Road, located on the north side of Five Mile Road between
Newburgh Road and Fitzgerald Street in the Southwest''/. of
Section 17.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing
zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated June 10, 2008, which reads as
follows: 'Pursuant to your request, the Engineering Division has
reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objection
to the proposed petition. There are no additional right-of-way
requirements for this site. The address of 37340 Five Mile Road
has been assigned to the CVS store." The letter is signed by
Robert J. Schron, P.E. on behalf of the City. The second letter
is from the Inspection Department, dated July 8, 2008, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of June 4, 2008, the
above-referenced petition has been reviewed. The following is
noted. (1) The petitioner is located closer than 500 feet horn an
existing SDM license and 1,000 feet from an existing SDD
license. A waiver from Council would be required to maintain
this deficiency. This Department has no further objections to
this petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Senior
Building Inspector. The next letter is from the Associated Food
& Petroleum Dealers, Inc., dated July 15, 2008, which reads as
follows: 'We are supplying this letter of support on behalf of our
member Jason Yono with respect to the above matter.
Investigation of this matter has identified a number of critical
facts which support Mr. Mono's (owner of Bottles & Stuff 11)
opposition of the pending SDD application of CVS. We have
found that there are two liquor licenses within the mile of Mr.
Mono's business. These other businesses are Aloha Party Store
and Rite Aid, and both possess liquor licenses. If the pending
application of CVS were to be approved, this would constitute
four licensees within this mile. Aloha Party store just recently
received its liquor license this year and is located only 0.6 of a
mile away. This new liquor licensee is hurting Mr. Mono's
business and his sales are down over 10% year-b-date since
Aloha was approved for a license earlier this year. CVS
regularly advertises the same items carried at Mr. Mono's
business, and this advertising will definitely further hurt his
July 22, 2008
24849
business. CVS is only 225 feet away. Additionally, Whin one
mile of Mr. Mono's business is a Walgreens, (which just opened
last yeaO, and a Rite Aid with beer, wine and liquor and now the
CVS is intending to sell liquor. These stores are all open 24
hours, further competing with Mr. Mono's family business, which
cannot maintain such hours. In addition to the 10°% business
loss he has suffered, Mr. Yono projects another 510°% loss
once CVS opens for business. If CVS were to get an approved
SDD license, this will add to the growing losses suffered by Mr.
Yono and he questions whether he will be able to survive this
loss. This is their family's sole source of income and he is
worried and concerned about its profitability with all the
licensees opening in the area. Approval of the CVS SDD
application does not help the State financially. The State will not
obtain any new revenue from this transfer. It will only serve to
bring Mr. Mono's sales down, force his family out of business or
sell the store. Mr. Yono has spent $200,000 in inventory and
building improvements in order to make his store an inviting
destination for customers. In fact, this has helped the other
businesses in his shopping strip by bringing in additional traffic.
If Mr. Yono is forced to leave, the rest of the center will be
greatly affected because of the traffic brought in by his
business. The City of Livonia and the State are likely to lose out
on more taxes because more businesses in this strip mall would
close. Mr. Yono believes that the State's revenues will plunge
from this transfer, rather than increase in anyway. CVS is only
225 feet from Mr. Mono's business. This area is already well
served by many other licensees. Mr. Yono carries a variety of
liquors with easy access off Five Mile and Newburgh. The
population has decreased in the last two years, and this fact
cannot justify adding two liquor licenses within a six-month
period 0.6 of a mile and 225 feet from Mr. Mono's business. Mr.
Mono's business has a great reputation with the city. They are
very community service oriented and have made numerous
donations to support the local schools and local kids teams. He
has been in business for over 10 years and should not be
placed in a situation, which would jeopardize his investment and
hard work. 1 urge the Commission to deny the pending license
transfer to the CVS store." The letter is signed by Jane Shallal,
President. That is the extent of the conespondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, we will go
to the petitioner. Is there anyone here on behalf of the
petitioner? Good evening.
Dave Nyquisl, Project Manager for CVS Pharmacy, 7506 Capri Drive, Canton,
Michigan 48197. Good evening. We would like to be able to
transfer the SDD license over to the new store. If we could not
July 22, 2008
24850
get that, then certainly we would like to have our SDM license
for the beer and wine to be able to be transferred over from the
store that was at Five Mile and Levan so that we can continue to
sell alcohol at that store. As far as the lockup cases go, they
require a key to be opened and that key, once the door is
opened, cannot be removed. So you need the key to be able to
open the door. So somebody couldn't just come and pop the
door open. It will be locked all the time. There will be a wireless
doorbell for customers to ring so they can alert the people that
somebody wants to purchase alcohol, but it will be under lock
and key at all times.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. Thank you. Are there questions?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Just one brief question. Looking at the site plan that shows the
interior layout of your building, it appears the circle area which
indicates where the liquor cabinet is going to be is right next to
the American Greetings cards. Is that correct?
Mr. Nyquisl:
No. The liquor is right in front of the store across from where
the cash registers are at this point, and it's candy there, and
then fight directly behind that is where the liquor and wine would
be. The American Greetings is more in the center of the store.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. I thought the circled area fiat's indicated was telling me
that's where it's going to be.
Mr. Nyquist
That's actually signage.
Mr.Wilshaw:
Oh. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Any additional questions?
Mr. Morrow:
Sir, perhaps you can answer the question. As you just heard,
you had an operator across the street, Bottles and Sluff. This is
what I hear - that these party stores have a wide variety of the
various liquors and those types of things. Can you speak to the
selection this CVS Pharmacy would have to offer?
Mr. Nyquisl:
Normally, our variety is a much more limited variety. We carry
the best sellers. All the exotic things that typically a party store
would carry, we do not carry. We look to more of the volume
items so we can obviously gel turns on the liquor. So we key in
on those items and have expanded facings on those and not so
much on the other items that typically a party store would carry.
July 22, 2008
24851
Mr. Morrow:
One other question. As far as the servicing of the customer
relative to the locked cases, what is the wait lime? Is that a
problem?
Mr. Nyquist:
No. The wireless bell would go out over the intercom system at
the store so the customer would be served quickly. We typically
used to have a counter and just because of the nature of
business nowadays, we have to scale back the amount of hours
that you have, so it became hard to be able to staff another
additional counter. So we went to these lockup cases.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions for the petitioner? Seeing
none, thank you, Mr. Nyquist. Is there anybody in the audience
that wishes to speak for or against this petition? If so, would
you please step forward to one of our podiums? Good evening.
Brandon Yono,
representing Bottles and Sluff Party Store, 15365 Newburgh
Road. I would like to start by thanking the members for hearing
us today and also apologize. I'm a little bit nervous. I'm not
used to speaking in front of this many people on television. I'm
joined here today by my brother, Jason, co-owner of Bottles and
Stuff. We're here to oppose this CVS Pharmacy from selling
liquor and beer. We have been proud owners of that store for
over 10 years, and a store that has been serving the community
for over 30 years. We think it would greatly affect our business
and not be beneficial to our surrounding community if this
motion is passed. The business at our store has been down
this year. We believe that is due to two reasons. One is poor
economic conditions right now in the stale, and the other is that
the Aloha Party Store received liquor less than six or seven
months ago; they started selling it. Since then, our business
has been down between 8 and 10 percent. And if a store less
than .6 miles away can affect our business 8 to 10 percent,
imagine what a big box store like CVS could do at less than 250
feet away from our front door. We're very proud to serve our
community. We love Livonia. Its a great city. And we've put a
lot of time, hard earned money and effort into beautifying our
store, constantly making improvements to our store to better
serve our customers. Over the years, we've employed over 100
residents of Livonia and made many charitable donations to the
city and the community. Just to name a few, the Livonia
Stevenson High School All Night Party, Livonia Hockey
Association, the Fairway Swim Club, Angel's Place, the Livonia
YMCA, the Livonia Churchill Wrestling and many others. We're
proud of our success there, and we feel it's an obligation to give
back to our community. One major thing thalwe found was that
July 22, 2008
24852
CVS is a pharmacy. Their main source of income comes from
drugs and other related products, not from beer and wine and
liquor. They don't need a liquor license in order to survive and
make a profit. They proved that by surviving at their location for
maybe over eight years at the Five and Levan Store. So they
were able to do it there; they should be able to do it here.
When the CVS relocation was proposed, we were not against it.
We knew that certain aspects of our business would be
affected. Obviously, they sell candy. We sell candy. We sell a
small assortment of groceries. So do they, but we were happy
that other things were coming into our area with the loss of
Farmer Jack. We saw a decrease in traffic. I personally gel my
prescriptions filled at CVS. Its a pharmacy. It's not a liquor
store. That's our biggest problem. Just nearly about 50 percent
of our business is liquor sales, and it is a family -run business.
We need it in order to survive. They don't. Its our sob source
of income for myself, my brother and my father. And we feel
that it can be detrimental to our success if that should happen -
nol only to our success, but the other people in our sopping
center. There's already a few vacancies in our shopping center.
We share it with Cottage Pizza and also the New Five Auto
Parts Store. We bring a lot of traffic to them and a lot of visibility
to them through our fool traffic, and we feel that it can adversely
affect them. It was mentioned earlier in the proposal about the
liquor establishment not being able to open within a certain
distance of another one. There is a loophole in the state.
That's how it got approved. If it's divided by a four lane
highway. I don't see Newburgh Road being a four lane
highway. I see roads like Telegraph and Woodward with large
medians and high traffic counts considered as highways. Also,
the decrease in population, I dont think it would warrant another
liquor license being open there. Our most compelling argument,
though, comes not from us or anybody else but from the people
in the city. In less than two weeks, we look a petition at our
store and had nearly 1,000 signatures and mostly local
residents are opposed to CVS selling liquor. The overwhelming
response was very positive toward CVS moving in but very
negative towards them selling beer and wine. They're saying
It's absolutely unnecessary. They dont need a liquor store on
every corner like some other cities. Also, one mile down the
road, there is a 24 hour Rite Aid that sells liquor. Our hours are
10:00 p.m. on weekdays and 11:00 p.m. on weekends so if
people need it, the area is already adequately served. I'm not
sure how to do this, but I do have copies of the petitions. I
made three copies for the members here. I'm not sure how to
submitthose.
July 22, 2008
24853
Mr. Walsh: If you leave those with Ms. Watson, they'll be entered into our
record.
Mr. Yono: Thank you guys.
Dan Reeves, 30415 West Thirteen Mile, Farmington Hills. Thank you, Chairman
Walsh and members of the Planning Commission for allowing
me to speak on behalf of Jason Yono, Bottles and Stuff,
regarding CVS Pharmacy's request for an SDD and SDM
license transfer directly across from his store. My name is Dan
Reeves. I'm the Executive Vice President of the Associated
Food and Petroleum Dealers, a trade association that
represents food, beverage and petroleum retailers throughout
Michigan. CVS is really a great place to shop. Not only are
they a top notch pharmacy, they sell over-the-counter drugs,
health supplies, shampoo, toothpaste, toothbrushes, deodorant,
greeting cards, magazines, batteries, snack foods. They have a
photo development department. They sell milk, bread, clock
radios and, and as you can see, they have a wonderful candy
selection. However, now CVS also wants to sell packaged
liquor less than 250 feel from Mr. Yono's store. Mr. Yono and
his family have owned their store for the past 10 years, and in
that time, they have worked very hard to become good
community citizens for their Livonia neighborhood making
generous donations to community and youth groups. They
have made a major investment in their operation to make it an
inviting destination for their customers. The area surrounding
the Yono store is well served. There are three liquor licenses
within a mile so it can't be said there aren't places to purchase
alcohol, let alone adding one more outlet with longer hours less
than 250 feet away. If CVS is denied an SDD license transfer,
they are not going to fold their lent and leave, but if they are
allowed to sell packaged liquor, they may very well cul into the
Yono store profits to a point where they may no longer be a
viable operation and may have to close their doors. If you're
looking for pantyhose, a hot water bottle or a book to read at the
beach, you won't find them at Bottles and Stuff, but you will find
a friendly family who is ready with a personal greeting and
knowledgeable recommendations to serve you because the
Yonos personify Livonia's city motto, People come first.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir. Is there anybody else in the audience wishing to
speak? Ladies and gentlemen, if you do wish to address any
item this evening, I would like if you could step forward. We do
have a long agenda so if you would line up, it would help us
move along. Sir?
July 22, 2008
24854
Tony Greco, 15616 Hunters Grove. I think we've heard the point of view from
Bottles and Sluff, and I just wanted to give you my perspective
as being a citizen who is just north of the new pharmacy. It is a
great building. I was in it over the weekend for the first time and
it's a wonderful place. When I first heard they were trying to gel
a liquor license, I didn't so much mind the fact that the beer and
wine would be transferred over from the store that was just half
a mile down the road. I suppose I would be okay with that, but
as far as bringing liquor into the area, as a citizen just living a
few hundred feet north, its something I don't want to see. Very
often on summer nights and even into the nice evenings in
Livonia, you get traffic there. You gel young adults buying liquor
and there's areas there that, you know, you can kind of camp
out and drink in cars. There's the AT&T building which has a
parking lot. There's the dentist office which closes down quit
early in the evening, and it creates more noise, more traffic on
Newburgh, which is already pretty bad. So just kind of to give
you a perspective from a citizen who is living in the area, liquor
is something that is a bit of a scary proposition for myself and I
know some of the folks living in the same area. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir. Good evening, sir
Paul Basical, 302 Orchard Drive, Northville, Michigan. Good evening. The
reason I'm here tonight to speak about this is because I believe
I have a unique outlook of whats going on. I'm the commercial
neighbor of Jason and Brandon. Iran the auto parts store; it's
New Five Auto Parts. The way I would look at this is that we
have a small shopping center there that would pretty much be
able to have six tenants in it. Right now we have three. I would
consider Jason and Brandon to be one anchor store. I would
consider myself to be the other anchor store. Right now, it's no
secret that Livonia has some problems with their retail, keeping
retail business in this community. There's a lot of empty
buildings. I don't want to see more empty buildings, and as far
as the CVS Pharmacy getting a liquor license across the street,
I do see it being a very big hardship on Jason and Brandon, and
I see it also trickling down to me. Part of my business is
because of the party store. We gel a lot of traffic coming
through and therefore it becomes known that there's an auto
parts store there. Without two stores as anchors, I think our
shopping center would be in big trouble. The things that I do
want to comment on is when somebody earlier was speaking
about the kind of liquor that they would have at CVS, I don't
think there's a lot of exotic liquor drinkers in our neighborhood. I
just don't see that as being the big bing. I see there being
some Budweiser being sold and Miller and Molson and that kind
of thing, but I don't see a lot of exotics. I think there is going to
July 22, 2008
24855
be a big cut into business for the Bottles and Sluff store, and I
think that is a big part of their business. Right now, I have been
in business at this location for 30 years, and Bottles and Stuff
has been there almost as long as I have. There was a party
store before I moved in. It was a different name. Both Jason
and Brandon have been there for roughly 10 years and have
been good neighbors. I guess the other thing I want to respond
to is, to me it doesn't really matter that liquor is going to be
locked up and behind glass and you're going to have to have a
key. I think that's a bunch of smoke and mirrors. I don't think
that's the main issue here. I think the main issue is that if you
want to buy a beer and you want to buy alcohol and you want to
buy whiskey and you want to buy those types of items, they are
readily available, and the area doesn't need another store
offering the same thing 250 feel away. And the other thing I
would say, and I do shop at CVS Pharmacy from time to time. It
is a good company, and I have no complaints about them
whatsoever opening a store across the street. And I didn't
respond when they initially decided to move in across the street
and build. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but as far as
them impacting the local businesses and turning our
neighborhood into a ghost town because of the liquor, that's
where I see the problem being. I really can't believe this is a big
thing for CVS Pharmacy. If it was a big thing, I think they would
have dolled all their i's and crossed all their is initially and made
sure that they had this variance before they built the building.
So I think is just a little add-on like, let's see if we can do this. I
don't see it being imperative to their business, but I see it as
being imperative to the party store, and I see it being imperative
to me as well. The best thing I can say is, I would rather not see
small businesses go out of business in the Livonia area. I've
been a member of the community as a businessman for 30
years. I probably don't have another 30 years in me, but I would
like to keep going as long as possible, and I hope that's possible
but I'm not confident that it would be if this goes through. Thank
you for your time.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir.
Dolores Valenti, 15635 Hunters Grove Court. My comment is, with CVS, let's
just call it corporate greed. They're trying to put the little person
out of business. We don't need another empty building. Like
the gentlemen before me said, they should have asked for this
before. I just don't feel it's fair to lake the little guy out of
business. This isn't going to put CVS out of business to have
no liquor license. They have a fine store, but I don't feel that it's
necessary to put a liquor license in there when we have one
July 22, 2008
24856
right across the street that's been there and this is their
livelihood, the family. Thank you for listening tome.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, ma'am. Is there any one else in the audience
wishing to speak for or against this proposal? I will close the
public hearing. The petitioner, CVS, has an opportunity to
speak if they wish. No one is coming brward. Al this point,
unless there are additional ques0ons or comments from the
Planning Commissioners, a mo0on is in order.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I'd like to ask one ques0on to our Planning Director and then I'll
make a motion based on that. If I want to offer an approving
resolu0on for the SDM license but not the SDD, I'm not exactly
clear from the prepared notes that we have what the proper
steps would be.
Mr. Taormina:
We have resolu0ons prepared for both. What you would do in
that case is read the approving resolution elimina0ng stipula0on
#1. Obviously, you're also elimina0ng the SDD from the first
sentence, and then following that, you would want to read the
second resolu0on, which is prepared on the next page, the
denying reasons for the SDD.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you. Does that have to be offered as two
separate resolutions orone combined?
Mr. Taormina:
We can handle that as one combined resolution.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay.
On a motion by Wilshaw, seconded by McDermott, and unanimously adopted, it
was
#0739-2008
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on July 22, 2008, on
Pet fion 2008-05-02-16 submitted by CVS/pharmacy requesting
waiver use approval to operate SDD and SDM liquor licenses at
37340 Five Mile Road, located on the north side of Five Mile
Road between Newburgh Road and Fitzgerald Street in the
Southwest % of Section 17, which properly is zoned G7, the
Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City
Council that Pe0lon 2008-05-02-16, as amended, be approved
for the use of the SDM liquor license only, provided that the City
Council waives the separation requirement between such
licensed establishments as set forth in Section 10.03(8)(1) of
the Zoning Ordinance, subject to the following condition:
July 22, 2008
24857
1. That all conditions imposed by Council Resolution #610-
06, which granted approval to construct a pharmacy with
drive -up window facilities at this location under Petition
2006-10-02-28, shall remain in effect to the event that they
are not in conflict with this approval.
Subject to the preceding condition, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the general
waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in
Section 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use;
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area; and
4. That the granting of this petition will not increase the
number of SDM licenses in the City of Livonia.
FURTHER, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend
denial of the use of the SDD liquor license only for the following
reasons:
1. That the petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the
proposed use of an SDD license is in compliance with all of
the special and general waiver use standards and
requirements as set forth in Sections 11.03 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance;
2. That the proposed use fails to comply with the Zoning
Ordinance standards set forth in Section 10.03 (g)(1) with
respect to the requirement that there be at least a 1,000
foot separation between SDD licensed establishments;
3. That this area of the City is currently well served with SDD
licensed establishments selling packaged alcoholic
beverages; and
4. That the petitioner has not sufficiently demonstrated a
need in the area for additional sales of packaged alcoholic
beverages such as are permitted by the utilization of an
SDD license.
July 22, 2008
24858
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Morrow: Just a comment. I certainly have no problem with CVS handling
liquor in another store, but it appears in this particular request, it
severely impacts one of the people that has been in business
for a long time from what I heard here tonight, supports the
community and is supported by his neighbor. For that reason,
I'm going to support the motion.
Mr. Walsh: Any additional comments?
Mrs. McDermott: I second Mr. Morrows comments and just say that the reason that
I'm supporting this is because I feel that the market is saturated
in that area with the liquor licenses.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#3 PETITION 2008-06-0247 LIVONIA CAFE
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2008-
06-02-17 submitted by Livonia Cafe Shop requesting waiver use
approval to operate a full service restaurant at 19622 Middlebell
Road, located on the east side of Middlebelt Road between Sl.
Martin Avenue and Bretton Road in the Southwest % of Section
1.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are four items of correspondence. The first dem is from
the Engineering Division, dated July 1, 2008, which reads as
follows: At your request, the Engineering Division has
reviewed the above -referenced petition. We have no objection
to the proposed petition. There are no additional right -0f -way
requirements for this site. The address of 19618 Middlebe#
Road is correct. The legal description as submitted is correct
and should be used for the waiver use as follows. Part of the
Southwest X of Section 1, T.1 S., R.9 E., City of Livonia, Wayne
County, Michigan, being Lot 437 except the East 40 Feet and
July 22, 2008
24859
Lot 438 except the West 27 feet of Supervisor's Livonia Plat No.
7 as recorded in Liber 66 on Page 58, Wayne County Records."
The letter is signed by Robert J. Schron, P.E., for the City. The
second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated
June 26, 2008, which reads as follows: 'This office has
reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request for
waiver use approval to operate a full service restaurant on the
property located at the above -referenced location. We have no
objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Donald F.
Donnelley, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of
Police, dated June 20, 2008, which reads as follows: We have
reviewed the plans in connection with Livonia Cafe, located at
19622 Middlebelt. We have no objections or recommendations
to the plans as submitted." The letter is signed by David W.
Studt, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the
Inspection Department, dated July 8, 2008, which reads as
follows: "Pursuant to your request of June 10, 2008, the above -
referenced petition has been reviewed. This Department has no
objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Jerome
Hanna, Senior Building Inspector. That is the extent of the
correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions forlhe Planning Department?
Ms Smiley:
Mark, I just want to make sure, more than half of the parking is
in the back and there is no rear entrance. The only way is to
walk around the whole thing to get into this restaurant.
Mr. Taormina:
For customers, that is cored. They're showing a door at the
back of the shopping center, but that would be restricted to
employees only, as I see it.
Ms. Smiley:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Is the petitioner here this evening? Is there anything you'd like
to add or should we go right to questions?
Ayman Safadui,
Livonia Cafe Shop, 27823 Audrey, Warren, Michigan 48092.
We can go right to questions.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Safadui, looking at the layout of your proposed cafe, it
strikes me as not having a lot of sealing. Can you tell me a little
bit about the nature of your business and whafs going to
happen, how a typical customer would go in there and get
served?
Mr. Safadui:
It is like a carry -out style, Ike a Subway style. There won't be
any cooking. Basically, everything is pre -made, coffee, juices,
July 22, 2008
24880
fresh juice bar. If you'd like to sit down, that's fine. There will
be a waitress available.
Mr. Wilshaw:
There will be a waitress.
Mr. Safadui:
Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Interesting. You also have a juice bar which is going to serve
fresh juices. Someone would go the bar, get a juice and then
go sit down and drink it.
Mr. Safadui:
They can sit down at the bar or they can sit down at the tables,
anywhere they want.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you. Are you going to have internet access or
something?
Mr. Safadui:
Not yet. I'm working on it.
Mr. Wilshaw:
What sort of food products are you going to be serving? It says
prepackaged. Is that sandwiches and those types of things?
Mr. Safadui:
There's going to be salads that will be made on site. The
sandwiches, some of them are prepackaged; some will be made
on the customer's request. We can make cheese and salad
together. There are a couple options. Just an easy vegetarian
menu.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Is there going to be any smoking allowed in this
restaurant?
Mr. Safadui:
Notyet. No. Nosmoking.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Ms. Scheel:
One of the showcases says a nonfood showcase. What are
some types of things that would be in that?
Mr. Safadui:
There are going to be books and magazines.
Ms. Scheel:
Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
She stole my question.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions for the petitioner?
July 22, 2008
24861
Ms.
McDermott:
Are we proposing any outdoor sealing for this cafe?
Mr.
Safadui:
Not this year, next year probably.
Mrs.
McDermott:
Next year?
Mr.
Safadui:
Yes.
Mrs.
McDermott:
Okay. Thank you.
Ms.
Smiley:
Mr. Chair, I was wondering or actually you, sir, if you could tell
me like your parking. You don't see the parking as a problem
with all the parking in the back and the customers have to walk
around?
Mr.
Safadui:
No, not really because I'm depending more on carryout.
Ms.
Smiley:
So you think they'll only be there a few seconds, in and out?
Mr.
Safadui:
Five minutes maximum.
Ms.
Smiley:
Then I was wondering how we're doing with that landscaping
and the parking lot?
Mr.
Safadui:
That's up to the landlord.
Ms.
Smiley:
That's up to the landlord?
Mr.
Walsh:
Mr. Zebari is in the audience, Ms. Smiley, if you'd like to ask that
question to him directly.
Ms.
Smiley:
Okay.
Mr.
Walsh:
Mr. Zebari, if you can come forward.
Rocky Zebari,
37731 Slableview Drive, Farmington Hills, Michigan 48335.
Remember the Iasi time we were here, it was tabled. I'm going
to come with a new landscaping plan, and it will be done
according to the city's specifications.
Ms.
Smiley:
And you realize that impacts the parking?
Mr.
Zebari:
I feel I have plenty ofparking and most of our customers are in
and out in five minutes, even for the party store. We don't have
long term slay. So parking has always been adequate and
these shops were always here.
Ms.
Smiley:
Okay. Thank you.
July 22, 2008
24862
Mr. Morrow:
Mr. Zeban, you indicated that the landscape plan is being
worked on. Could you give us a target date or a date you're
working on to complete the parking lot work and the dumpster
enclosure? Have you got a new contractor for that?
Mr. Zeban:
Not yet, but I can have it done within two weeks. The reason
the parking lot is not striped because we got involved in
renovating the barbershop, and I figure if I wail long enough, the
parking lot will not need the stripe and will not be good anymore
because when you're in constriction, it can damage it.
Mr. Morrow:
Have you made any arrangements so that you can begin
operating before you gellhose improvements done?
Mr. Zeban:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
What have you done?
Mr.Zeban:
We will reslnpe the parking lot, finish the landscaping, and finish
all the things I promised to do which I have a cash bond for that
to do.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay. So if I'm following you correctly, will any businesses
begin to operate prior to ...
Mr. Zeban:
Probably the party store will be the first one to open, and it will
not open until all these things are done.
Mr. Morrow:
They will not open or they will open?
Mr. Zeban:
Yes. They will open after the landscaping is finished, the
parking lot is restriped and the dumpsters enclosed.
Mr. Morrow:
Then you'll begin to operate at that location?
Mr. Zeban:
Yes, sir.
Mr. Morrow:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Zeban:
Thank you.
Ms. Scheel:
I have a followup question. So following up with what Mr.
Morrow just asked, does that mean the restaurant won't open
until the parking lot is done and everything also?
Mr. Zeban:
I would be open before the restaurant. Definitely we will have
all these things done before he opens.
July 22, 2008
24863
Ms. Scheel:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Zeban:
Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I do have one question, nor for Mr. Zeban but for the proprietor
of the restaurant, and I have to ask this because it's been an
issue as of late at some of the other meetings. Do you have
any intention of selling hookah tobacco at this restaurant at any
point in the future?
Mr. Safadui:
No.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Soil's strictly going to be the food and ...
Mr. Safadui:
It will be a healthy environment.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Sounds good to me. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions? Thank you, Mr. Safadui.
We appreciate you being here tonight. Is there anybody in the
audience that wishes to speak for or against this petition?
Seeing no one coming forward, the public hearing is closed. A
motion would be in order.
On a motion by Scheel, seconded by Morrow, and unanimously adopted, it was
#07-60-2008
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on July 22, 2008, on
Petition 2008-06-02-17 submitted by Livonia Cafe Shop
requesting waiver use approval to operate a full service
restaurant at 19622 Middlebell Road, located on the east side of
Middlebell Road between Sl. Martin Avenue and Bretton Road
in the Southwest''/. of Section 1, which properly is zoned C-2
and OS, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Petition 2008-06-02-17 be approved
subject to the following conditions:
1. That the customer seating provided in connection with the
proposed restaurant shall be in accordance with the
Tennant Space Plan submitted by Livonia Cafe Shop,
received by the Planning Commission on June 6, 2008;
2. That the maximum customer seating count shall not
exceed 34 seats;
3. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition,
and any additional signage shall be submitted for review
July 22, 2008
24884
and approval by the Planning Commission and City
Council;
4. That no LED lighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on the site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows;
5. That this approval is subject to the petitioner being granted
any needed variances from the Zoning Board of Appeals
for deficient number of parking spaces;
6. That all conditions imposed by Council Resolution #500-
07, which granted site plan approval for the renovation of
the subject commercial building under Petition 2007-08-08-
14, shall remain in effect to the extent that they are not in
conflict with this approval;
7. That the items outlined in the correspondence dated
August 24, 2007, from the Inspection Department shall be
rectified to that Department's satisfaction prior to the
issuance of a Certificate of Occupancy for the subject use;
8. That the subject use shall be a smoke-free environment;
and
9. That the specific plan referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the general
waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in
Section 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use; and
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Morrow: I would like to add one other condition that this particular use
will be a smoke-free healthy environment.
July 22, 2008
24865
Ms. Scheel: I would support that also.
Ms. Smiley: Do we have to put anything in here that the other things that
have been tabled, or the landscaping, the parking lot and that
stuff will be done prior to the opening or is there someway we
need to word that Mark?
Mr. Taormina: I think that would be appropriate.
Mr. Walsh: Do you want to do that, Mr. Morrow?
Mr. Morrow: Absolutely. I kind of alluded to that when I talked about the
smoke-free environment based on what the owner had
indicated. So I will go along with that.
Mr. Walsh: The motion has been amended and carried, and the foregoing
resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an
approving resolution.
ITEM#4 PETlTION2008-06-0248 T4ulOBILE
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, 2008-06-02-18
submitted by T -Mobile Central L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval
to construct a 75 foot flagpole -type wireless communication facility at
18000 Newburgh, located on the east side of Newburgh Road
between Six Mile Road and Curtis in the Southwest''/. of Section 8.
NOTE: Item #4 has been removed from the agenda at the
request ofthe petitioner.
ITEM#5 PETITION 2008-06-0249 PANERA
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2008-
06-02-19 submitted by Panem L.L.C. requesting waiver use
approval to increase the total seating capacity of the full service
restaurant (Panera Bread) which includes both indoor and
outdoor dining facilities at 20140 Haggerty Road, located on the
east side of Haggerty Road between Seven Mile Road and
Eight Mile Road in the Northwest''/. of Section 6.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated June 25, 2008, which reads as
July 22, 2008
24866
follows: At your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed
the above referenced petition. We have no objection to the
proposed petition. There are no additional right-of-way
requirements for this site. The address of the Panera Bread site
is 20140 Haggerty Road." The letter is signed by Robert J.
Schron, P.E. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire &
Rescue Division, dated June 26, 2008, which reads as follows:
"This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection
with a request for waiver use approval to increase the total
seating capacity of the restaurant for both indoor and outdoor
dining on the property located at the above -referenced address.
We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by
Donald F. Donnelley, Fire Marshal. The third letter is from the
Inspection Department, dated June 24, 2008, which reads as
follows: "Pursuant to your request of June 18, 2008, the above -
referenced petition has been reviewed. The following is noted.
There is no discernible scale on the drawing nor are any
dimensions given for the proposed spacing of the tables so a
review cannot be done. However, a minimum aisle spacing of
at least 44 inches should be maintained in walkways and at the
exit discharge areas for both doors. Further, the table nearest
the accessible ramp should be relocated to allow ramp users to
have a direct line to the entry door. In the future, please provide
an address for all review requests when one is available. This
Department has no further objections to this petition." The letter
is signed by Alex Bishop, Director of Inspection. That is the
extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions for the Planning Department? Seeing
none, then we will go to the petitioner.
Patrick Turek,
Panera L.L.C., 1600 South Brentwood, Suite 300, Brentwood,
Missouri 63114. Good evening. I'd like to just make myself
available for any questions. We have addressed some of the
things that have come up with regard to this seating layout.
This was what we had originally proposed when we went in for a
permit with this. What we have done is made some minor
adjustments to this to pull the seals and tables a little bit further
away from the edge of the patio.
Mr. Walsh:
Sir, there's an easel just behind you. If you come right in front,
there's a hand microphone. This will help with the camera for
the people watching from home.
Mr. Turek:
So a couple things we did. We adjusted our seats here to pull
them further away from a path. There's a five foot path here for
access. There is no ADA required curb cul to go on the patio.
Handicap parking we have in font. We created an area that
July 22, 2008
24867
makes it easy for them. Again, the patios, we kind of squared
them up so they're a little bit further away from the edge of the
patio. We have not included a railing because we don't feel that
the railing offers any real safety from cars. If the cars come too
close, we don't feel that offers any additional safety outside of
the barriers that are there.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. Questions?
Mrs. McDermott:
Is it possible for the tables to be moved? Like for instance, if
your customers come in and they decide they want a different
arrangement, can they possibly drag the table?
Mr. Turek:
They can't. The umbrellas that are there are actually bolted
down into the concrete. We put those in storage in the
wintertime to keep them from being damaged. They are bolted
down into the concrete, so that's not really an issue for safety
and also for moving the tables.
Mrs. McDermotl:
Okay. Thank you.
Ms. Vartoogian:
What are your hours of operation for the outdoor patio area?
Mr. Turek:
The same as for the interior. So its 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Are you providing any additional outdoor lighting for that area?
Mr. Turek:
No.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Are there going to be outdoor speakers?
Mr. Turek:
There are outdoor speakers that play the same music that plays
on the inside.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Will they play until 9:00 at night?
Mr. Turek:
Yes.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions? Seeing none, thank you,
sir, for being here. Is there anybody in the audience that wishes
to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one coming
forward, the public hearing is closed. Al this point, a motion
would be in order.
On a motion by
Smiley, seconded by Wilshaw, and adopted, it was
July 22, 2008
24868
#07-61-2008 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on July 22, 2008, on
Petition 2008-06-02-19 submitted by Panere L.L.C. requesting
waiver use approval to increase the total seating capacity of the
full service restaurant (Panere Bread) which includes both
indoor and outdoor dining facilities at 20140 Haggerty Road,
located on the east side of Haggerty Road between Seven Mile
Road and Eight Mile Road in the Northwest''/. of Section 6,
which property is zoned G2, the Planning Commission does
hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2008-06-02-
19 be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Architectural Site Plan marked Sheet AS -1
prepared by Maxwell Johanson Maher Architects, dated
July 22, 2008, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
2. That the Equipment Plan marked Sheet E42.1 prepared
by Maxwell Johanson Maher Architects, dated July 22,
2008, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to, with the
outdoor sealing being confined to portions of the patio area
adjacent to the west side of the subject restaurant building
as shown on said plan;
3. That the maximum number of customer seats shall not
exceed 144 seals, including 111 seats inside the building
and 33 outdoor seats;
4. That the petitioner shall comply with the following
stipulations in the correspondence dated June 24, 2008
from the Inspection Department:
- That a minimum aisle spacing of at least 44 inches shall
be maintained in walkways and at the exit discharge
areas for both doors;
- That the tables nearest the accessible ramp shall be
positioned to allow ramp users to have a direct line to
the entry door;
5. That trash receptacles shall be provided for the outdoor
seating area and shall be emptied regularly as needed;
6. That all conditions imposed by Council Resolution #52-07,
which granted waiver use approval to construct and
operate a full service restaurant at this location under
Petition 2006-11-02-31, shall remain in effect to the extent
that they are not in conflict with this approval:
July 22, 2008
24869
7. That sound levels of outdoor speakers shall be kept at an
acceptable decibel level so as to not become
objectionable; and
8. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time of application for a Zoning Compliance Permit
for the outdoor dining.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the special and
general waiver use standards and requirements as set
forth in Sections 11.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance
#543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use; and
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there any discussion?
Ms. Smiley:
Mark, those are June 11 plans that we looked at this evening
that they revised?
Mr. Taormina:
No. We will probably have to indicate a revised plan date.
Maybe the petitioner can provide that to us.
Mr. Turek:
They have today's date on them.
Ms. Smiley:
So instead of June 11, its now July 22.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there support?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Support. I just want to see if we can maybe add one condition
to this approving resolution, if the maker is so willing, to indicate
that the outdoor speakers shall be kept at an acceptable decibel
level. I'm not sure what our standard is off the lop of my head.
Mr. Taormina might be able to help me with that, but they
should be turned off after 9:00 p.m. in the evening.
July 22, 2008
24870
Mr. Walsh: Is that acceptable to Ms. Smiley?
Ms. Smiley: Itis acceptable.
Mr. Morrow: My comment is that Panera certainly has an attractive building.
All the reports I have is that they run a very excellent restaurant.
I have no problem with the outdoor seating but because there is
no fencing or enclosure around the outdoor seating, I will not
support the motion.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. Any additional comments? Seeing none, would the
secretary please call the roll?
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Smiley, Wilshaw, McDermott, Scheel, Varloogian,
Walsh
NAYES:
Morrow
ABSTAIN:
None
ABSENT:
None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#6 PETITION 2008-06-0220 LIVONIA MARKETPLACE
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2008-
06-02-20 submitted by Livonia Phoenix, L.L.C. requesting
waiver use approval for a Planned General Development
consisting of a total of approximately 320,180 square feet of
retail building area (Livonia Marketplace) at 29514 Seven Mile
Road, located on the north side of Seven Mile Road between
Middlebelt Road and Purlingbrook Avenue in the Southwest''/.
of Section 2.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the existing
zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are several items of correspondence. The first item is
from the Engineering Division, dated July 1, 2008, which reads
as follows: At your request, the Engineering Division has
reviewed the above -referenced petition. We have no objection
July 22, 2008
24871
to the proposed petition except as noted below. There are no
additional right-of-way requirements for this site. Then= is a
minor error in fie legal descriptions on sheets SP -1.0 and 2.0.
The first bearing in the sixteenth line on sheet SP -1.0 should be
N.90`00'00'W. Since Livonia Drain No. 16 is 18 feet deep,
Building A' should be shifted east as much as possible (20'+1--)
to increase the separation of its west wall from the drain in case
the drain needs to be excavated for maintenance purposes in
the future. Jurisdiction of the outlet at Livonia Drain No. 16
currently rests with the City and, therefore, no permit is required
from Wayne County regarding storm runoff. The Design
Engineeris proposing three storm water management basins of
varying size throughout the proposed site. The purpose of the
basins is to remove suspended solids, phosphorus and other
nutrients from the site runoff for a 1" storm before it reaches the
outlet at Livonia Drain No. 16. Calculations have verified that
detention would provide only minimal erosion benefit to the
downstream flow in Livonia Drain No. 16. There will be a
reduction in the overall runoff of approximately 7% due to the
additional landscaping being proposed. The Design Engineer
has been requested to provide a succinct description of the
proposed storm water management program for approval by the
Department of Public Works. All sanitary sewer and water main
facilities should be labeled as 'Public' or `Private' as appropriate.
Since the tenant spaces are conceptual at this time, we have
established the following preliminary addresses. All addresses
are Seven Mile addresses. Building A — 29660 through 29666,
Building B — 29580 through 29598, Building C — 29630 through
29652, Building D — 29560 through 29576, Building E — 29610
through 29624, Building F — 29560 through 29576, Building G —
29540 through 29550. We trust that this will provide you with
the information requested." The letter is signed by Robert J.
Schron, P.E. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire &
Rescue Division, dated July 8, 2008, which reads as follows:
'This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection
with a request for waiver use approval for a Planned General
Development consisting of a total of approximately 320,180
square feet of retail building area on the property located at the
above referenced location. We have no objections to this
proposal with the following stipulations: (1) If subject building(s)
are to be provided with an automatic sprinkler system, an on
site hydrant shall be located between 50 feet and 100 feet from
the Fire Department connection. (2) Adequate hydrants shall be
provided and located with spacing consistent with the use
group. (3) Hydrant spacing shall be consistent with City of
Livonia Ordinances. (4) This division requests that the entrance
drive be posted (on both sides) 'Fire Lane — No Parking'. (5)
July 22, 2008
24872
Access around building shall be provided for emergency
vehicles with a minimum vertical clearance of thirteen feet six
inches, a turning radius of fifty-thme feet wall to wall and an
inside turning radius of twenty-nine feet six inches. (6) Any
curves or comer of streets shall accommodate emergency
vehicles with a turning radius of fifty-three feet wall to wall and
an inside turning radius of twenty-nine feet six inches. (7) Fire
lanes shall be provided for all buildings that are set back more
than 150 feet from a public road or exceed 30 feet in height and
are setback over 50 feet from a public mad. (8) Fire lanes shall
be not less than 20 feet of unobstructed width, able to withstand
live loads of fire apparatus, and have a minimum of 13 feet 6
inches of vertical clearance. (9) Fire lanes shall be marked with
freestanding signs that have the words FIRE LANE — NO
PARKING painted in contrasting colors (on both sides) at a size
and spacing approved by the authority having junsdiction. (10)
Please submit a revised site plan to this office with the
stipulated changes." The letter is signed by Earl Fesler, Sr. Fire
Inspector. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated
July 1, 2008, which reads as follows: We have reviewed the
plans in connection with the Livonia Marketplace, located at
29514 Seven Mile. We have no objections or recommendations
to the plans as submitted." The letter is signed by David W.
Studt, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the
Inspection Department, dated July 8, 2008, which reads as
follows: "Pursuant to your request of June 26, 2008, the above -
referenced petition has been reviewed. The following is noted.
(1) This site is being reviewed as a regional center. It has
320,180 square feet and with the adjacent Sears site footage
the total will be over the thresh hold of 500,000 square feet and
contains cross site agreements. (2) All regular parking spaces
are to be 10 feet wide and 20 feet in length and double striped.
(3) All barrier free parking spaces must be property sized,
signed and striped. (4) The proposed parking area is deficient
by 177 spaces (based on less than 15% of building space as
restaurant) or 257 spaces (based on more than 15% of building
space as restaurant). A variance from the Zoning Board of
Appeals would be required to maintain the deficient number of
parking spaces. (5) The parking lot light poles are detailed as
36 feet high poles with 3 feet high base and 12 feet poles with 2
feet high base. The Commission and/or Council may wish to
review the proposed heights (6) The petitioner has proposed
two monument signs. Two monument signs are permitted with
a maximum height of 20 feet and a total sign area of 100 square
feet each. A minimum 10 feet setback from the right of way is
required along with a minimum of 300 feet between signs. A
variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals would be required to
maintain the excess height and square footage of both signs.
July 22, 2008
24873
No other signage has been reviewed. This Department has no
further objections to this petition." The letter is signed by
Jerome Hanna, Senior Building Inspector. The next letter is
from Art Van Furniture, dated July 16, 2008, which reads as
follows: 'This letter shall serve as notice of Art Van Furniture's
support of the proposed Livonia Mal redevelopment. This
initiative will serve as a catalyst for new business to the entire
area, which is particularly important in these challenging
economic times. Should you have any questions, please do not
hesitate to call." The letter is signed by Art Van Eislander,
Chairman. The next letter is from The Equitable Group, Inc.,
dated July 16, 2008, which reads as follows: As a neighboring
owner of property located at 19711 Middlebelt, Livonia,
Michigan, we are very much in favor of the development of
Livonia Mall. We are hopeful it comes to fruition, as the area
really needs this right now. Thank you for your consideration."
The letter is signed by Richard A. Rosenbaum, President. The
next letter is from Donna L. Iding, PMP, which was faxed to the
Planning Department on July 18, 2008, and which reads as
follows: "These four requests listed below should be kept in
mind when developing, designing and building across from the
Nottingham Village Condominiums (Listed on map as R -C)
located on St. Martin right directly across from the development
area. The development area in front of the Nottingham Village
condos which is the Area P NW parking of Sears and extending
to the shaded area in question being discussed in this Public
Hearing meeting. (1) Designed so semifiucks are a minimum
of 500 feet away from the Livonia Market curb. (a) Prevent
semi -trucks from parking close to condos. (b) Prevent semi -
trucks storing their trailers close to condos (2) Not have
unsightly items across from condos (a) such as, but not limited
to back of building, loading docks, trash bins. (3) Maintain a
green' area along St. MarfinsoCondo area. (a) Keep the existing
trees and bushes. (b) If sell or donate the existing live trees and
bushes, then need to replace. (4) Noise level after 11.30 p.m.
needs to meet zoning for a neighborhood. These four requests
are listed in order of importance. They are fair and reasonable
requests that affect all the owners of the condominiums in the
Nottingham Village directly across from the development.
Appreciate the city using the above four requests as the Livonia
Marketplace is being developed. Thank you for your time." The
letter is signed by Donna L. (ding, 29505 Nottingham Ct.,
Livonia, Michigan 48152. That is the extent of the
correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the Planning Department?
July 22, 2008
24874
Ms. Smiley:
So the total square footage for the Marketplace, including
Sears, would be greater than what's at Livonia Mall right now?
Mr. Taormina:
No. This would represent a reduction in total retail space. I
don't have that number. I'm sure the petitioner can give you an
idea of how much less retail area is represented than what is
currently on the site.
Ms. Smiley:
Thank you very much.
Ms. Scheel:
The parking spaces that you gave, the number that you gave
earlier, that does not including the parking spaces that are to the
north and south of Sears. Is that cored? That only includes
the parking spaces in the shadowed area.
Mr. Taormina:
That is correct.
Ms. Scheel:
Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions for the Planning Department?
Seeing none, we will go to the petitioner.
Bryan Amann,
Esq., Brashear, Tangom, Gallagher, Creighton & Amann, L.L.P.,
355 N. Canton Center, Canton, Michigan 48187 Good evening,
Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. My name
is Bryan Amann, attorney on behalf of the developer. I have
also with me a variable flotilla of consultants and experts that we
can feel free to call on. Bill Eisenberg from Grand
Sakwa/Livonia Phoenix is here. We also have Mark Drane from
Rogvoy. He's the architect right back here, the premier
commercial architect in the area, I'll tell you. We also have a
gentleman from Atwell Hicks, Dan McNulty, CEO of Atwell
Hicks, and Mike Mott from the engineering firm. Then we also
have Lisa Lenfestey. She works with Dr. Don Tilton who is one
of the premium water quality experts as it relates to designing
storm water drainage. He typically is a consultant for many
municipalities around the state and also other agencies. We
brought him in on this side of the project to try to make sure that
the natural areas of the project are not only functional but that
there's great amenities and aesthetic areas for the
development. She here's to answer any questions regarding
those issues. If I may, just for a couple seconds, to get a little
bit of context about this project, I realize you have extensive
readings and I'm going to try to keep this very brief, but there's a
few things I just want to highlight for you tonight realizing there
are a lot of people with a lot of interest in this project and we're
excited to gel through that. This is really about the rebirth of
what is purported to be the most dead mall in Michigan. If you
July 22, 2008
24875
go to the web site known as "Deadmalls.com" and you click on
Michigan, you find number one on the list the Livonia Mall. So
we're excited to be working with you tonight to gel this mall off
that list. We're excited because we think it gives a tremendous
opportunity. As to your question about the square footage,
currently the Livonia Mall non -Sears portion is in excess of
500,000 square feel. We will be getting to a gross square fool
of essentially about 60 percent of what's there now. So it will be
about a 200,000 square fool reduction having about 320,000
square feel, I think is the number we're going to end up with.
So it will be a sizeable reduction from the building mass and
floor area and sales area and the impact that's currently on the
site. Its important for us, as I'm going to discuss in a second, to
have the look and the feel that we want to have for this project
that we think northeast Livonia deserves to do that, not to try to
max out the square footage of this site. The building has been
declared functionally obsolete by your own Assessor's
Department, and I think it's obviously to anyone who has been
within a half mile of it, just looking at it, but it's probably fair to
say that about the site as well. Its good that we have this
depiction of I because you can sfill see the depiction of the
parking lot in front of Sears and the contrast is as stark as we
could request, the absence of any green space, the sea of
asphalt that is there. So our desire really is to not only
redevelop this project but to really transform it into something
that people are not used to seeing in this section of town. We
think it's important because this area deserves it. Let me talk
briefly about the context of our zoning and our uses right now.
Currently, we have the zoning and the entiflements under the
ordinance to construct the uses that we want to make here in
terms of the kinds of store. Before you tonight is not the
question of what kinds of stores will go here or what sizes of
stores because with the zoning in place for the Livonia Mall, that
has the ability the make large commercial uses on it. What
we're really about tonight and what the issue before you really is
for the Livonia Marketplace is the look and the feel we want to
achieve in terms of transformi ng this site, not only this site but
also hoping to begin the transformation of the balance of the
surrounding properties, including the Sears property, and
hopefully leading to what we think will be a catalyst for the areas
around northeast Livonia, starting and having this be the
epicenter for that. The issues we're really hoping to discuss
with you, as Mr. Taormina explains as it relates to the elements
about our buildable space area, our areas of amenities, our
panting spaces, our setbacks, and those things. Those are
things all critical to the look and the feel of the project we want
to create, and it really has to do with the site, the layout of the
site, the amount of landscaping and all the amenities, really the
July 22, 2008
24876
character of the development. For bo long the residents of
northeast Livonia have had to watch as Livonia Mall and other
sites were passed over for what some believed to be greener
pastures west of Livonia, in Northville, Novi, Canton, even
Westland. This isn't any secret, and it remains an issue today.
Most recently, Livonia Mall was trapped by leases with stores
like Value City and Mervyn's, with those long-term leases.
Everybody who looked at an opportunity to try to redevelop this
mall basically walked away because those stores were in leases
there that you could never gel rid of and they wouldn't consider
R. So with a store like Value City there, you cannot attract the
kinds of users you want to have there. So when we got
involved, and also you have the other issue of the ever present
Sears sitting to the east. It was dear that nothing would really
change with this project unless something drastic happened.
This is where enters the time when Grand Sakwa desired to
infuse new ownership in the previous owner and they formed a
new entity, Livonia Phoenix. The term phoenix obviously having
a practical application to trying to raise this from the ashes of
what was there. They decided to really make a tremendous
effort to not only deal with the desire to develop this in the
proper manner but to lake the very expensive process of laking
out those other leases. It was important in order to do the kind
of project we wanted to gel and gel the kind of tenants we are
hoping to get, to gel rid of Value City, to buy them out of the
lease. It wasn't cheap but it was necessary. The same thing
with Mervyn's. We also made an attempt to work a deal with
Jo -Ann's. They are currently on-site staying open and hopefully
people will patronize them. Things may change over time but
we want to make sure that we can do as much as we can to get
as much of the new feel that people want to have over here as
opposed to what has been there. Grand Sakwa and Laura
Nexlem, they have tremendous reputations. Some of you may
know some of their other developments. The one that most
people know around here was the original commercial
development over at Six and Haggerty where Barnes & Noble
and all the restaurants and Kroger's now are. It was really the
beginning of what occurred over there. They also had been
redeveloping all their in -field projects around the country, so this
is not something new to them. They are used to taking difficult
sites, sometimes sites that weren't even commercial sites, old
military facilities and other places and turning them into major
commercial areas. Some of you may be more familiar with
some of their other projects around town. Those of you who
have been along US 23 just south of 196, there's a project there
known as Green Oaks on the east side of that where Barnes &
Noble, J. C. Penney, Dick's Sporting Goods and those kinds of
things. If you look to some of the elevations and some of the
July 22, 2008
24877
buildings here, that is the kind of look and feel of that project
that they did that we want to try to continue on in this project.
They had a reputation and record of doing first class work by
over -landscaping the site, providing interesting and often
expensive arohitecture, much to our arohilect's delight, and
maintaining their sites to very high standards. To the extent the
Livonia Mall is in need of some TLC, it fell into the right hands.
To keep a long story short, the new combined ownership
managed by the new owners look the expensive steps of
dealing with the old tenants to gel them out of there so that we
think we can give this mall and this site a chance to prosper.
Compared to many other projects, the underlying costs of this
project, what many tax and accounting people know is the
basis, is very expensive. There's no question. The cost to get
in here and get these things done was much more expensive
than just going to some other field. But those who know
commercial real estate will tell you that we also have an uphill
baffle. We have been working ever since the day we envisioned
the possibility of being involved in this project to talk to potential
national retailers to get them to come to this site. As those of
you who have been working so hard to really gel this area, to
prop it up and do things over there and maintain your
businesses, we mel with business owners there. One of our
jobs is that we are trying to change the perceptions national
retailers have of not only this site but of northeast Livonia. They
have bypassed it for other sites for a long time. So it's become
a habit. So we've been working with them over the last several
months to talk to them and attract them to this area. We're also
working and have been looking at transforming this site to
something that looks newer and more fresh than what retailers
are continually attracted to in other areas. If you Mink about
Haggerty Road, our goal is to have this stand above what you
see over there. This needs to be newer, fresher, more attractive
if we want to attract the kinds of tenants that the residents of
northeast Livonia deserve. We also have a big job to do with
the neighbors and the residents and the people in that area.
We need to renew the belief amongst those folks that this is a
destination location for retail. They have gotten to the point
where they had to drive by this area for other uses because they
wouldn't go there. They've had to drive by for things they
couldn't find there. So our job, not only in our process of
developing this site, but also marketing this, is to let people
know that we are going to have users, the kinds of tenants they
want to have that will draw them to this site. Neighboring
businesses are hoping for this because they're hoping for the
draw that they will experience for increased business. As
residents of northeast Livonia know full well, the demographics
are strong enough to support what we are proposing. The
July 22, 2008
24878
number of rooftops, the income levels, they're all great. The
fundamentals are there for this project to work, and we're
comfortable that the mall will succeed. The entire area will, in
fact, do better as a result of it, but we've got to create this
dramatically different look in order to create the beginning of a
new transformation here. We've mel with some of the area
businesses, and we will be meeting with some of the
neighboring residents to address their concerns before we get
to the Council on some specific issues that we expect to hear
about tonight. We look forward to that dialog. Tonight is really
for us and for the beginning of a process. It's not the end of
anything. So we're looking forward to the dialog to work with
concerns that might pop up about this project. Our goal is to
work through the planning process with the Planning
Commission and the City Council. At the same time, residents
will note that we obviously had to secure the site. The nature of
the affairs today and we had to secure the site because there
are too many people trying to steal scrap and material off
buildings. It is our goal to work through the process of other
documentation to essentially begin the demolition of this ste in
September. It's our goal to start demolition and do everything
we need to do to gel the site down in a very orderly and detailed
fashion. We will work with the neighbors and the businesses,
and we've already been meeting with the City about the
processes involved to demolish this site. If we are working
through the process, accordingly our goal is to then start
excavation really in the dead of winter and try to become vertical
beginning next year, start putting walls and those kinds of things
up. You'll see that we're talking about seven buildings here. It's
our intention to build in one continuous process. Not everything
at once, but the plan is to start with the largest stuff in the rear
and work towards the front, but its not intended to be really
phased but its intended to be a continuous process. So we
don't want neighbors to think this is going to be a five-year
process and they'll be staring at constant construction and dirt
and dust. That's not the intention. We don't do that. We will
build this site to get it ready even if we don't have the tenants
we need for some of the small uses in those areas. Neighbors
that I have spoken with and neighboring businesses that I have
spoken with have echoed what Mayor Kirskey and several City
Council members have emphasized to us. They have indicated
they want to make sure that this development has a grocery
store component to it because of the closing of the Farmer
Jacks. We understand that. They are echoing, whether they
know it or not, the same concerns that we are told by the
financial markets. The truth is nowadays you cannot get
financing for shopping centers and projects unless you have a
grocery store component because they create the daily traffic
July 22, 2008
24879
and draw people to the site that make the users want to be
there. So our goal is absolutely to have a tenant that will have a
substantial full grocery component so people will not have to
drive miles away from where they are, even though I will still
continue to go to Cantoro's regardless of where they are for all
the special Italian foods that I always have to try to get
regardless of who's here. So Mayor Kirksey and the Council
members have made that clear and so have the neighbors, and
we agree with that. Mayor Kirskey and several Council
members have also emphasized that this project needs to really
serve as a catalyst for not only this site, but as a way to try to
get the Sears properly moving forward in several ways and
ultimately the balance of the area moving forward, and we agree
with that. We believe, as you review the proposed elevations
and the site layout, you'll see that this essentially is not your
father's Livonia Mall. This is something very new, but the partial
lifestyle component from out front that we're going to have in the
mid areas there, we expect this project will show well against
any other project you're going to see in Michigan. Again, the
owners of this project are known for essentially dressing them
up and making them as pretty as possible because we know
that we can have the best opportunity to attract the best tenants,
attract more customers. We spend a little more money. It
makes it worth everybody elses while. We think not only does
the site deserve it and our tenants deserve it, we think the
residents of northeast Livonia deserve it as well. We are
expecting to have at least essentially two national retailers in the
back to anchor this project to help drive that traffic that we
talked about, that daily traffic. So what is before you tonight?
Its not about the uses and who they are and the size. That
pretty much is all a matter of the zoning, whatever. What you
have before you is what Mr. Taormina laid out. It is essentially
the buildable space area, which talks about the areas. It has
the issues of the entitlements to the square footage. We've got
the setbacks in there, the elevations, our green space area, the
slormwaler management plans and those kinds of things, the
parking ratios. Let me address the parking ratios for a second
because I know there's always a little nervousness when
somehow somebody wants to do a little less parking than what
the ordinance provides. The truth is, in commercial real estate,
lately the Urban Land Institute has come out and recommended
to municipalities that they, in fact, cut their parking requirements
by 40 percent of what they are because they are finding too
many places with too many seas of asphalt and not enough cars
and loo many spaces. The ratio we are proposing, the 4.5, is
cntical, we believe, and is functional and it works for the uses
we have. More important, the way we lay the parking out, you'll
see, is critical to the function of these uses. We envision the
July 22, 2008
24880
middle and out buildings to have a combination of restaurants
and small retailers and those kinds of things. The kinds of things
that people want to pull up, get out of the car, walk to another
location. We have done this kind of development in many other
locations, one on US 23 that I mentioned, Rochester Hills. We
also have one up in Grand Blanc and other places around the
country so we know what we're doing about parking ratio. We
are trying to create a look and feel, and that's why really,
through the use of Don Tilton and his office, we tried to also
create functional green spaces in there to kind of create that
feel, the park -like amenity feel. We want people to spend more
time. The truth is, if they spend more time, they'll spend more
money at the site. No big surprise. So we're comfortable with
those items. That's what's before you tonight. So with that, for
that not so brief introduction, we're prepared to answer any
questions you might have or any other concerns that are
brought up.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, Mr. Amann. Are there any questions from the
Planning Commission?
Mrs. McDermott:
Hi, Mr. Amann.
Mr. Amann:
Hi.
Mrs. McDermott
First of all, I want to say I'm thrilled to have a discussion about
the site. I've lived in Livonia all my life and I'm not going to
answer how long that is. I've been asked before when I made
that statement. And I have seen the mall when it was in it's hay
day and it was viable and it was vibrant and then, of course, I've
seen the decline. My questions tonight are just basically in the
interests of improving that area. I understand that the site, key
to the site, is your request for a brownfeld that you will be
making with the City Council.
Mr. Amann:
Correct.
Mrs. McDermott
And I was wondering if, and I know it's not an easy topic to
explain, but if you could please, maybe for the viewing audience
and those here tonight, just give a brief synopsis of what a
brownfeld is.
Mr. Amann:
Absolutely. I'll be glad to, and if I mess it up, Bill will come up
and knock me over and take care of the rest of it. The
Brownfield Authority that we are going to be seeking approval
with the City Council is not before you tonight as a jurisdictional
mater, but I'll be glad to give some insights so people
understand. Brownfield Authorities are an economic
July 22, 2008
24881
development tool used throughout Michigan by many
communities. In fad, the community of Northville is looking at it
for all the properly you hear about over there. That entire
process is talking about a Brownfield Authority. Many
communities use this. Under Slate law, you're allowed to use
this authority when you have a parcel that is either some form of
contamination or issues involving the properly, the soil, or the
building or whatever, or, in our case, when a property is
functionally obsolete. This properly has been determined by
your Assessor to be functionally obsolete. And I think long
before your Assessor got there the customers came to that
conclusion. In fad, as a practical matter, it no longer served its
intended purpose and it has no reasons likely to doing that. So
what the Brownfield Authority allows to have happens is, it
allows essentially a lax capture authority to be created, a
process to be used whereby the developer will go ahead and do
the demolition and then put all the money in for infrastructure
and all the improvements and do all kinds of things. Then what
happens is over a period of time, the taxes which are generated
from this project are captured by the Brownfield Authority and
then spent back to reimburse the expenses that were incurred in
the early development of this project. They are intended to
encourage and invite people to take sites that would normally be
loo expensive to touch, and this is a classic example. It's one of
the reasons this law has been passed over a long time. Its also
used extensively, as you're not surprised to find out, in
communities like Detroit, older urban communities where they
have all kinds of issues involving soil and whatever, and this is a
way of basically trying to get the properly on an equal basis with
a greenfield, maybe four miles away. So that if somebody is
looking at doing development on this site, they're say, if I take
that site, I got to pay to demolish it; I've got to do all this asphalt;
I have to take down the building; I have to do all this other stuff.
Whereas I could just go to a blank field sitting four miles west of
here, and that's the problem. It is intended to give these sites
an equal foofing in the competitive process for economic
development. Its a tremendous tool that's used throughout
Michigan. Essentially, what happens in that process, the taxes
which were supposed to be paid out of this site are captured by
the city. The tenants get a tax bill like normal. They write the
tax check to the city. The city collects the money, sends it down
to the county Brownfield Authority. The county Brownfield
Authority then sends the money back for reimbursement
purposes. The critical thing I want people to understand is the
schools do not lose a penny in this process, and really they're
all protected under the state law by this funding mechanism. It
was a decision that was made at the stale level by the
legislature to create this mechanism to try to gel properties on a
July 22, 2008
24882
competitive equal footing with properties and try to prevent more
sprawl and development out where there is no infrastructure
and those kinds of things. So I hope I did a half decent job on
that. I didn't put too many people to sleep.
Ms. McDermott:
Thanks. Okay. Also, I know that the site is obviously zoned
commercial. At any point along the early stages of this, did you
consider a mixed use possibility?
Mr. Amann:
We always look at the possibility of other mixed uses that would
make sense. The truth is, as you see in the Wonderland
development is a good example, when you start to look at a
development, your tenant mix, tenants kind of travel in packs.
For example, if you get a Barnes & Noble, then you get Bed,
Bath & Beyond, and you get a Linens & Things and those kind
of things whatever. So we looked at the potential uses here.
Certainly we looked at the potential of some mixed use, some
medical or office or those kinds of things. We believe the
demand, it's clear the demand for northeast Livonia is that there
is a tremendous demand for the kind of retail that we think we
can gel here, those medium and small size retail users that you
can find west of here very easily and other cities and other
places. So we fell that would be the most prudent thing to do
here because there is an abundance of the kind of office and
other space around the city at much lesser rales and whatever,
so it wouldn't be competitive based on the cost of this site.
Mrs. McDermott:
Okay. Kind of keeping with the mixed use possibility there,
Grand Sakwa developed the Midtown Square area at Fifteen
Mile and Coolidge.
Mr. Amann:
Correct.
Mrs. McDermott
All right. I realize that the housing market is not the best right
now.
Mr. Amann:
The what market?
Mrs. McDermott:
But possibly anything like a senior condo development area,
there was no consideration?
Mr. Amann:
Its interesting that you raise that. Grand Sakwa actually
developed the condominiums across Sl. Martins. So from a
total perspective, we have and we've done that. And we also
note the two senior lowers off to our east and the kinds of
housing we have around us. There's no question that Livonia is
blessed with enough housing right now, and we think that
residents of Livonia don't want any more competition from any
July 22, 2008
24883
more new homes. But we believe that this is the right fl to
blend in with the residential component we did on the north side
of St. Martins and the towers to the east. So there is no
intention to do any other kind of active adult or an independent
lifestyle or those kinds of facilities. The City of Livonia really is
one of the best municipalities around in the region, if not the
entire stale, for those kinds of facilities, and we respect that and
wouldn't even attempt to try to compete with them on that.
Mrs. McDermott: Okay. I think I'm going to do a couple questions and then I will
defer to some of my peers and probably come back. On the
site, I know we're looking at the site plan tonight, but are any of
the retailers identified at this point?
Mr. Amann: The only retailer we can identify for you is Kirby Coney Island.
That is because Kirby Coney was the Iasi tenant that we were
able to vacate out of the Livonia Mall, but it was all based on our
commitment to give him access to one of these out spots in the
middle of our out buildings to have Kirby Coney open in the new
rebirth there. We have no other retailers identified. The nature
of the commercial retail market today is such that even the big
box type users that you see out there, and you just saw the
decision with Lowe's last week, we are in the midst of
conversations trying to attract all the possibilities there, and
even when we think we have them there, then we find out 20
minutes later, no, we're not going to do it. So we don't know.
What we're trying to do and what we need to do is essentially
have the site approved. What's happened with many of the
major retailers, if you read the Wall Street Journal, The Detroit
News and Free Press cover, they cut back literally 50 percent or
more of the stores nationally, and then when they look at the
decision as to whether they want to go rationally, when they
rank stales, Michigan lends to be at the very low end of those
states because of our current economic issues and also the
unknown certainties of the Michigan business lax. That has
great implications for a lot of folks around here forthese kinds of
projects. So no, we don't. No big surprises. We have had
great interest expressed by Meijer, great interest expressed by
Wal -Marl. We've also had interest expressed, and we've tried
to entertain conversations with companies like Kohl's, J.C.
Penney's, Dick's Sporting Goods, Best Buy and all those kinds
of things. Those are all the kinds of retailers that are out there
Ioolang, trying to make decisions whether they're going to locale
any new store in Michigan, any new store in Livonia. We don't
have a deal with any of them other than Kirby. We don't know
until we actually get a deal with them, unfit they actually show
up at a closing, whether we'll ultimately have a deal. Our desire
though, because Grand Sakwa quite frankly has the financial
July 22, 2008
24884
and the experienlial strength to do this. We're here tonight with
you committing to the layout, the site, the feel and the elevations
so that we know that no matter who we end up there with, we
have the look of the buildings, we have the feel of the buildings,
the setbacks, and architectural interests. We also have the
delivery restrictions so there's no deliveries between 11:00 p.m.
to 7:00 a.m. and all those things. If someone wants to come
here, they have to come here by the rules that we have agreed
with you and are in place, to say this is the deal and this is the
kind of project we're going to do,high end, good looking. We
want to basically have it look better than what you see on
Haggerty. Residents deserve it. We know that. We think it will
serve the project well, and whoever intends to come here has to
be prepared to participant in that kind of development with those
kinds of rules.
Mrs. McDermott:
Okay. And then you said that you're committed to a grocery
component.
Mr. Amann:
Right.
Mrs. McDermott
And so that would probably narrow it down to Meijers and Wal -
mart for possibly big box stores.
Mr. Amann:
There's also Kroger's. That's right. For big box, Meijer's and
Wal -Marl are out there doing groceries. Yeah.
Mrs. McDermott
Okay. And both of those establishments are 24 -hours. Do you
have any preliminary restrictions on that?
Mr. Amann:
No, we don't. What we have for restrictions on the site relates
to the delivery hours and those kinds of things. This site has
operated in the past with the sea of asphalt, that there have
been things going on the site on a continuous basis. The way
we are designing the site and what we intend to do with the
layout and buffering and those kinds of things and materials, we
intend for this site to not impact those neighbors regardless of
what the operations area.
Mrs. McDermott:
Okay.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Hello, Mr. Amann. I have a number of questions as well. I'm
going to try to hit a few with highlights here just for discussion
and also to keep it fairly generic as to the look and feel of the
building as to specifics.
July 22, 2008
24885
Mr. Amann: The architect is here if you want to talk to him directly. There
are a few architects I trust to speak in public.
Mr. Wilshaw: That's very good. Thank you. You talked about functional
green spaces. We see on this diagram that there is a lot of
green in the properly, more so than what we've seen in some of
the other commercial developments in the city. But I have a
really poor imagination and its hard for me to picture what it's
going to look like from the ground level. Obviously, it's not
going to be just open fields of grass. So can you please talk to
me a little bit about those green spaces, what makes them
functional and in what sort of function they will serve.
Mr. Amann: I'm going to let Lisa speak to that because she designed this.
Lisa Lenfestey: I'll speak specifically to the areas that are going to need design
for storm water management.
Mr. Walsh: Ma'am, if we could have your name and address for the record.
Lisa Lenfesley, ECT, 2200 Commonwealth Boulevard, Ann Arbor, Michigan. As
for the green spaces that will be for storm water management,
there's the large area kind of in the center closer towards Seven
Mile and then the larger area near St. Martins Avenue.
Currently, we're planning that the area in the center is going to
be more of an open water area. The storm water would be
directed there, as much as we can get there first to provide
some preliminary settling of the sediment. Likely there's going
to be some kind of a water feature, a fountain of some sort.
We're actually going to use a pump system to slowly pump the
water up to the area near Sl. Martins and provide a wide
expansion area for the water to spread out, allow more
sediments to filler. We'll be using some shallow wetlands -type
plantings in that area to help promote the filtration of the
pollutants as well. We haven't specifically selected those plants
yet. Dr. Tilton is the wetlands expert. I'm more of the storm
water expert. So we don't know what they look like, but we are
going to choose them so they are as aesthetically pleasing as
possible. I'll lel the architect speak to the rest.
Mark Drane, Rogvoy Architects, 32500 Telegraph Road, Suite 250, Bingham
Farms, Michigan. Good evening. To add to the comments, you
can see the center area. We have an area for outdoor seating,
and as you can see, throughout all the green spaces, you'll see
pedestrian pathways. The areas you see with the dark circles
around them, we're calling them pedestrians nodes where you
can have benches, planters, pedestrian light fixtures, integrated
into the green space. Again, they're working on the plants, but
July 22, 2008
24886
Mark, if you could pan up along the St. Martins open space
towards the senior center. Along the entire perimeter, you'll see
that we have landscape plans that include evergreens and
deciduous trees to provide a buffer between all the residents,
seniors and the attached condos development right there.
Another thing that doesn't show up in the plan that we gathered
from our study session the other night, is that the 23 parking
spaces along the side here, we'll increase the green space
there to provide a better buffer. We also talked about providing
more green space and removing the dumpsler behind Building
B, I believe it is. Right there, we're going to put those up
against the building, move the building further to the east to
create a better green space.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thanks, Mr. Drane. The green spaces behind the senior
properly, the McNamara Tower, is not going to have any
connection to the McNamara Tower. Is that correct?
Mr. Drane: Correct. The other thing we talked about in our study session,
loo, is providing a pedestrian pathway from the sidewalk at Sl.
Martins to travel along the west side of Building A and down
through the site. I'm also going to have a sidewalk where we've
eliminated the 23 parking spaces, continue that sidewalk down
through this pedestrian connection from the public right -0f -way
at St. Martins but not anything integrating the development so
people can walkthrough.
Mr. Wilshaw: My next question has to do with what Ms. McDermott touched
on, the mixed use concept of development, maybe incorporating
residential and other elements into this. In a sense, since
Grand Sakwa has been involved already in the creation of the
condos on the north side of Sl. Martins, there is in a sense a
residential component as part of this property. It's not directly
connected to it but it's certainly adjacent to it. I don't get the
feeling looking at this plan as it stands right now that residential
element is really connected to or a part of this development as
they're looking at the back of Building B, which is a very large
big box. Now, I know that Grand Sakwa develops very
attractive backs of buildings in comparison to some that I've
been by other developers, but is there a possibility that this plan
could incorporate that condominium development in such a way
that it looks more natural, that it's encompassing that
condominium development, such as rotating buildings so that
people in those condos dont have to look at the backs of the
buildings?
Mr. Amann: The answer is no. For the benefit of the residents, lel me
explain that. Essentially, in order to achieve what you're talking
July 22, 2008
24887
about, we would have to rotate the large tenants in the back
sideways and open up so that the entire development would
then be bookended by the residential development. We don't
think it's appropriate for those folks to essentially have to be a
part and parcel in the face and an integral part of this
commercial development in that manner. I don't know if you
have a landscape plan, Mark, that you could put up. Our
intention is to create such a significant buffer area along the
south side of St. Martins. You talk about the back walls. We
give special importance to the back walls of our projects
because they act as a buffer for those folks, creating as much of
a quite zone, dead zone for them to give them protection.
They'll be close to this project. They can enter it off Sl. Martins,
but they wont have to live with it day-to-day based on the way
these buildings are going to be laid out and restrictions we're
putting on at night. Effectively, for us to turn those buildings
would make them part of a development that they didn't sign up
to be a part of when they bought those units. So we want to try
to use physically the structures we can to try to give them as
much protection and then, beyond that, the landscaping and the
buffering and overdoing of all that to try to further enhance that.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Of course I'm sensitive to the fact that Sl. Martins is also a
public roadway and cars are going to be traveling along that
road and have to look at the back of the building or these
condos residents. So it is certainly a public access.
Mr. Amann:
No question, and it's going to look 100 times better than what
they look at now. Right now, we understand what's going on
there. That's why we tried to pay special attention to what the
back of these buildings will look like and the buffer for those.
With the berms we're going to have and the trees, literally the
first several feet off the ground will not be visible from the other
side of the street. It will be several feel up before they can even
get a sight line. So essentially cars behind the building and
trucks and the actual larger trucks will be down in wells and
things like that. So we expect it to be such sufficient buffer and
screening that their privacy will be respected in the process.
Mr. Wilshaw:
So the residents that live in the condos or vehicles that are
traveling along St. Martins, when they look at the back of these
retail developments, they will not be seeing trucks; they won't be
seeing dumpster enclosures; they won't be seeing transformers
or utility boxes. Those will all be concealed through the use of
berming.
Mr. Amann:
The mechanicals will all be screened. Theyre going to basically
see the tops of the masonry wall. They may see a truck pulling
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. The other question I have, I do have questions specific to
the Jo -Ann Fabrics property in the future. I will reserve those for
now because of the fad that we are talking general site, but I
will say that the Jo -Ann Fabrics, as it stands as an existing
building, is relatively awkward on the site in the sense that it
doesn't front Seven Mile. Its kind of attached to the back of
Sears. Can you at least explain to me what is going to be the
front of Jo -Ann Fabrics when this is completed?
Mr. Amann: I'm going to lel Bill take that question, but let me tell you, we can
take you with us to talk to Jo -Ann because we've been making
the same points to them as well.
July 22, 2008
24888
out. I won't promise they'll never see a truck, but certainly when
trucks are in there in the wells and whatever, they should be
visibly screened.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Now the other question I have and, again, this is going to
the look and feel of the property as opposed to anything very
specific, but Retail B, the largest building that is on here,
because of its size, is limited to somewhere in the neighborhood
of a handful of stores. I probably can get them on one hand, I'm
sure, and we know what those names are. We've already
mentioned them here as possible tenants. Have you given any
consideration to or what influence would it have on your
development if that building was not the size it is currently, if it
was split into say two buildings of roughly 75,000 square feet
each or something in that range?
Mr. Amann:
There are no retailers that size doing the kind of business you
need to draw a grocery store on this site. As I addressed
earlier, the size of our uses and the types of our uses are not
part of the deliberations tonight. You may want to ask about it,
but the fad is, we already having the zoning in place to do any
of those sizes and any of those uses.
Mr. Wilshaw:
All right, thank you, sir.
Mr. Walsh:
We understand that, Mr. Amann, but he's asking ...
Mr. Amann:
I understand that.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Thank you. Yes, we are talking about the general look and feel.
Mr. Amann:
Lel me tell you. Our interests are aligned on that. If we could
have a 75,000 square foot user come in, if there were such an
animal to do that kind of thing, absolutely. They just aren't out
there in terms of those kinds of uses.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. The other question I have, I do have questions specific to
the Jo -Ann Fabrics property in the future. I will reserve those for
now because of the fad that we are talking general site, but I
will say that the Jo -Ann Fabrics, as it stands as an existing
building, is relatively awkward on the site in the sense that it
doesn't front Seven Mile. Its kind of attached to the back of
Sears. Can you at least explain to me what is going to be the
front of Jo -Ann Fabrics when this is completed?
Mr. Amann: I'm going to lel Bill take that question, but let me tell you, we can
take you with us to talk to Jo -Ann because we've been making
the same points to them as well.
July 22, 2008
24889
Mr. Wilshaw:
I'm sure.
Mr. Amann:
Yeah.
William Eisenberg, Livonia Phoenix, L.L.C., 28470 Thirteen Mile Road,
Farmington Hills, Michigan 48334. Jo -Ann Fabrics has been a
very difficult challenge for us. They have a co -tenancy provision
that tied into the Value City deal. Once Value City went away,
their rent became free. They are silting there for free. They
have a lease that runs for another four years. They have asked
us to respect their rights under that lease. We are spending a
great deal of money to separate them from the mall. The cost is
well over $300,000. Obviously, our preference would be to
demolish the building and move them into the main area of the
development. They've refused. We have a continual dialogue
going with them, but for the time being, we really don't have any
choice. The same situation holds true for Baker's Square.
There's three or four years left on that lease. As soon as that
lease is over, we'll redevelop that property.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Eisenberg, then at lead can you assure me that in the event
the Jo -Ann Fabrics, in four years time or whatever is appropriate
or maybe earlier if they decide to voluntarily relocate to one of
your other buildings, will that part of the site be able to be
redeveloped in a way that's consistent with the rest of the site?
Is there going to be parking? Is it going to become another
retail building?
Mr. Eisenberg:
It's very difficult for me to look into the future and determine
what's going to happen on that particular site. I think a lot of it is
predicated on what we end up with in terns of tenancy, what
happens with Sears. The face of retailing is changing almost on
a daily basis today.
Mr. Wilshaw:
This is a development that has been here for long time, and
when it's redeveloped, it's going to be here for a long time. I do
want to look into that crystal ball as much as I can because we
need to know what we're going to get and going to have for a
very long pen od of time.
Mr. Eisenberg:
If you look at it, it's not a very attractive location for any retailer.
In terms of future use, it's hard to imagine the ability to attract
anyone there. In terms of recycling the space, I'm not sure.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay.
July 22, 2008
24890
Mr. Eisenberg:
More than likely it will end up as parking, but I can't make that
commitment now.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Sure. I think that's good enough for now. I'll let my other
colleagues make comments if they wish. Thank you.
Mr. Amann:
On that space if we do anything with it, we will of course be
back as to what happens with d. So we'll have the opportunity
to participate in that assuming you're still on the Planning
Commission at that time.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I hope to be.
Ms. Scheel:
Hi. The spot between Sears and Jo -Ann Fabrics where it says
landlord area, is that spot owned by Sears or owned by you?
Mr. Eisenberg:
That's part of our development. We will use that as a
maintenance and management office.
Ms. Scheel:
So the landscaping that shows in front of that, you will be
landscaping around Jo -Ann Fabrics?
Mr. Eisenberg:
Yes.
Ms. Scheel:
Just to follow-up on what Mr. Wilshaw asked, the entrance into
Jo -Ann Fabrics right now, is that entrance going to slay there
then?
Mr. Eisenberg:
Yes.
Ms. Scheel:
That will be the only entrance from that side. There won't be an
entrance from this other side?
Mr. Eisenberg:
That's right.
Ms. Scheel:
Will there be an entrance from the landlord area?
Mr. Eisenberg:
No.
Ms. Scheel:
No. Okay.
Mr. Amann:
In the d=emolition of the process because of how married the
mall is with the Sears building, we have to go through a fairly
intricate process to put up weight bearing walls to try to protect
that building in the process. So this is going to be a fairly
interesting and developed process to do that and not cheap by
any means.
July 22, 2008
24891
Mr. Eisenberg:
The west wall is a structural wall, so it is a very difficult
undertaking. It's a very expensive undertaking and not one of
our choice, but we really don't have a choice in this matter.
Ms. Vartoogian:
With respect to the demolition, are you doing anything to lessen
the impact on the residents that surround the mall?
Mr. Eisenberg:
Oh, absolutely. There will be dust control measures. We
narrowed our choice down to one of the most reputable demo
contractors actually in the country. They do work all around the
country. We will sit down with the Building Department,
Planning Department. We will come up all the measures that
are required to maintain a peaceful environment for the
residents around it. It's not to say that there's not going to be
dust and there's not going to be debris, but our game plan is to
demolish that building over a three-month period. After that, we
should be home free.
Ms. Vartoogian:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Eisenberg:
I might add that if timing works, we'll be demolishing during the
late fall and early winter. I think that's going to help as well.
Mr. Walsh:
If there are no any additional comments or questions for the
petitioners, we'll go to the audience. Thank you, gentlemen. Is
there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or
against this petition? Please step forward.
Ben Tiseo, 18634 Doris. I live just south of Seven Mile Road just west of the
project. I did send an email to the city. I trust it will gel into
everybodys files at that point, certainly for the City Council. I
had a couple comments. Most of the questions that I had have
been answered. Regarding the Jo -Ann Fabrics store, the west
wall that needs to be built here somehow needs to be
addressed architecturally. We see no elevations. We see
nothing there. The question that I have also is that they show a
pedestrian node here, yet they are saying there will be no real
transition between those two buildings. Then I question why
there is a pedestrian node there. One of the things that to some
degree is troublesome, but I understand dealing with Sears and
people that don't want to move, is that if this area is going to be
a maintenance area, is it possible to take a look at this as a
thrurlrive to help better divert the traffic actually by this space?
It almost seems that this landlord area is basically a leftover
space until Jo -Ann Fabrics' lease runs out and then they can
demolish it. Maybe it's another way to help with the vehicular
traffic on the site. I understand that these are existing walls, the
July 22, 2008
24892
east and north wall, but the west wall will be a brand new wall.
So I'd ask to see those elevations as well.
Mr. Walsh:
Mr. Amann, I'm going to ask that you hold your comments until
we have heard from everyone. Mr. Tiseo, as you know, we will
make note of those. Those will be callback items for site plan
specific issues.
Mr. Tiseo:
Okay. Good. If we could go down to the Sears store. Again, I
know you can't move Sears, but currently right now, there is a
mall entrance from Sears into the mall. Do we know what's
going to happen to that? Do we know if Sears is going to
maintain that at all?
Mr. Walsh:
We don't know as a city body, and when Mr. Amann addresses
us, he may be able to answer that question.
Mr. Tiseo:
If it is, then I ask, if there's going to be an entrance there, then
this has to be addressed by that. You cant just have a six foot
loft in front of that major entrance going into Sears. Some
spaces can be taken out and there can be some other kind of
landscape or node that's there as in other areas. I think we just
can't ignore the Sears store. One of the things that I'd like to
see is that these two buildings that are in front. I believe they
are about 9,000 square feel. They need to create a sense of
presence to the site. They're not doing that. What they need to
do, they need to be rotated 90 degrees so that they face Seven
Mile Road and that there's a formal presentation of those
buildings to both the pedestrians and also to the vehicular
traffic. It's been done at Wonderland. You can take a look at
that and there are other developments. So those need to be
relocated. The other thing that needs to be done is this traffic
light area. There's nothing being addressed on the boulevard.
There needs to be a sense of entrance to this grand new
development. There is none. There's just a traffic light. Again,
if you take a look at Wonderland and the other centers theyve
done, they have addressed that. They have not addressed that
here. I would further ask that these pedestrian nodes be
extended to the walkway on Seven Mile Road so that us that do
walk down it halfway are invited to come onto the site. Right
now, it's kind of disjointed. Here's the walk on Seven Mile
Road, and 30 - 40 feet away is the development. It has to be
something that would engage the pedestrians on that site. One
other thing I did ask is that these 23 spaces be eliminated. I
think it's more important to provide a buffer to the residential.
Mr. Walsh:
Mr. Amann has already indicated in his comments that would
occur.
July 22, 2008
24893
Mr. Tiseo:
Terrific. And my final comment is regarding the elevations that
have been presented. I'm a little puzzled by them because I
see there's two totally different, radically different designs on the
buildings, both near Seven Mile Road and the buildings in the
back. There's no consistency or continuity of the design or
materials on those buildings. There should be one cohesive
design for all the buildings on the properly, whether it be
materials, details, texture. I don't see that here. So those
should be addressed as well. Thank you for your time. And 1,
as a family member, am looking forward to the day when we
can walk to the mall and enjoy it again. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, Mr. Tiseo. Good evening.
Claudia Stanton, 19658 Melvin. Good evening. I have a couple issues I'd like to
address. From what I've heard tonight, it sounds like this is a
done deal and we just live with it So I'd like to make sure that
this group that put the condos up is a little bit more receptive to
some of the comments from the neighbors that live in the
subdivision around the condos and the mall. My first concern is
about the traffic, where the entrance openings are and the
semis that will be coming down Sl. Martins. I understand in a
meeting that there was a couple weeks ago some of the
businesses in the area, they were told that they didn't think that
the issue of the traffic light area at Middlebell and Sl. Marlins
was a problem. I beg to differ with you. I dont know how many
times we have pulled up to there, not even been to the light, and
seen people run red lights. We're also concerned about the
semis that pull there. We've already dealt wth the traffic school
for semis through the summer and we're done with semis. The
timeframes for the buildings, stores, that you want to put in here.
This is residential. I hope that you do look at this issue. We're
not wanting 24-hour stores in our neighborhood. With the
demolition, September is new to us. We heard the end of
October.
Mr. Walsh:
Ma'am, I'm going to ask if you could just direct your comments
to the Planning Commission, I'd appreciate that.
Ms. Stanton:
Okay. Thank you. Asbestos in the building, will this issue be
taken care of before they start demolition? Who will enforce the
noise ordinance when the building construction starts? When
they started the projects for the condominiums, there were
several times I had to slop as they started well before 7:00 a.m.
Al 5:00 a.m., they were dropping pipes. Other than that, good
luck.
July 22, 2008
24894
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, ma'am. Is there anybody else in the audience
wishing to speak for or against this item? If you would please
step forward.
Andrea Kolhoff, 9903 Flamingo. Good evening. I'm a resident in the area behind
the Wonderland redevelopment, and since the redevelopment,
my neighbors and myself have put up with increased traffic
congestion, increased noise, crime, a decline in home values
and this is over and above the current economic times,
according to real estate agents who try to sell the homes on
Omngelawn, which borders right behind Wonderland. I'm very
concerned about having my neighbors to the north go through
some of the same issues that we're going through. I realize that
these centers must be redeveloped. Looking at the plan, I'm a
little bit disappointed that it wasn't more of a mixed use
development. We have a great senior population and I believe
that from people that are having to move out of our
neighborhood and into senior developments that are currently
existing, they're on wailing lists. I would have loved to have
seen senior housing, medical offices, walkable stores,
restaurants, maybe a sports bar, that type of thing, and maybe
an updated theater, which I know that there was a theater there
but it was extremely outdated and smelled. No one wanted to
go spend their money and live there. By creating that type of
thing, we could have given Livonia a downtown or that type of
environment that we really need. Well, you know, we've been
presented by the developer with some ideas, and I do have
some suggestions. I have a four year old and I love to take him
walking. I would never take him walking to Wonderland. The
difficulty in getting from store to store is tremendous, and one of
the things that I look at at this plan is that these buildings are so
far apart, you've got to cross over traffic patterns in order to get
from store to store. A suggestion I would make with this large
detention pond in the center is make it a park -like selling with a
fountain or something and create a park. Maybe some
benches. Maybe an ice cream parlor would come into the
development and you could go get an ice cream and sit on the
bench. Unfortunately, its only three months of the year, but that
would be very nice to do. Locale Buildings C through G around
this park, facing it, so that ... and the parking round it so that
you could actually park and enter in the development. I do
realize that there is some problems with the buildings not facing
the main thoroughfares, so there might be some challenges with
the signage. Leave the main entrance on Seven Mile curb cut
at the light and sweep the driveway to the east and actually
connect that up to, well, it's kind of a drlve right before the
parking lot for the big box. So you wouldn't be cutting the main
thoroughfare for off of Seven Mile, wouldn't be cutting through
July 22, 2008
24895
the stores to get up to the big box. And then finally, and it's
already been mentioned, about maintaining no 24 -hours and
really keeping the harmony with the neighborhood. That really
helped with the Wonderland not having semis come in there at
all hours and loading, not having semis parking in people's
backyards. I appreciate your time and consideration. Thank
you.
Kenneth Oeslede, 30170 Vassar. We live in the Hunters Brook Condominium
site. I know that there's that great big asphalt graveyard there.
Its been there since we've been there, 10 - 11 years. Can you
get this picture on line? I had no idea ...
Mr. Walsh:
Mark, this isn't available on line, is it?
Mr. Taormina:
No.
Mr. Oesterle:
Okay. So, I mean there was no way for us to have any idea.
So this space that is green there, is that where that old parking
lot is?
Mr. Walsh:
The space that you're looking at starling from the right hand
side of the picture, Mark, if you can go over Sears. There is the
Sears store itself, and then its parking in front and behind. The
space that's shaded with grays, greens and browns is the site
that is under consideration this evening.
Mr. Oesterle:
Okay. Isn't this spot right here where that diagonal line is, isn't
that the Hunters Brook Condominiums?
Mr. Walsh:
Yes. I'm sorry. I thought you were looking over to the side.
Mr. Oesterle:
No.
Mr. Walsh:
Right where the little hand is going right now, where that
curvature is, those are the condominiums.
Mr. Oesterle:
Oh. Those are the condominiums. Okay. Because where that
green is, that's where all that asphalt has been for umpteen
years.
Mr. Walsh:
Yes. That's cored.
Mr. Oesterle:
And they're going to put something green in there. Because my
concern was, you know, is that where they're going to put their
dumpslers? You know, I mean, we've heard of people having
problems. I guess pedestrians, the fence that's there is pretty
high, but we put a fence up because people where jumping
July 22, 2008
24896
through and now you know what the kids do? They jump their
bikes over the fence now because it's not tall enough. So we
created something that we didn't intend. The fumes from cars
and trucks, I guess, probably would be dissipated by the time it
would gel to our locations. Noise from people, HVAC machines
that are running on the buildings and things like that, can keep
people awake at night, and the lighting, which is on poles, I am
assuming that it would be facing in and blocked or something
because we've had real problems being near commercial places
and they can't sleep at night because of the lights.
Mr. Walsh: Sir, that would be one of the specific items that would come
back for us to look at. When we get to a specific site plan, we
know exactly what's going in there.
Mr. Oeslerle: Right, and I'm not familiar with all the legalities that the city has
set up for all this stuff, assuming that it would be handled in
whatever the code currently is. Okay. I hadn't seen this picture
so I didn't have any idea what that parking lot was going to
become.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir. Is there anyone else in the audience? Good
evening, sir.
Kevin Fitzsimmons, 29623 Nottingham Circle. I'm on the Board of Directors at
Nottingham Village. I have seen the plans before. I just wanted
to say a few things about it even though I realize that our view
from Nottingham Village is going to be improved 1,000 percent
from what it is currently. We are somewhat concerned about
the large store in the back, and I'd like to reiterate what some of
my neighbors have indicated, that we do not want a 24 hour
store in that area. We're also concerned about the truck traffic
on St. Martins. We'd like to keep that limited, especially during
daylight hours and well into the evening. Concerned about the
landscaping berms, bushes, trees just south of Sl. Martins so
that it looks aesthetically pleasing and blocks as much of the
large big box store in the back that obviously seems its going to
be there regardless of whether its going to be that size or
there's going to be two halves of that. A gentlemen just
mentioned about lighting, which I wanted to speak on. I believe
the lighting on St. Martins currently is inadequate as is. We
have four standing lamps on the frontage of Nottingham Village
and I would also like some sort of lighting increased on St.
Martins and also along the berm of the north part of the
property, if possible. I understand that could be a problem as
far as bedroom windows are concerned, but I'm sure that
there's lighting engineers who can deal with that issue. I want
to reiterate the problem at the corner of Sl. Martins and
July 22, 2008
24897
Middlebelt, about the traffic light there. I've seen numerous
problems. That definitely needs to be addressed. The last thing
I would like to say is, I don't know really how to word this other
than to say, I was a teenager at one time and I used to hang out
Friday and Saturday nights at the mall. Even though I'm sure
the statute of limitations is up, I think I might have committed an
act of vandalism or two. I would like to, if we could increase the
police presence in the area, I would certainly appreciate it. I
understand this isn't going to open until 2010, but I at least
wanted to express that interest that we're concerned about
crime and vandalism in the area. The lighting may help with
that. Thank you for your time.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Chair, is it possible to ask this gentleman a question or two
since he's up here?
Mr. Walsh: Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw: Sir, I just want to take the opportunity, since you're here and you
are representing the Nottingham Condo property, if I could just
ask a question or two if you don't mind.
Mr. Fitzsimmons: Certainly.
Mr. Wilshaw: Are you okay with the plans as presented since you're the ones
that have to live behind this development? I really respect your
opinion. Are you okay with having potertially one large and one
smaller retailer basically across the street from you as it's
presented here?
Mr. Fitzsimmons: Personally, when I originally saw the plans, which was a couple
weeks ago, I was okay with it. A couple residents have
indicated that they do not like that idea. I don't know enough
about architecture or I've never lived in an area like this with a
store so nearby. Mr. Amann has indicated to me that the berm
will be such that it will block the negative aspects of looking at
the back of a store, and I happen to believe that he is a man of
his word and will do the necessary architecture and landscaping
that will please the residents of Nottingham Village.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. And do you, as representative of the condominium
development, have any desire to be incorporated into this
development in any way as far as pedestrian pathways or those
types of elements, or would you like to just slay in your own little
spot and not have this property affect you?
July 22, 2008
24898
Mr. Fitzsimmons: Well, my personal thought is that I didn't want any access at all,
but I have not discussed this with residents. As I see the
drawing the way it is, it looks like there is one access road. I
personally believe if that's handled properly that would be of
benefit to the residents also, but I can't speak for all of them.
It's just my belief that the way it looks now, if it's done properly, I
think it would be a benefit to the neighborhood and the
community.
Mr. Wilshaw: I very much appreciate your opinions. Thank you.
Dennis Brukwinski, 30033 Fairfax. That's in the back of Livonia Mall. I've been a
resident there for 25 years and I've seen a lot of changes in the
Livonia Mall and I've seen it all the way to its decline. The last
time when they placed the parking lot, when Livonia Mall placed
the parking lot in the back, we really fought for a berm and a
green zone to separate our residential area from the retail area.
And actually, the way it is right now, I discovered that bene area
which is 25 feet, with it bermed up oath a lot of pine trees, pine
trees make a big difference in a lot of aesthetic viewpoints. So if
any kind of landscaping is done, it would be great to have a lot
of pine trees and the height would be involved. I don't know
how big that building is, but if you bene it up and you do have a
lot of pine trees, that would be good. Having walkways into the
center from the residential area or bike paths or having bike
racks over there would be good. Seeing that I have to travel
quite a distance right now to get any kind of groceries or do
anything, it would be nice to tie in the mall somewhat to the
residential neighborhood but yet still be able keep our privacy.
I'm looking forward to seeing this land developed because I'm
seeing green is good. I've been living with that cement for a
long time and the only green that was there was green pine
trees that were right in the back on St. Martins that kept the
lights from coming in that gave us an aesthetic sense when we
looked across the street and we saw nothing but green. It
reminded us of up north. It was just very well done. I know St.
Martins had a lot of flooding in the past with the way the water
goes and everything and Sl. Marlins. A lot of times we'd be
driving down Sl. Marlins and boom, we're right into some water.
So when they built the condos in the back loo, I was looking at
the way that all is. You're going to have to look at a lot of the
drainage problems in that area to make sure that the water
would go the right way and not be backed up or nothing. This is
over the history that I've been living there that I spotted a lot of
this. It's good to have a lot of green areas. Probably maybe a
possibility would be like a farmer's market like they have in
Royal Oak where people all gather and be able to go over there.
Some sort of pavilion or something where people could come
July 22, 2008
24899
together and have crafts or selling organic sluff or whatever.
Just a place where people could gather would be a nice thing to
do too. Green areas are good, and hopefully for agrocery
store, I know we don't want to be specific as of yet, but my wife
travels all the way to 14 Mile and Orchard Lake Road to go to a
Whole Foods supermarket. That would be something
specialized, and being that I'm the UPS driver that delivered to
Twelve Oaks Mall for the Iasi 20 - 30 years, I know what kind of
stores go in there. I always fell that Livonia Mall needed
specially stores, some kind of specialty store. I dont know how
well they're going to be able to compete with malls like Twelve
Oaks, but if you had some sort of specially stores in there would
really, really boost the area up and probably draw people from
other areas to that area. I mean, that's what I would like to see
there. I don't know about my neighbors. I did have a problem
with the asbestos. I thought about that being such an old mall
but that was pretty much addressed already. I'm looking
forward to the development of this, but I'm hoping that all
promises that are made are kept as far as what the residents,
the people living and I'm looking forward to being able to shop
there again and not being able to need a car. In today's word
the way it is with the price of fuel, it sure would be nice to be
able to bike or walk to wherever you had to go. I also heard that
even the bus system, Livonia was going to have its own bus
system, and somehow someway I heard something somewhere
that said that in these national parks, they're running on busses
with natural gas. I heard also that these busses are actually
made in Livonia. I'm not sure if that's true or not.
Mr. Walsh: I don't know that, sir. We're getting a little bit off subject matter.
Mr. Bmkwinski: Okay. Well, the aesthetic sense and the berms are good. I
have a little concern about the size of that big building. I know
you probably need that there and everything, but I'm concerned
about, you know, the unsightliness of it or being able to look out
the window because a lot of my neighbor on Sl. Marlins do face
that area, but if they're facing a good green area with pines well
developed like that it should be quite nice. That's about all I
have to say.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to
speak on this item?
Kathleen Lancaster, 10066 Hartel. Hello. Good evening. I was also on the
Wonderland Mall committee. This looks great and everything,
but my concerns are, of course, the water basin in the back
there. The water basin that we have right now is, I dont know if
anybody's been back there, but lots of bugs and there's a
July 22, 2008
24900
gentleman who lives there and I feel sorry for his house. You
have a lot of seniors in that area around there and residential.
Whatever that big box is going to be, I wonder. I hope it's not
going to be 24 hours because I feel sorry for those people. The
traffic would be horrendous. Right now, during the days, the
traffic is horrendous at the Wonderland Mall. So this is kind of
seeing little bit and pieces of the Wonderland Mall to me. It
looks great. You could use some type of food courts in there for
these seniors or places for seniors to go since there is a lot of
seniors around there. I would have liked to have seen some
type of senior complex there, but we're just the people who live
in Livonia, unfortunately. I would like to see more improvements
done and not 24-hour and definitely not something that's
already at Wonderland Mall. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional questions or comments? Seeing no
one coming forward, then the public hearing is closed at this
point. The petitioner has the opportunity to address some of the
issues and answer additional questions from the
commissioners.
Mr. Amann: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll try to run down in order in an
accumulative fashion for them to answer the questions as they
were brought up. We appreciate everything everybody had to
say because its always helpful for us in terms of us learning
about the process and the project. We had questions about Jo -
Ann's building. The architecture of that building is planned to be
compatible with what we're doing on the rest of the site. It will
be upgraded. The area of the sidewalk over there for those who
will be parking and using the office management space in there
as well so its functional and also if people want to walk from
there around to the other sides or whatever. You already
referenced the 22 spaces being gone. As to the design issues,
as to the rotations of buildings and layouts like this, we are
absolutely comfortable with the layout we are proposing
because we want to achieve the ltind of small feel and in close
spaces and whatever. Mark Drane will be able to speak on that
at length if anybody has any more questions on it. Questions
regarding concerns on St. Martins. First lel me indicate that we
actually have a note on the plans that we will have signage, and
we are also already in the process of preparing easement
agreements with the Sears property so that we will not be
having any semi -truck traffic on St. Marlins as a result of this
project. Its intended to essentially enter off of Seven Mile, work
its way through, and then exit out along through the back
through the Sears property out to Middlbelt Road that way. We
intend to have signs, and we've already made notations in the
plans. Hopefully, it will be an enforceable matter so Livonia
July 22, 2008
24901
Police will have the ability to assist us to make sure that stays
the case because we realize for everybody back there that it's a
significant issue. We've heard the concerns about St. Martins,
the light at St. Martins and Middlebelt. We're in the process of
wrapping up the finalized traffic study that you would normally
see in final detail site plan issues. So we're looking at that as
well. Hopefully, that will give people some comfort in that
regard. The issues regarding mixed use. We talked about that
already. Restaurants and sports bars, its our desire to have that
kind of feel in some of these middle buildings so people will be
having uses where they will be silting outside and camaraderie
and walking between places. Our intention is the way the site is
laid out is to have that center drive off the light. We do have
pedestrian crosswalks and pedestrian walkway areas. We've
got brick pavers and stamped concrete areas essentially
highlighting areas where we expect there to be potential
intersections and whatever. We have found it works well to give
notice to not only people who are walking but people who are
driving that this is an intersection because in the old shopping
center layouts, people tended to just fly through parking lots
without regard to whether its an aisle or there's cross traffic or
whatever. So we're comfortable and we tried to make sure that
we've identified clearly marked pedestrian walking areas so the
people that do want to walk will have a safe time doing so. The
issue as related to semis on St. Martins, we've already
addressed, but also in the development agreement and also on
the site, we have specific provisions that semis are not allowed
to be behind the building at night. They're not allowed to be
idling when they're there. So we expect that area to be cleared
out, and we don't allow deliveries between 11:00 p.m. and 7:00
a.m. So that issue is written in an enforceable manner for the
city as well so that, again, they can issue tickets and do what
they need to do to make sure that does not become a problem.
The concerns about the green spaces along Hunters Grove, we
intend to also meet further with that condominium project to talk
to them about what we're doing in terms of elimination of those
spaces and that area so they have a comfort level about what's
going to go on there and see if they have any additional
concerns. I think as you've already seen, they're going to find
it's a dramatic improvement over what they have now as it
relates to the buffering they're going to have with the use of the
Spruce and Pine trees, those kinds of things and the area of the
green space. The lighting concerns that were raised, essentially
Mr. Taormina indicated we've already submitted a photometric
plan. It's our obligation under your photometric requirements to
make sure that we don't have light essentially filtering off site.
All our light fixtures have to be shaded downward casting light
and used in a discrete way. When we go to security level
July 22, 2008
24902
lighlings, we do that as well. Wall lights are also shaded so
they're downward casting. While I'm discussing light, Mr.
Fitzsimmons raised the issue about trying to provide extra
lighting on the berm. We'll explore that but we have to do
whatever we do within the boundaries of the photometric
ordinance. I'm not sure what we can do there, but we'll certainly
look at that as we move forward in this process. Noise, there
was a question about enforcement of noise at night. Again,
there are obviously noise ordinances and there are disturbing
the peace ordinances. As it relates to the site itself, the design
itself, all mechanical equipment will be screened and will not be
allowing truck traffic to sit around at night. So as it relates to the
events occurring on the site, other than traffic that would be
coming down Sl. Martins for people to the north or otherwise,
the site itself should not be a generation point for noise in terns
of mechanical equipment or the use of outside speakers or
anything like that. So hopefully that issue will be resolved. Not
only do we have the depiction and the explanation of that on the
plans, but we also have that as part of the development
agreement as well. The last speaker regarding the berm along
St. Marlins and also Mr. Fitzsimmons' concern, we actually have
an area that is 45 feet wide there, which is much wider than is
really required. We designed it that way to provide the ability to
have a berth level that will undulate between 5 and 7 feel in
those areas, so we can have the ground portion of the berm
itself be substantial. There are also some existing pine trees
that we are going to try to preserve that are really in great shape
and provide great buffering already. So we're going to
essentially provide a well of a berm around those trees to
preserve those tress, but then the berm itself because of the
extra width we're dedicating along the back, we ought to be able
to get a berth that is essentially no less than 5 feet high, maybe
undulating up to 7 feet, and then when you put the Spruce trees
on top of that, we expect it to be substantial, maybe 13 feet high
upon planting of screening, and then as they grow, even more.
So we're comfortable about the screening that will provide for
the trucks and the rear of the store. As to the questions and
concerns about the water basin and mosquitoes in those areas,
these pond areas up in the northwest corner are, in fact, a
dynamic system. They are part of a tiered drainage system that
the water will never be more than a foot deep in those sections
and they will drain within 24 hours of the actual occurrence of
water going in there. So when residents look at it, a lot of times
they're just going to see dry open green space. When they do
f11 with water, that is the highest point of this site. They will all
drain downward and be discharged at an agricultural rale out of
the system. So we are absolutely confident that when we have
water, it won't be standing more than 24 hours. We are not
July 22, 2008
24903
going to have a mosquito concern, but we do have provisions as
part of the maintenance for mosquito maintenance and those
kinds of things for the entirety of this site. The last thing we
want to try to do is introduce that kind of risk, especially by the
senior lowers and up by where all the residents are. So by
design that should not be an issue. With that, I hope I covered
everything and tried to hit all the points. I'm glad to answer any
more questions you might have. The architect is still here.
Before you, we are looking for obviously your approval of
essentially this basis of this preliminary plan which lays out the
elements that Mr. Taormina referenced.
Mr. Walsh:
Ms. Scheel?
Ms. Scheel:
I know the Sears store is not your project, but do you know what
they're planning on doing with that?
Mr. Amann:
I'm sorry. I missed that. I had a note here and I missed it. You
see the little green area off to the side of the Sears building
there?
Ms. Scheel:
Yes.
Mr. Amann:
That is, in fact, the entrance that they have now. They are
planning to convert that from our current understanding to be a
very minor entrance area and so there's a patio and green
space out there. The major entrance is now and intends to be
the Seven Mile access that they have there. So we're working
with Sears as to the design of that, but that's their intent to have
that be essentially a very minor entrance point because from a
security perspective and cash registers and everything else,
they don't want to have to double up all their efforts there, but
there will be access to the store for people who park from there,
but it's not intended to be a major point access.
Ms. Scheel:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
This might be a little bit off the subject of what we're looking at
here tonight, but I do have a curiosity. Will there be any type of
on-site management office atthis development?
Mr. Amann:
Absolutely. Right now, we're showing that landlord area in the
Jo -Ann's building as being the on-site management throughout
the process. It may remain if we don't get rid of the Jo -Ann's
building long term. Otherwise, it is our practice to typically to
have something available on site.
July 22, 2008
24904
Mr. Eisenberg: With a project of this magnitude, there will be on-site
maintenance people, properly managers will be on the site on a
regular basis. We manage all of our own properties. We've
never really sold a property, and with the new Michigan
business tax, it's not likely that we ever will. So you can be
assured that the property will be maintained at a very high level.
We have a very competent management company, and we pay
attention to our properties and our tenants.
Mr. Morrow:
I was hoping you'd say that. Now, does that include any type of
security to go along with protecting your investment there as far
as your tenants?
Mr. Eisenberg:
Security is always on an "as needed" basis. We've had closed
patrols on properties before, but most of our properties have no
security per se.
Mr. Morrow:
But that's something you're aware of that you can adjust should
you require it?
Mr. Amann:
They typically have surveillance cameras not only interior but
the exterior of the buildings as well. So there is a security
component that will be there that is not there now, particularly to
the rear of the larger users and those kinds of things.
Mr. Morrow:
It did come up from one of the residents. I wanted to make sure
we touched that base. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I did get a couple questions out of the comments that some of
the residents gave, and I do appreciate all the comments that
the residents gave. They did mean a lot to me as it's another
set of eyes looking at this piece of property, and it's a fresh set
of eyes in many cases. The one comment I heard and it does
kind of fall into the lines of my vision of this property, I suppose,
which is not exactly what I'm looking at, is the park -like aspect
of this property. We talked about functional green spaces. We
looked at the center water feature of this development as being
one of those functional green spaces that has benches and so
on around it. I don't want to nit-pick details of this plan, but the
pedestrian elements, the benches and so on, are along the
main access road to the entire site as opposed to being
adjacent to the parking lot where a person could park and then
go sit in those benches and enjoy the park -like aspects. As it
stands now, you either have to park and go around the water
feature, or you have to park and cross the main access road to
the entire site, which is obviously going to be heavily traveled.
So can you address that?
July 22, 2008
24905
Mr. Amann:
I just checked with the architect because I thought we had those
and they may not be coming across in the depiction you're
seeing. We, in fad, have bench areas on the internal areas as
well because we realize that's a natural setting for that. It may
not be coming through in the detail you're looking at, but in
those semicircle areas and the other areas, it's designed to
have park benches for people to sit down. When she made a
comment about that, we both made notes to the effect that we
already talked about there being a fountain. Some of the
centers we've already done. People have looked at the one at
Green Oaks and places like that. We have really focused on
those kinds of things because they do become kind of meeting
areas. There's a fine line between a good meeting area and a
hangout for kids on skate boards, so we have to try to design
our way around it. That's why we have paved concrete and
sluff like that, or stamped concrete, because it's rough enough
that it doesn't invite those folks there. So we're certainly going
to look at more of that.
Mr. Eisenberg:
Take a look at the landscape plan. The landscape plan reflects
the seating areas and all the amenities.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Yeah, I didn't want to whip it open and plow down the next two
neighbors here. This is a rather big plan.
Mr. Eisenberg:
Its a lot of paper, but its there.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Good.
Mr. Eisenberg:
And its a work in progress loo.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I understand that we do need to look at some of these
landscape elements, parking elements, and so on in more
minute detail to work out some of these details, but I do take the
comments to heart that were made by some of the residents. I
guess my vision of this property, I'll just say it now, when I first
thought of it before Isaw any of your plans or any of the other
sites that you guys have, was something a little bit more mixed
use. Obviously, that incorporated maybe some town homes,
brownstones, lofts, something like that. One of the citizen's
comments, a mini -downtown. I can of had the same thought
process. Obviously, we know residential is not the hottest thing
right now, but that's not to say that can't be Iandbanked or done
in the future and the retail elements be established now. But
this is a commercially zoned property. That's what you guys do.
I understand your financial reasons for presenting this plan the
way il, but part of what I also envisioned was a very park -like
setting, one that didn't have a sea of concrete. One that had a
July 22, 2008
24906
lot of obscurities through landscaping, trees and other elements
that, you know, you peak through the trees and, oh, look, there's
the retail element or the building across the way. I think Ms.
Kolhotf nicely identified that as sort of her vision as well of
having buildings surrounding a park -like setting. I see that there
are pieces of that here, but I don't know if it's quite there yet.
Mr. Amann:
Your reticence is appreciated because we kind of mentioned to
each other, what we are going to provide for you for future stuff
is kind of that ground sight line perspective because really if you
envision yourself driving along this project on Seven Mile, what
we tried to do is create the landscaping features to create vistas
and literally though when you would look up, and most projects,
if we were to tum the buildings parallel, you look at most
projects and you just see asphalt heading right back to the big
users and this that or whatever. Here from Seven Mile, there
would not be at any point in time when you're not disrupted by
landscaping and green space and buffering, essentially
wherever you look. We tried to make sure it's balanced and you
don't have a field where you just see a bunch of asphalt. But
we're going to get a site line perspective to kind of help you get
that because it's a fair question and it doesn't show that way on
the plans.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Right. I appreciate that.
Mr. Amann:
We're going to fix that. Second part of that is, you mentioned
the question about the mixed use. We have spent a lot of time
trying to find a way to assemble 90 to 100 acres to do that kind
of thing. The fact is, that's what you need - somewhere from 90
to 100 acres, and if we had the Sears property as part of this
thing, we'd be on our way to the kind of thing you were talking
about because we share a vision as it relates to having all these
mixed uses and Ions and things and people walking upstairs to
their place from a restaurant or whatever. You need that kind of
acreage to get something like that going and we have worked
hard to assemble that kind of acreage. With this parcel with
where we are now and where Sears is and where they may be
in the future, its just not in our cards. So we have to take what
we can do with what we have.
Mr. Eisenberg:
You should probably be aware thatin Michigan Grand Sakwa is
probably the largest mixed use developer in the state.
Residential used to drive our business and we've developed
quite a few mixed residential developments. We don't see the
opportunity.
July 22, 2008
24907
Mr. Wilshaw:
That's why I mentioned fiat because you guys do have the
reputation.
Mr. Eisenberg:
Believe me, if there was an opportunity, we would have
explored it and pursued it.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. The one thing I will say, it hasn't been addressed yet, so
I think it does bear saying that the elevations of the buildings
have not been talked about at all other than Mr. Tiseo did allude
to some of those elements. I appreciate that, and I take his
comments also very seriously because he is very accomplished
and has done a nice job with some of his developments
throughout the community. So needless to say, I do think that
the materials and the elevations are intriguing. I did show these
to a few friends of mine before the meeting to gel their opinion
in the interest of public disclosure, of course, and many of them
gave me the comment that basically these elevations don't
knock their socks off. They're not wow factor buildings, but they
also have a timeless quality to them in a sense that they're
contemporary. They have nice materials. Theyre going to look
good probably in 30 to 40 years not just for a year or two, which
is what we've seen with some of the other developments such
as the Meijer property down at SchoolcraR and Middlebell. It
had that wow factor when it was put in having the look of
multiple storefronts. A couple years on, it's not wowing anybody
anymore. So I do like the elevations. We haven't talked about
this so I do think it's worth saying that they are nice. I've seen
some of your other developments and they do use high quality
materials. Its not a facade, which is nice to see. I do have
concern about the 24-hour aspect of any use of this property. I
don't know that's in the cards for this particular discussion today
though. You're looking more for a general site layout. Is a 24-
hour element crucial to you at this point?
Mr. Amann:
The 24-hour, that's essentially part of the development
agreement process that we're working through with the City
Council.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So we will deal with that in the future. Okay, thank you
very much. That's the end of my comments for now.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you, Mr. Wilshaw. Are there any additional questions or
comments? Ms. McDermott?
Ms. McDermott:
Yes, I have some additional comments. I know we've already
kicked around here the mixed use a little bit, and I understand
that you are trying to bring the best site plan to the city. I have
to say, as one commissioner, I am excited again about having it
July 22, 2008
24908
developed, but I'm really disappointed that we're looking at total
retail and a big box development when we already have one at
Millennium Park. We have one at Wonderland. They're not
fully developed. We have Laurel Park Mall who, you know, is
not full. We have the development of yours that's at Six Mile
and Haggerty, and a multitude of retail spaces and strip malls
across the city, and they're empty. I'm not looking for an entire
site that would be say condos or an entire site that would be
medical or office with just a little bit of retail, but maybe
something smaller as we talked about with the senior
community. We have in the city, and I know you gentlemen are
well aware, we have city housing. They're apartment -like
whether they're towers or they're spread out in a ranch style,
and depending on what month you call, because it's a fluid
movement there I was told by Mr. Inglis, it's anywhere from a
one to three year wait. That's for our city housing. We have a
lot of seniors in Livonia. Bless their hearts, they came here
many years ago. My parents were one of hem and raised their
family here and they want to stay here, but not always can they
keep their house and their property. And so, that's why I was
really excited about the conversation we had in February in the
Planning Department with some of my peers and the staff about
looking at this being mixed use. And I have a vision that's a
little bit different, too, in that maybe a small senior, not
something that would need a huge footprint, a small senior
community centering around ... you could have your park, you
could have your walkways, health fitness area, you know, things
that they like to frequent. Big box developments are not
something that our seniors, most of them, cant speak for all of
them, but would like to frequent. It's physically challenging to
them. You know, those establishments don't always have
customer service that they need because that's not what they're
built on. They're built on self -serve. With the population in the
city that we have, we have in the 65 and over category, we have
about 20 percent of seniors. And then the next numbers that I
could find from the Census was in the 35 to 64 group. That
covers a lot there as another 40 percent. I would venture to
guesstimate that in the 55 to 65, there's probably at least
another 15 percent. And I know that they would like to have the
option of a senior community, something that would be really
unique, something that other cities would look to us and say,
hey, we'd like something like that. So that's why I'm
disappointed with the site plan and the way that it looks right
now. I'm not sure that we can support another big box
community development. I appreciate the fad that you want to
develop here in the city and I know that you can do mixed use,
so I was just hoping that you would look at that one more time.
July 22, 2008
24909
Mr. Amann: The proposition you create has two homs of dilemma, and it's
interesting that you hit on it because you talked about the desire
for us to look at a mixed use with a senior housing component
or whatever. First I'll tell you, when we went to work on the
design of this site, we tried to do everything we can to make
sure that the area over by the senior use was as quiet and static
as possible because, although I understand the need and desire
for senior uses, and we actually own, Grand Sakwa owns senior
uses and develops them around, we have never ever ever had
seniors who wanted to be in a use that was part of a commercial
development. They like to be off. They want to have access
but they don't want to be part of. Secondly, though, you talked
about seniors dont want to be a part of a center particularly with
a big box in it. The point I made earlier I'm going to reference
back because that's the other hom of the dilemma. If you do
not have a large anchor tenant that has a grocery component in
this thing, you will not have all the other tenants out in the front
and the middle ever getting there. The reason those strip
centers you see are dead is because the anchors, you heard
earlier tonight, the auto person who was counting on the liquor
store to survive because that's his anchor to keep traffic coming
to him and that's all on a smaller scale than what we have here.
Without a large scale, large box anchor, which by the way, I
understand you have concerns about he feasibility of it, you
have to know that clearly we've done a lot of research on that as
any potential users are doing as to whether it's feasible. Before
any of us are going to invest millions and millions of dollars, we
have to be absolutely comfortable that it's doable. We are and
so are they, whoever it turns out to be. But without that large
anchor, and there's two large anchors back there, none of the
middles or front would even show up let alone survive. They
are the draw. They are the attraction, not only for the tenants
but then for the people who will come and make those tenants
survive. And so that's a practical issue that we have to deal
with in designing a site and one that I know is anti -senior
friendly in terms of, you know, but as a practical matter, we've
never been able to do seniors in the middle of a commercial or
part of a commercial development either.
Ms. McDermott: I appreciate your comments. Like I said, I'm very leery. We
understand that you've done your research. Obviously, you
wouldn't be here if you haven't, but in today's economy, I'm not
sure any of us know what is going to happen, as you mentioned,
with retailers in even say the next week. And it wouldn't be the
first large big box retailer to come to the City of Livonia, build a
building and then leave. So that's what I'm concerned about
and, to me, something that's a little more stable would be, you
Mr. Morrow: Well, I'm not going to argue with that. I had the sense it was
more than that, but anyway, its a large development and it's
well done.
Mr. Eisenberg: The development at Six and Haggerty is about the same size.
Mr. Morrow: Okay. Well, I'm familiarwith thalloo.
July 22, 2008
24910
know, our seniors who want to slay here and would like
something that centers around them.
Mr. Walsh:
Ms. McDermott, we're going to move on from this point. The
developers have repeatedly said tonight its a commercial
development. So let's move on with what they're requesting
and you can vole your conscious.
Ms. McDermott:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Walsh:
Any addifional comments?
Ms. McDermott:
Not at this time.
Mr. Morrow:
I'll try to be brief because its getting late. I have a feeling you
folks have spent a great deal of time putting this project
together. You've invested a lot of money, and that's pretty
much the plan that you want to go forward with, with
modifications based on what you've heard here tonight and
incorporate as many things as you can. I think you said in your
opening remarks that we're hoping that we can think outside this
box. If there is a need for senior housing or some type of
development for residential, there's a lot of space across the
street and in the general area that maybe perhaps this will
attract, but I'm looking forward to the day when we get off that
dead mall deal in Livonia because I don't like that associated
with a city that I've lived in practically all my life. So you know, I
can tell from what I saw at Green Oaks that obviously there's a
lot of people out there who wanted to join you in the project as
far as being 4nants. I did have one curiosity though. How
many square feet does that whole project encompass - ballpark,
for Green Oaks?
Mr. Amann:
550,000.
Mr. Morrow:
550,000. 1 thought @ was larger than that.
Mr. Amann:
The architect's telling me that he got paid by the square fool.
Mr. Morrow: Well, I'm not going to argue with that. I had the sense it was
more than that, but anyway, its a large development and it's
well done.
Mr. Eisenberg: The development at Six and Haggerty is about the same size.
Mr. Morrow: Okay. Well, I'm familiarwith thalloo.
July 22, 2008
24911
Mr. Amann:
Maybe what gave you the different impression is really the
massing and scaling and the sizes of the building. It does
create a different impression of the size and those kinds of
things.
Mr. Morrow:
Maybe it's because of the way, like you say, it was, but anyway,
it gave me assurance of what we can look forward to here as far
as how you develop projects with your stamped concrete and
your lights and this type of thing. I just want to let you Imow
those comments.
Mr. Amann:
Thank youvery much.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions or comments? All right.
Seeing none, at this point then, a motion would be in order.
Thank you, gentlemen.
On a motion by Scheel, seconded by Smiley, and adopted, it was
#07-62-2008
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on July 22, 2008, on
Petition 2008-06-02-20 submitted by Livonia Phoenix, L.L.C.
requesting waiver use approval for a Planned General
Development consisting of a total of approximately 320,180
square feet of retail building area (Livonia Marketplace) at
29514 Seven Mile Road, located on the north side of Seven
Mile Road between Middlebelt Road and Pudingbrook Avenue
in the Southwest''/. of Section 2, which property is zoned C-2
and P, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to
the City Council that Petition 2008-06-02-20 be approved
subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Overall Layout Plan marked Sheet SP -3.0
prepared by Atwell -Hicks, dated June 20, 2008, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to, except that the 23
parking spaces adjacent to Hunter's Brook Condominiums
shall be eliminated and additional pedestrian walkways
shall be added from St. Martins;
2. That the Detailed Layout Plan (North Area) marked Sheet
SP -3.1 prepared by Atwell Hicks, dated June 20, 2008, is
hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
3. That the Detailed Layout Plan (South Area) marked Sheet
SP -3.2 prepared by Atwell -Hicks, dated June 20, 2008, is
hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
July 22, 2008
24912
4. That the six (6) Landscape Plans marked Sheets SP -9.0
through SP -9.5 prepared by Atwell -Hicks, all dated June
20, 2008, are hereby approved, in concept, and all details
related to those plans shall be submitted for review and
shall be adhered to, subject to the following stipulations:
- With the exception of the storm water management
basins, all disturbed lawn areas shall be sodded in lieu
of hydroseeding. Underground sprinklers are to be
provided for all landscaped and sodded areas and all
planted materials shall be installed to the satisfaction of
the Inspection Department and thereafter permanently
maintained in a healthy condition;
5. That the Generic Building Elevations Plan marked AR -3
prepared by fbgvoy Architects, dated June 20, 2008, is
hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
6. That the Building "B" Conceptual Building Elevations Plan
marked Sheet AR -5 prepared by Rogvoy Architects, dated
June 20, 2008, is hereby approved and shall be adhered
to, and that specific building plans for buildable areas "A"
and "B", as well as any improvements to the west side of
Sears and Jo -Ann Fabrics, shall come back for the
Planning Commission's review prior to their construction;
7. That brick used in the construction of the buildings shall be
full face flinch brick and precast masonry unit systems
shall meet ASTM 216 standards;
8. That all regular parking spaces shall be 10 feel by 20 feet
in size and the required number of handicapped spaces
shall be property located, sized and signed;
9. That all parking spaces shall be double striped;
10. That this approval is subject to the petitioner being granted
any needed variances from the Zoning Board of Appeals;
11. That all pole mounted light fixtures shall be shielded to
minimize glare trespassing on adjacent properties and
roadway, and such equipment shall not exceed a height of
35 feel within the parking lot areas north of buildable areas
"C" and "D", and shall not exceed 20 feel in height above
grade in the parking lot areas south of the main east -west
drive that runs near the center of the property;
July 22, 2008
24913
12. That all mechanical equipment shall be concealed from
public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a
compatible character, material and color to other exterior
materials on the building;
13. That the three walls of the trash dumpster area shall be
constructed out of the same brick used in the construction
of the building or in the event a poured wall is substituted,
the wall's design, texture and color shall match that of the
building, and the enclosure gales shall be of steel or
reinforced fiberglass construction and maintained and
when not in use closed at all times;
14. That the petitioner shall secure the necessary perils,
including storm water management permits, wetlands
permits and soil erosion and sedimentation control permits,
from Wayne County, the City of Livonia, and/or the Slate of
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality;
15. That the Developer shall submit for approval an ongoing
mosquito control program, as approved by the Department
of Public Works describing maintenance operations and
larvicide applications to the City of Livonia Inspection
Department prior to the construction of the stormwater
retention facility;
16. That the owner shall provide annual reports to the
Inspection Department on the maintenance and larvicide
treatments completed on the stormwater detention pond;
17. That this approval shall incorporate the recommendation of
the Engineering Division stated in the correspondence
dated July 1, 2008, regarding the location of Building "A";
18. That the petitioner shall comply with the stipulations listed
in the correspondence dated July 8, 2008, from the Livonia
Fire and Rescue Division;
19. That only conforming signage in accordance with sign
regulations for a Regional Shopping center as set forth in
Section 18.50H(c) of the Zoning Ordinance is approved
with this petition, and any additional signage shall be
separately submitted for review by the Planning
Commission and approved by the City Council;
20. That no LED lighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows;
July 22, 2008
24914
21. That the nearest twenty-five (25) feet to the property line
within the required yard area of the shopping center shall
be maintained in landscaping and no parking or vehicular
access shall be permitted in such landscaped area, as
specified in Section 20.04(e)(2) for instances where
residential districts adjoin the shopping center without an
intervening street, unless this requirement is waived or
modified by the City Council by means of a separate
resolution in which two-thirds of the members of the City
Council concur;
22. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for; and,
23. pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning
Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a
period of one year only from the date of approval by City
Council, and unless a building permit is obtained, this
approval shall be null and void at the expiration of said
period.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use is in compliance with all of the
special and general waiver use standards and
requirements as set forth in Sections 11.03, 19.06 and
20.02 of the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use;
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area; and
4. That the proposed use will provide a viable alternative use
for the subject property.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Ms. McDermott: Yes, I just want to say I'm sure it's not to anyone's surprise at
this point that I will be voting no on this, not because I don't
July 22, 2008
24915
want to see it developed, but I don't feel at this time, in these
economic times, that this is the best plan that we can come up
with for the City of Livonia and for the residents. Thank you
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions or comments? Mr.
Taormina?
Mr. Taormina:
I'm going to recommend some changes to the conditions to
address a couple issues that were discussed this evening in
keeping with the maker's of the motion intent to move this
forward, but also realze that there are some unresolved items.
If Ms. Scheel might consider modifications first to Item #1 that
would eliminate the 23 spaces adjacent to the Hunters Brook
Condominiums, and also that additional pedestrian walkways be
provided to the site via St. Martins. The next one would be Item
#4 as it pertains to the landscape plan, that all details related to
those plans shall be submitted for the Planning Commission's
review. Item #6, regarding the building elevation plans, that any
improvements to the west side of the Sears building and to Jo-
Ann Fabrics, that more specific plans shall come back for the
Planning Commission's consideration. Also, Item #11, we
would modify the language to as to require a shorter pole height
for the outdoor lighting in the areas that would be south of that
main east -west drive. The plan right now shows lower light
fixtures for that area. What we'd like to do is distinguish that
from the larger parking field for the other retail. Those are
basically it. So we would modify those conditions.
Mr. Walsh:
Is that acceptable to the maker?
Ms. Scheel:
That's acceptable.
Mr. Walsh:
Support?
Ms. Smiley:
Yes, that's fine. On #11, you're talking about like 20 -feel
fixtures in different places?
Mr. Taormina:
We'd either make it a maximum of 20 feel or we would just
reference the plan, which I believe shows 16 feel.
Ms. Smiley:
Okay. Fine. No problem.
Mr. Wilshaw:
That's kind of the direction I was headed, to see what elements
of this are we going to use as callback items. I just want to
make it clear before we vole, I want to make sure I fully
understand what I'm voting on. What we've done at this point
now is that we've made the landscaping a callback item, the
petition as presented already makes any nonconforming
July 22, 2008
24916
signage a callback item, and then there's a handful of other
elements that have been clarified. Is that correct?
Mr. Taormina: That's basically it.
Mr.Wilshaw: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any addifional questions or comments? Just a couple
words on my part. I intend to support the motion. As I start with
the desires that many of us have, you look at a piece of property
that comes up every once in a while and what you can do with
it. You compare those desires against the reality of the
situation. It is commeroial property. It is owned by Grand
Sakwa. I'm pleased that they have that investment. While
some housing there might have been great, the market is not
good. I'm aware of commercial development interest in that
property. I'm unaware of any interest to the contrary. So the
truth that's before us is a developer in hand that has a national
reputation that's willing to spend millions of dollars improving
what is blight on our city. Thus far, they are proving themselves
to be very cooperative with the requests that we've made and
the requests that the neighbors have made, and we have
protected ourselves with a number of callback items. So for
those reasons, I'll be supporting this petition tonight. If there are
no additional comments, we will proceed with the call of the
vote.
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Scheel, Smiley, Morrow, Vartoogian, Walsh
NAYES: McDermott, Wilshaw
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM #7 PETITION 2008 -05 -SN -04 LAUREL MANOR
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2008-
05-SN-04submitted by Ti no Del Signore requesting approval for
a ground sign for the banquet center (Laurel Manor) located at
39000 SchoolcreR Road, on the north side of SchoolcraR Road
between Hix Road and Eckles Road in the Southwest % of
Section 19.
July 22, 2008
24917
Mr. Taormina: This is a petition by Laurel Manor Banquet Center to replace an
existing ground sign at their site located on the north side of
SchoolcraR Road between Hix Road and Eckles Road. This is a
split zoned property. It's a combination of C-2, General
Business, where the banquet facility is located, and Parking for
the majority of the areas on the site that are devoted for parking.
Currently, the site has two ground signs, one is an 8 fool high
monument sign that is located right off SchoolcraR, the main
entrance to the facility. Then there's a larger 24 -fool high pylon
sign that is located on the north side of the banquet center
adjacent to 496. This proposal would replace that sign. This is
the site plan. This is the main entrance coming in off of
SchoolcraR. The first sign is located here. The sign we are
looking at this evening is this one here on the north side of the
building adjacent to the Jeffries Freeway. The new sign would
measure 30 feel in overall height. It would have a brick base
that would be approximately 8 feet in width by 16 feel in height.
On top of that would be the sign dimensions of about 16.2 feet
in width by 14 feel in height. The proposed sign, as you can
see, would identify the banquet hall with permanent lettering at
the lop, but would also include an electric reader board for
advertisements and announcements. This type of sign is
prohibited in commercial zoning districts and would therefore
require the approval of the Zoning Board of Appeals if approved
by this body and the City Council. Just to recap, the signage
allowed would be a 30 square fool sign, 6 feet in height, 10 feel
from the right-of-way. What they have currently is a sign that's
about 24 feet in height, setback 1 fool from the right-of-way, with
an area of about 140 square feel. They would replace that with
a new 226 square fool sign. That would be an increase of about
88 square feet. It would be 30 feel in height, which is an
increase of about 6 feel, and it would maintain its existing
setback from the right-of-way, so there would be no change
there. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. Mr. Nowak, is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There is one item of correspondence from the Inspection
Department, dated June 16, 2008, which reads as follows:
"Pursuant to your request of June 11, 2008, the above -
referenced petition has been reviewed. The following is noted.
(1) The petitioner has proposed a 30' high freestanding ground
sign. A variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals would be
required to maintain the excess height. (2) The petitioner also
proposed an electronic changeable copy sign to be installed
which is prohibited. A variance from the Zoning Board of
Appeals would be required to maintain the electronic
July 22, 2008
24918
changeable copy sign. This Department has no further
objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Jerome
Hanna, Senior Building Inspector. That is the extent of the
correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions for the Planning Department before we
go to the petitioner? Mr. Nagy.
John J. Nagy,
17517 Ellen. Cbod evening, members of the Commission. Also
good evening to members of the Planning staff. My name is
John Nagy and I'm here representing your applicant, the owner
of the property, John Del Signore. John asked me to represent
him tonight. He, unfortunately, was called out of town on some
personal business and isn't able to attend. He wanted me to
attend because he wanted me to tell you just how important this
matter is to him. He desires to have that sign approved. He
wants to modernize. He wants to have better communications
out there on the sign, better advertising to communicate with
the public what's going and what events are scheduled there.
He did advise me that his contractor would be here this evening
to present the technical matters of the sign with respect to the
materials and fabrication and how it would operate and so forth.
I just could not locale the contractor tonight. Unfortunately, I
never mel the party, so truly I'm at a loss to tell you why he's not
here. Other than that, I'll do my best to try to move forward on
the project if I can, but I cannot explain the absence of the
contractor.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions from the Commissioners?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Nagy, do you know, based on your conversations with Mr.
Del Signore, if he would be okay with that sign having a static
message that will only change every couple hours or something
along those lines as opposed to something that would change
on a more frequent basis?
Mr. Nagy:
My understanding from talking with John is that he does not
want a static sign. He wants it more contempodzed; he wants to
have the benefit of the changeable address. To answer your
question, I think he would rather hold out for the plan as
submitted.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay, but he doesn't seem to have a problem with that sign
having the same text on it for some length of time, an hour or
two hours or something along those lines as opposed to
changing it continuously.
July 22, 2008
24919
Mr. Nagy:
I think he would be amenable to something along those lines
rather than continuous. I think there could be some intermittent
time period like that.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay.
Mr. Nagy:
Thatwould be acceptable, yes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
John, I came away from the study session because John was at
our study session, and I came away with the feeling that he
didn't want a moving sign where its constantly changing the
message. He wanted the benefit of showcasing on that sign
whatever happened to be going on at the time.
Mr. Nagy:
Exactly.
Mr. Morrow:
And the only variable that I had was he said he might want to
change the sign several times during the course of the day,
what's happening in the morning or afternoon or a combination
of both. So I think that was his intent unless you've got a
different reading.
Mr. Nagy:
No, I think that's a fair representation.
Mr. Morrow:
And about the only thing we need to determine is how often he
would change that message. I'm assuming it's weddings and
special events and whatever happens to be going on at that
time.
Mr. Nagy:
I think you're right. I think that's the extent of it, yes.
Mr. Morrow:
Would you want to say how often that sign would change, every
two hours, every three hours? How many times it would
change?
Mr. Nagy:
It seems to me two hours would be an adequate amount of time
to get a message across. I think a two-hour rotation would work.
Mr. Morrow:
Yes. Because I think you realize we're kind of on unprecedented
signage here, and we're trying to, at least as one commissioner,
because of where its located, it's a sign that's pretty much for
the expressway. He's in kind of a precarious site anyway as far
as finding out where it is, so at least it will give the people that
aren't familiar that theyre getting close to Laurel Manor. So,
Mr. Nagy: I dont think I would agree with that in its entirety. I don't think a
pylon sign of that size in fiat area really is designed to give
messages out in that kind of detail and that number. I just think
you're looking for more major events than you are daily events.
I don't think John's intent was really to identify every wedding
party that is there or that kind of thing - maybe a wedding party
but not a conference or something like that. I think he would limit
R to those events that have more of a public interest. Just
because they happen to book an event, it won't automatically go
up on the sign.
Ms. Vartoogian: Okay. Thank you. That's all.
Ms. Smiley: I guess my question was, he didn't have a particular sign, he
didn't mention to you, that he would use an example, like Rock
Financial or Schoolcmft College or our own Livonia Rec Center,
for example. He never gave you an example of a sign that he
liked or that he thought he was getting?
Mr. Nagy: No. It was just more general than that. I'm really kind of limited
because...
July 22, 2008
24920
anyway, I just wanted to me if you had the same impression
that we came away with at the study session.
Mr. Nagy:
I think that would satisfy John's requirements.
Mr. Morrow:
I imagine sometimes he would be booked up pretty solid. Some
days he may only have one or two items going on there. So
with that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield the floor.
Mr. Walsh:
Ms. Varloogian and then Ms. Smiley.
Ms. Vartoogian:
I also wanted to see if you would concur with what I look away
from the study session meeting was that there could be up to
nine parties going on at one time, and also from what we were
told, there's only a limited amount of text that can be shown on
the sign. So you can only advertise so many parties at once,
and if there's, for example, nine going on at once, you can't
show them on one single sign. Therefore, I believe part of his
request was to be able to advertise all parties gang on at a
particular time, whether its morning, afternoon or in the
evening. I think it was his intention to be able to show those and
have different messages appearing across the sign and not
necessarily be limited to changing it once every hour or two
hours. Would you agree with that?
Mr. Nagy: I dont think I would agree with that in its entirety. I don't think a
pylon sign of that size in fiat area really is designed to give
messages out in that kind of detail and that number. I just think
you're looking for more major events than you are daily events.
I don't think John's intent was really to identify every wedding
party that is there or that kind of thing - maybe a wedding party
but not a conference or something like that. I think he would limit
R to those events that have more of a public interest. Just
because they happen to book an event, it won't automatically go
up on the sign.
Ms. Vartoogian: Okay. Thank you. That's all.
Ms. Smiley: I guess my question was, he didn't have a particular sign, he
didn't mention to you, that he would use an example, like Rock
Financial or Schoolcmft College or our own Livonia Rec Center,
for example. He never gave you an example of a sign that he
liked or that he thought he was getting?
Mr. Nagy: No. It was just more general than that. I'm really kind of limited
because...
July 22, 2008
24921
Ms. Smiley:
I'm sorry. I just thought in conversation, he might have
mentioned it.
Mr. Nagy:
I really wasn't party to the design or the operation, just that John
was called out of town and I'm trying to pick up from the
conversations I had with him from time to time on the matter.
Ms. Smiley:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions or comments? I will share a
conversation I had with Mr. John Del Signore. It was out of
town on business travel last Tuesday, and he is looking for
some degree of flexibility. When I'm going to suggest if we do
proceed with an approving resolution is perhaps he can make
his pitch at the Council level if we agree at some time frame
tonight. He'll have enough to work with the Council on adjusting
8 if he needs to. My preference would be to keep this moving
forward if we can reach some agreement tonight, unless you
disagree and you want us to table this tonight.
Mr. Nagy:
I think that's a fair approach. I think that's in John's best
interest, and I think he would appreciate that very, very much.
Mr. Walsh:
If there are no questions, and we have cleared the audience so
there is no more audience communication. Do we have a
motion?
On a motion by Smiley, seconded by Morrow, and unanimously adopted, it was
#07-63-2008
RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2008 -05 -SN -04
submitted by Tino Del Signore requesting approval for a ground
sign for the banquet center (Laurel Manor) located at 39000
SchoolcraR Road, on the north side of SchoolcraR Road
between Hix Road and Eckles Road in the Southwest % of
Section 19, be approved subject to the following conditions:
1. That the Sign Package submitted by Tino Del Signore, as
received by the Planning Commission on May 23, 2008, is
hereby approved and shall be adhered to;
2. That no LED Iighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows;
3. That any additional signage shall come back before the
Planning Commission and City Council for their review and
approval;
July 22, 2008
24922
4. That this approval is subject to the petitioner being granted
a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals for excess
signage and the electric reader board portion of the sign
and any conditions related thereto;
5. That the electronic sign message shall not contain any
scrolling or moving messages or graphics, shall not flash,
blink, contain animated graphics, or intermittently change,
shall display only one color (no multi -colored letter display)
and the sign message shall not change more than one (1)
time every two (2) hours;
6. That the sign shall not be illuminated beyond one (1) hour
after this business closes; and
7. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the sign permits are applied for.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw: Just one quick piece if the maker would be willing to add to it
that the sign not be multicolored in its display so there aren't all
sorts of different colors on the letters.
Ms. Smiley:
Would not be multicolored?
Ms. Scheel:
Are you saying all the letters be the same color? Is that what
you're asking?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Yes. One single color at any given time if it has that capability.
Mr. Taormina:
That is how it is depicted on the drawings. If that is the intent,
then you should include R.
Ms. Smiley:
Mr. Morrow, how you feel about it?
Mr. Morrow:
Yes, that's the intent.
Ms. Smiley: Not be multi -colored. Okay. Are you ready to vole?
Mr. Walsh: Yes. I just have some quick comments. I want to get a few
things into the record. We don't have the luxury of having the
sign person here, but I have driven past repeatedly the Rock
Financial sign. I also called people that work there and talked to
them about the number of limes that they change it. It
alternates. Now, they have a single color sign. It doesn't have
July 22, 2008
24923
multiple colors. Their rotation depends on the nature of the
events that they have in a much larger facility. So that's why I
wanted to make my comment earlier, lets gel this moving
forward for Mr. Del Signore, but for the benefit of the Council, I
just wanted to make some comments that there are other
examples. Rock Financial would be the closest of a single color
sign that changes intermittently but more frequently than every
two hours depending on the event. So some days you go by
and it changes perhaps while you approach it and pass it.
Other days it will not change if you go back and forth. I know
from experience because I did that. But in any event, I want to
give them a little bit of flexibility there. He had expressed some
interest in a multi -colored sign. He'll know the opinion of the
Planning Commission after this and he can work on that with
Council. So I just wanted to point those things out. I think this is
a legitimate request. He has more competition now than in the
past and a tougher market. I think this sign will help Laurel
Manor out quite a bit. With that, we will go with a roll call.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM #8 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 9W Regular Meeting
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the
Minutes of the 965"' Regular Meeting held on July 8, 2008.
On a motion by Wilshaw, seconded by Vartoogian, and unanimously adopted, it
was
#07-64-2008 RESOLVED, that the Minutes of 965h Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on July 8,
2008, are hereby approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Wilshaw, Vartoogian, McDermott, Morrow, Scheel,
Smiley, Walsh
NAYS: None
ABSENT: None
ABSTAIN: None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted.
July 22, 2008
24924
On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 966" Public
Hearings and Regular Meeting held on July 22, 2008, was adjourned at 11:00
p.m.
ATTEST:
John Walsh, Chairman
CIN PLANNING COMMISSION
Carol A. Smiley, Secretary