HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2007-12-11MINUTES OF THE 955° PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING
HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA
On Tuesday, December 11, 2007, the City Planning Commission of the City of
Livonia held its 955" Public Hearings and Regular Meeting in the Livonia City
Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan.
Mr. John Walsh, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
Members present: William LaPine Deborah McDermott R. Lee Morrow
Carol A. Smiley Ashley Varloogian Ian Wilshaw
John Walsh
Members absent: None
Messrs. Mark Taormina, Planning Director; At Nowak, Planner IV; and Ms. Marge
Watson, Program Supervisor; were also present.
Chairman Walsh informed the audience that if a petition on lonighfs agenda
involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the
City Council who, in tum, will hold its own public hearing and make the final
determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning
Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or
vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City
Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If
a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the
petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City
Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become
effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission
and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their fling.
The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying
resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the
outcome of the proceedings tonight.
ITEM#1 PETITION 200741-01-08 McLAREN
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the first and second items on the agenda,
Petition 2007-11-01-08 submitted by McLaren Performance
Technologies requesting to rezone the northerly 19.42 feel of
the southerly 301.45 feel of property at 32233 Eight Mile Road,
located on the south side of Eight Mile Road between Parker
Avenue and Hubbard Road in the Northeast % of Section 3 from
R-3 to ML.
December 11, 2007
24461
ITEM#2 PETITION 200741-01-09 McLAREN
Petition 2007-11-01-09 submitted by McLaren Performance Technologies
requesting to rezone the southerly 282.03 feel of the property at
32233 Eight Mile Road, located on the south side of Eight Mile
Road between Parker Avenue and Hubbard Road in the
Northeast''/. of Section 3 from R-3 to P.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. We're going to go to our staff. Item 1 and 2 are
related. Although we will vole on them separately, I'm going to
ask our staff to review both because it will make more sense in
that manner.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under both petitions plus
the existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There is one item of correspondence from the Engineering
Division, dated November 21, 2007, which reads as follows:
'Pursuant to your request, the Engineering Division has
reviewed the above -referenced petition. The Engineering
Division has no objections to the proposal at this time and has
veered the above address. The following comections should be
made to the three attached legal descriptions (1) To the first
legal description (Parcel A - entire parcel) add, 'of the Northwest
YV right after the first 'of the Northwest X.' (2) To the second
legal description (also described as.) change, 'the north X
corner of Section 3, TIN' to the north /, corner of Section 3,
TIS.' Also change the two lower case 'e' in the beatings to
capital case 'E'. (3) For the third legal description (portion of
Parcel A described as Area B) change T. 1N.'to 'TIS'. Finally,
the owner should be made aware that the building expansion
would require them to bring the entire property into compliance
with the Wayne County Storm Water Management Ordinance.
We trust that this will provide you with the information
requested." The letter is signed by John P. Hill, Assistant City
Engineer. That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Is the petitioner here this evening?
Ron Cieslak, Merritt McPherson Cieslak, P.C., 33750 Freedom Road,
Farmington, Michigan 48335. I'm the architect representing
McLaren Performance Technologies tonight.
December 11, 2007
24462
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. Is there anything you'd like to add to the
presentation thus far?
Mr. Cieslak:
I'd just like maybe to give a little background as to how we got to
this point tonight if I could. McLaren Performance Technologies
needs to expand their facilities in order to meet their facility
development requirements in terms of testing and product
development. We looked at several ways to accomplish this,
and we have had several meetings with the City and with the
Planning Department specifically. We were originally looking at
attempting again to rezone the back portion of the property
which has basically been vacant for as long as McLaren's
owned the property for 40 years or so. After a lot of discussions
with the Planning Department, it was decided that maybe that
wasn't in the best interests of the whole area. So in lieu of that,
R was thought that if we could rezone the southern portion of the
property, which is unused parking, adequately screen it, deal
with lighting and all of those issues, and keep everything, really
all of the technical space north along Eight Mile for which it was
originally zoned, that might be a good middle ground that would
be acceptable to the community and to the Planning
Commission. So I would just like to point out, understanding
that this is all subject to site plan approval ....
Mr. Walsh:
Mr. Cieslak, I'm going to suggest, so that our camera can pick
this up, if you will set up over here, and use the hand
microphone, that would be good.
Mr. Cieslak:
Thank you. Right now at McLaren, all of the engine testing
currently occurs in this location and that really isn't changing.
We're keeping that right where it is up along Eight Mile Road.
This area to the west or to the east is additional technical space
but that is not engine space where engine testing would occur.
Similar, this space to the west is the same. This would be a
three-story office/technical/engineering/sales building along
Eight Mile Road that we relocated from the corner so it would
have good visibility. And then really almost as a buffer, we
located the warehouse to the south side, and that's the area that
we're seeking the 19 feet of rezoning to ML so that we can
extend that south of the zoning line here, and then put our
parking south of that. So we really tried to come up with a plan
that would as much as possible buffer the surrounding
neighbors from the actual technical space to the north, and its
one I think meets McLaren's space requirements and one that
seems like a good middle ground in terms of the development of
the site within the existing community. I'll show you this. This is
a conceptual drawing, and again, I understand, these are just
pretty pictures now. This is all going to have to come back, but
December 11, 2007
24463
this is what we would envision from the corner of Hubbard and
Eight Mile looking to the southeast with this being the existing
building with a new facade on it. This is the three-story office
and then the main entrance lobby area. With that, that is our
presentation.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. Very good. Are there any questions for the petitioner?
Mr.LaPine:
A couple questions. The building to the west, it looks like a big
cement concrete building. Is that going to be torn down?
Mr. Cieslak:
That is currently the Cushman Building. I don't know if
someone from McLaren would want to address ... that would
be tom down, yes, if this plan went ahead.
Mr. LaPine:
That will be tom down and a new three-story building would be
built plus a two-story building. Is that correct?
Mr. Cieslak:
I should show you the plan. The only three-story portion is the
office. Everything else is single story.
Mr. LaPine:
Now the building you have on Parker, there's a small building on
Parker there.
Mr. Cieslak:
Two.
Mr. LaPine:
Two of them, right. They are going to be combined into one?
Mr. Cieslak:
Those are actually coming down.
Mr. LaPine:
They're coming down loo. So you will be tearing down
everything that's there now and starling from scratch basically.
Mr. Cieslak:
Yes, with the exception of the existing ...
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. I understand. That clanfes in my mind. The other
question I have, the parking is in the rear. Can you just give me
a quick way - the way people get back there. Where does the
road come in? They don't come in off of Parker?
Mr. Ceislak:
Here and Hubbard.
Mr. LaPine:
I understand. So lt will be in, out and around there?
Mr. Cieslak:
That's correct.
Brian Ahlborn, Vice President Corporate Development, Linamar, 26555
Evergreen, Suite 900, Southfield, Michigan 48076. Hello, my
name is Brian Ahlborn. Where would you like me to stand?
Mr. Walsh: Good evening. Mr. Ahlborn, I'm going to ask if you could come
right up to the footprints there. That would be great.
Mr. Ahlborn Okay. I am the President of McLaren.
Ms. Smiley: Nice to meet you.
Mr. Ahlborn: Its nice to meet you. The question was, what does McLaren
do.
Ms. Smiley: Yes, I'm afraid I don't know.
Mr. Ahlborn: McClaren is a designer and developer of engines, transmissions
and dnvelines primarily for automotive but related industries as
well. So in that building we are designing engines. We are
December 11, 2007
24464
Mr. La Pine
Can they come in from the west side into the parking lot or do
they have to go down Parker to come into the parking lot? Can
they come in and go out of both sides of the street?
Mr. Cieslak:
That's correct. Yes. Its two-way traffic in both ways.
Mr. LaPine:
Okay. That's good. Now, then would you berm this? Are you
going to put up any masonry wall or will it be strictly all bene?
Mr. Cieslak:
The ordinance actually requires a wall. You build a wall and
then landscape inside the wall.
Mr. LaPine:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Ms. Smiley:
Do you need all that parking? Are there that many employees
or what's all that parking for?
Mr. Cieslak:
It's for that many employees. They plan on adding a substantial
number of employees to the site.
Ms. Smiley:
You develop engines there. I'm afraid I don't understand what
McClaren does. Tell me what they do.
Mr. Cieslak:
Would someone from McLaren want to clarify just what the use
would be because it has changed over the years. It used to be
predominantly engine development.
Brian Ahlborn, Vice President Corporate Development, Linamar, 26555
Evergreen, Suite 900, Southfield, Michigan 48076. Hello, my
name is Brian Ahlborn. Where would you like me to stand?
Mr. Walsh: Good evening. Mr. Ahlborn, I'm going to ask if you could come
right up to the footprints there. That would be great.
Mr. Ahlborn Okay. I am the President of McLaren.
Ms. Smiley: Nice to meet you.
Mr. Ahlborn: Its nice to meet you. The question was, what does McLaren
do.
Ms. Smiley: Yes, I'm afraid I don't know.
Mr. Ahlborn: McClaren is a designer and developer of engines, transmissions
and dnvelines primarily for automotive but related industries as
well. So in that building we are designing engines. We are
December 11, 2007
24465
building engines, one often, prototypes. We're machining parts
to put into an engine, make the engine. And then we can put
them in a test cell and run that engine and test it. We can do
the same with a transmission. We can do the same with certain
other driveline components such as an axel. Historically, the
business started out of the racing sector and has evolved into
primarily doing engineering for the automotive sector and for the
OEMs, Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, etc. Currently, if you
look at the building, if you were to walk through the building over
here, you would see 16 labs where there are literally rooms with
engines set up running, testing out the designs that have been
built or maybe promng out a problem that's come in with a
engine that's been returned to us from a company and asked us
what's wrong with it and we test it, diagnose issues with it. That
is a key portion of our business. McLaren is owned by a
company called Linamar, which is a Canadian company, which
is a manufacaturer of automotive components and systems.
McLaren does engineering work for customers that in an ideal
world will also then want to buy parts from Linamar. That's kind
of our strategic connection between McLaren and the parent
company, Linamar. Linamar also has an office in Southfield
with approximately 100 people. So there's probably about 80 or
so here on Eight Mile. So when Ron mentioned going to 200 to
250, there's 100 already identified that are silting in Southfield
right now that would be part of this combination. Most of them
are sales people. This is mostly an engineering group. Linamar
is a large corporation and has its entire word sales force
headquartered in Southfield. We would be bringing that here as
well as part of this proposal. There would also be some
engineers. Linamar has migrated its business from simply on
the engineering side to an emphasis on engines to also
emphasizing driveline applications like a power transfer unit, a
transfer case and axel system. We don't have the ability to lest
those things effectively right now. We need to add lest
capability for those things, which we would want to do within the
scope of this expansion. That kind of testing, we'll just call it
gentler testing from a community point of view. It doesn't have
emissions. It's doesn't generate as much noise, etc. That's
what we need to add. We need that space to do that. A lot of
the same disciplines that come with testing engines come with
testing transmission and driveline applications. We want to be
able to do that there too. We recently bought an operation from
Ford Motor Company as part of Ford's divestitures that makes
power transfer units, which is a highly engineered system.
We've been awarded some additional work to make more of
those but we need to engineer those and test those in order to
support our business. We'd like to do it here.
December 11, 2007
24466
Ms. Smiley: Thank you very much.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional questions?
Mr. Wilshaw: I have a series of questions. Mr. Ahlborn, you are probably the
best person to answer this. The first question that I had I think
you've already answered it. It was what was prompting the
growth of your operation, and obviously you're consolidating
multiple facilities. So my first question in that vein is, what are
the hours of operation of this facility after ... if it comes to this
stage where you're going to have all your operations here, what
hours and shifts are you going to have?
Mr. Ahlborn: Is this on public record?
Mr. Walsh: Yes. This is all public record
Mr. Ahlborn:
Okay. Well, I will say that our sales guys work real long hours.
If you think about it, we're adding primarily a large group of
sales people that are working during the main part of the day,
8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. generally, not lending to work later. The
expansion of hours that we're looking at doing would be in the
testing and engineering area for the transmission and driveline.
Most of those engineers would generally be working during the
day shift with some fluctuation around that. The lest cells could
be running 2417. They could be durability. So you're literally
loading up a gearbox. You want to know when a gear may fail
and or something may fail in that box by running it. So you start
it and you're running it literally 2417. It may not even be manned
for some of that testing. Primarily, McLaren currently runs
during the first shift, the main shift of the day. That really
wouldn't change much. There would be some tests that are
running probably 2417 for durability tests and fatigue tests.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Do you do any of that operation currently or is this new testing
that you're not currently doing?
Mr. Ahlborn:
We do a lot of testing for engines. We do limited testing for
transmission and driveline applications. The primary focus of
this change is to have the capability to do transmission and
driveline testing. We would be adding different kinds of cells
that we don't have currently that have different test capabilities
solhalwe can run transmission and driveline applications.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And how about the deliveries of that equipment into your
facility? I see that they enter off of Parker. It looks like for
deliveries. Are those deliveries going to only occur - I assume
December 11, 2007
24467
that large trucks bang in those engine parts. Are they only
going to come during the day?
Mr. Ahlborn:
Bruce? Primarily, for sure but....
Unidentified audience
member: For shipping and receiving, it's 4:30 p.m.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So 4:30 p.m. is kind of when your shipping and receiving
occurs or does it go past that?
Mr. Ahlborn
Until 4:30 p.m. There are extraordinary situations, of course,
but that's the routine.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Now as part of this expansion, you're adding warehouse facility
to the south. Currently you have outdoor storage in that
proximate area. Are you going to then remove all outdoor
storage as a result of this expansion?
Mr. Ahlborn:
Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And as far as your operations, because of the type of
business that you're in, it obviously produces some emissions
and noise. Are you going to be doing anything that would
expand that noise pollution that may extend into the residential
areas?
Mr. Ahlborn:
The expansion that we will be doing will be significantly lower in
contribution to noise than the engine business we currently do
just by the nature of the way a transmission or an axel works.
They simply don't generale that type of noise. The primary
noise in your vehicle is not coming from those areas and, in fact,
one of the cells that we'll be pulling in will be completely noise -
proof and will actually lake quite a bit of investment to isolate
that completely from Eight Mile Road, and in addition is also
isolating noise from the outside and also noise going outside. I
think we feel very confident that there will be a negligible, not
relevant amount of noise added from this because of the nature
of the kinds of things we will be testing.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. My Iasi question for you then is, and you started to allude
to it is, what sort of dollar investment would this project be for
the community, you know, for your company. How much are
you looking to spend on this, and have you considered any
other sites as part of this as you've gone through your process
of looking to consolidate your operations?
Mr. Ahlborn:
The project has a variety of capital scenarios associated with it,
largely a function of whether or not we build this building to be
December 11, 2007
24468
three-story versus two-story, exactly what kinds of cells we're
going to be putting in, but clearly its a multimillion dollar project
of significant impact to us and probably the largest such
engineering investment our parent company would have ever
made. Are we looking at making that investment other places?
Absolutely, we are. Absolutely because we are obligated to be
doing this testing in the later part of this year and we will do it
somewhere. We have to do it somewhere. So we our scouring
a variety of alternatives. As we have said all along, there's a lot
of economies to us and benefits of putting it adjacent to what we
already do at Eight Mile. We have people that understand
testing and engineering. Obviously, we need to expand that.
To put it somewhere else would be inefficient ultimately, but of
course we're in the business to gel things done, so we're doing
a lot of contingency planning.
Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Morrow: Just one final question. I'm assuming from what your
presentation is that the amount of dynamometers you have is
going to remain the same. You're just adding testing for
transmissions and other parts?
Mr. Ahlborn: Exactly. We have no plans to add . . am I answering this
incorrectly? Technically, I guess we may be adding "dynos" for
the transmission and Aivelines for the lest cells right, but not
engine "dynos".
Mr. Morrow: And that's where most of the excessive noise comes from?
Mr. Ahlborn: Absolutely.
Mr. Morrow: That was what I was primarily getting at. In other words,
whatever is there now, will remain the same.
Mr. Ahlborn: It certainly wont get larger.
Mr. Morrow: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. La Pine: I only have a couple questions. Number one, we want to keep
you in Livonia, naturally, but my question is, has anybody
showed you any other sites in Livonia where you could start
from scratch where it would be large enough or is it because of
what you've got there now, it would cost more to move what
you've got than to start from scratch?
Mr. Ahlborn: It would be quite expensive to move the existing engine "dynos"
out of the current locations.
December 11, 2007
24469
Mr. LaPine:
Thats what I thought.
Mr. Ahlborn:
There certainly are a variety of scenarios that we've looked at -
leaving the facilities at Eight Mile as they are and continuing to
run them as they are and doing all of our expansion elsewhere.
And we've got plenty of scenarios that we're looking at in that
regard. Its got its pluses and minuses. This has really a lot of
preference to us.
Mr. LaPine:
The other question I have, you've been there for 39 - 40 dears.
When you bought this property, were the homes there when you
bought the property? Do you know or were you around then?
I've been here 50 years, and I dont remember what was there.
Mr. Ahlborn:
Where's Wiley when we need him?
Unidentfed speaker: The average age of the homes is about 45 years.
Mr. Ahlborn:
Forty-five years is the average age of the homes, so they may
have been going in around the same time.
Mr. LaPine:
I was just curious. I was here when you came before. We
looked at that and I had no problem with it. But I dont want to
lose a big company like yours. You've been here a long time.
You've been a good corporate citizen, and we want to keep you
and we want to do everything we can, but we also have to take
into consideration your neighbors and try to do everything
humanly possible to eliminate any inconvenience.
Mr. Ahlborn:
Yes, we certainly understand that and hopefully Ron has been
working hard to accommodate that, both from keeping the flow
generally off of Parker as much as possible and to build the
walls or whatever we call them around the parking lot.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions for the petitioner? Thank
you. What we will do at this point, we will open
the public
hearing. This is the opportunity for those of you
in the audience
to pose any questions to the Commission or make your
statements known that you are for or against these petitions. If
you would please come down to the podium and please state
your name and address and direct your comments to us. Thank
you.
Jim Prieskom,
20446 Hubbard. I live right next door to the wall. I'm going to try
to stay as calm as
possible because what I've seen here, this
can't happen. I live
right next to Mr. Cushman, and Mr.
Cushman has done everything in his power to try and help the
December 11, 2007
24470
neighborhood. He's actually moved to a bigger facility to
accommodate his manufacturing of cases and so on because
we had such a big problem with semi -trucks this year, not only
blocking the street, blocking my driveway, blocking my
neighbor's driveway, but blocking the intersection. He actually
moved because he's getting bigger, okay? The existing building
that is there now is a two-story. You allow a three-story
building, you're invading my privacy. Now I've got to look at
three stories. I've got to look at people looking down on my
property, my backyard. I have to look at a bene. I have to look
at a parking lot. We've had nothing but problems with people
coming in at night parking in their parking lot. Just the other
night I had to call the police because a delivery was being made
at McLaren Engines. The guy was sleeping in his van. He had
the proper paperwork. The police allowed him to stay there.
This was on Cushman's property, which it's also posted. No
one is to park on that property after hours, but the police
allowed him to do that. Why he didn't park over at McLaren
Engines, I don't know. But what I can see right here is a
problem that's going to happen with the neighborhood. We're
going to have problems with trucking coming in, delivery trucks
coming in, medium size, light duly size, whatever. I understand
they want to improve on the property. They've had it for a long
time. I've been here since '88. The house was built in '85. 1
also want to stale on record, there was a meeting after I moved
in. The first approach on this property was to make it into a
parking lot. It was defeated. The Council said this will never
happen. It infringes and encroaches too much into the
residential. The second tme that you guys had it on record, is
that they wanted to put up an office building. The City Council
again knocked it down. It's too much encroachment. We have
to think about our citizens. We have to think about our
neighbors. Okay. Now we're talking about a three-story
building. I sympathize with McLaren Engines. Okay? I've
looked out for them. I've called the police when there have
been problems. I don't have a problem with them. They've
been pretty good neighbors as they are now. But to put a three-
story building, there is no way. If they want to build something
this big, I know for a fact there's property in Livonia they can
move to and build that size building in a regular industrial
complex. And my understanding was when I moved in and
started my family, I had nothing but a house. I put up a garage.
I've done the landscaping and everything. Okay? This was
supposed to be light industrial. Every time we turn around,
somebody wants to go a little bit bigger, little bit bigger, little bit
bigger. The next thing you know, who's the ones its hurting?
We are. We have to sit and look at that building all the time.
We have to sit there and put up with all the nonsense, the
December 11, 2007
24471
littenng. The people that come in the parking lot and want to do
sluff they're not supposed to. Okay? I'm asking you, as the
zoning commission, just because they want to develop on this
property, there's other places they can go. Don't let them force
you into saying, well if we can't develop on this, we're going to
go somewhere else. They are already moving people from
Southfield to Livonia because they're outgrowing and they want
to put everything and make it bigger here. Why can't they go to
a bigger industrial area in Livonia? Not to mention, if they're
going to take Cushman's building down and put up a parking lot,
guess who's going to have to sol and put up with all that
construction? I am. My family. And the other thing is, if they
thought so much of our residents, the three houses behind me
on Parker and the two other houses next to me on Hubbard,
why didn't they come and ask, what can we do to improve, what
can we do to make things right? They didn't do that. They just
went behind our backs, I feel, and went nghl to the City. What
can we do? What do you want? How do we do this? And I will
tell you this, if this is approved tonight, I will fight this to City
Council. You can't lel this happen. There's plenty of other
places for that size of building, for that expansion to go in the
City of Livonia. Leave it as light industrial. Those buildings will
gel filled one way or another if they move out. Okay? So you're
still going to have your lax dollars coming in, but you need to
have this moved to a regular industnal site if it's going to be this
big.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you, sir. We appreciate it. Good evening.
Rob Austin, 20306 Hubbard. My property is about 280 feel from the proposed
parking lot that McLaren Performance Technologies has come
to you with. I came to this meeting thinking that we were going
to be talking about a parking lot and a small 19 fool slap of
property being rezoned, and I come to find out they want to
develop an entire block of frontage off of Eight Mile. I'm totally
against this development. The noise that we hear a lot is
contrbuted from McLaren. I know a lot of it is from Eight Mile
traffic and stuff, but I've been in this house for 22 years. Mr.
LaPine, my house was built in 1937 so it is a little older than
McLaren Technologies, and I just want to go on record saying
I'm totally against the rezoning of this area and I think that the
previous meetings that we attended before you for different
variances and issues and planning issues from McLaren, you
guys have made the right decisions, and I hope you make the
right decision again this time and keep all of the residents of
Livonia in mind when you make that decision.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you.
December 11, 2007
24472
Melissa Wagner, 20445 Hubbard. I'm on the west side of Hubbard from
McLaren. Mr. Wlshaw, you brought up a couple items about
noise levels. We have had all kinds of problems with noise in
that area. They test engines all hours of the night. My neighbor
has gone over and spoken to them, and their response was,
we've got a job to do. We have to lest until the job is done.
We've called the police out. The police have said, 11:00 is
noise ordinance time. They're not supposed to do anything
after that. They run day and night over there. As far as the
trucks, right now from is it Cushman's? I mean I've had motor
carrier. He's been out there policing the intersection because of
tmcks blocking. Tracks have come down the street and rip
phone lines off of my house twice. They have taken out my
neighbors front yard practically. I mean its an ongoing
situation. And about 12 or 13 years ago, my neighbor to the
north of me, their property is partly commercial or light
manufacturing, whatever it is, and residential. And they came
to the city to ask to have it rezoned all commercial. Al that
point, the committee at that time said, we will not do that
because once we open up and change the zoning and start
letting that go through, everybody else on Eight Mile is going to
ask and encroach back into the neighborhoods, and they would
not vole for it. The noise ordinance is a confinuing problem.
You know, we call the police; they come out. They wanted to
send somebody out to test the levels. The exhaust that comes
out of that building, years ago, one of my neighbors came
home. He was new in the neighborhood. He thought
McLaren's was on fire and he called the fire department and
they responded. I mean that's what we have to look at and
that's what we have to put up with. It doesn't belong in our
neighborhood, and I hope that you will come out and take a look
at it. See for purself. Look and see how many times we've
had issues with noise. You know and see. Hopefully, you will
listen to our concems. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Thankyou. Is there somebody else wishing to speak?
Ferretti Pasquale, 20340 Hubbard. I don't really like this idea for some of the
same reasons that have been mentioned. I moved in here
approximately 30 years ago, and I like the peaceful, rural
atmosphere. I just can't imagine the sound being any better
than it is now. I can hear it especially summer nights when the
windows are open. I mean that parking lot is going to be right
near my backyard. I have landscaping. Everything is peaceful,
everything is nice back there and I dont really want to look at a
wall and have cars coming in and out, more traffic. So I'm also
againstit.
December 11, 2007
24473
Mr. Walsh: Thank you.
Ryan Horton, 20414 Hubbard. We've been here for a long time. We've had a
lost of noise problems. I think even a minute litlle amount of
extra noise, it's only going to make it worse. Everyone stated
that. We're against this. Again, we also came here under the
assumption that they wanted to add a parking lot, not do a huge
expansion. It's an eyesore. We have a pool. During
construction in the summer, there's going to be dirt in the pool.
Now I have to look at a parking lot behind me with the pool. Its
a complete eyesore for everyone. We've had nothing but
problems with noise to begin with, so even a minute more of
construction alone is going to be a complete inconvenience for
everyone, and again, we were never confronted with this. Hey
what do you think? What can we do to make you accept this?
Again, working behind our back. So just stating that, we would
like to say that are completely against this.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to
speak for or against these items? Seeing no one coming
forward then, we will close the public hearing. Al this point, the
petitioner has an opportunity to come forward if they wish to
answer any remaining concerns of the commission or to answer
any of the concerns that were stated. Are there any questions
for the petitioner? Seeing none, would the petitioner like to
have the opportunity to have the last word?
Ron Cieslak: Just to add that many of the concerns I'm sure that have been
brought up tonight are issues that would have to be addressed
ultimately in the site plan approval process in terms of screening
and so on. Again, I just want to reiterate that we were ... I, as
the architect, was charged with trying to make both of these
work as best I could given the facilities that they needed and as
much as possible to buffer the residents in the design. I know
there is still a lot of work to do to accomplish that, but our efforts
are sincere. I think that's all l have tonight. Thank you.
Mr. Ahlborn: I'd just like to thank everyone for their comments. We do try to
be a good citizen in the area in which we work. We're not
surprised by some of the reaction. Frankly, it is always a
challenge to have residents and business working together like
that. We are trying to accommodate that. For us, it's trying to
minimize the negatives while optimizing the opportunity to build
and expand in the area. We think we can do it really in a way
that's safe, in a way that's quiet and a way that's minimally
disruptive. So we appreciate the chance to introduce that today.
December 11, 2007
24474
Mr. Morrow: One of the gentlemen kept referring to Cushman. Could you
expand on that? Is that a separate operation? Is that part of
your operation or is that somebody leaving? What was that?
Mr. Ahlborn: The building west most currently sitting here along Hubbard
Street, is currently not owned by McLaren. It's owned by a
company called Cushman. As part of this proposal to do the
breadth of expansion, we would need to acquire that building
from Cushman.
Mr. Morrow: So I guess the point of my question is, other than building a third
story, now that the problems with Cushman's will be removed
because they seem to have some problems with some trucks
with Cushman.
Mr. Ahlborn: Yes, in some of the comments that were coming, I couldn't tell
for sure whether they are things that are happening on what is
McLaren proper, Cushman proper, some are probably
ambiguous because there is almost a shared parking area. BLL
yes, those are obviously close to where many of the residents
that just spoke are on Hubbard.
Mr. Morrow: My question was, is Cushman part of your operation because
he seemed to have some problems with the operation of
Cushman?
Mr. Ahlborn: Cushman is not part of our operation.
Mr. Morrow: Okay. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine: Can I ask a question of Mr. Taormina?
Mr. Walsh: Yes.
Mr. LaPine: We've heard a number of comments tonight about the buildings
along Eight Mile Road. Assuming they had enough parking,
those buildings on Eight Mile Road could be built. They are in
an ML district, are they not, Mr. Taormina?
Mr. Taormina: If I understand your question, the answer would be yes. Most of
the building expansion is proposed within the ML -zoned part of
the property, so provided that they complied with all of the
ordinances relative to setbacks and parking. The exception to
that is the approximate 19 feel of warehouse that would extend
into what is currently the R3 zoning.
Mr. LaPine: So basically, if they had property where they had enough
parking facilities, they could go ahead with those buildings as
December 11, 2007
24475
long as they met all the ordinance requirements, except for the
19 feet that they would have to have rezoned to add on the
warehouse.
Mr. Taormina:
That is correct.
Mr. La Pine:
Okay. Thank you.
Ms. Smiley:
Could I see an aerial shot of that, Mark?
Mr. Taormina:
Yes. Let me just describe @ to you. This is the main building
right now owned by McLaren. This is where they have their
current testing facilities. These are the two buildings that they
own along Parker, the smaller one here. From this area, these
two parcels are owned by McLaren. This is what has been
referred to this evening as the Cushman properly with frontage
along Hubbard. As you can see, this is the larger parcel owned
by McLaren that has a depth of about 600 feet. You can see
where literally half of it is developed within the ML zoned portion
of the property and then the balance, the southerly 300 feet
approximately, is the residential zoned section of the land. So
we've heard from a number of the residents that live right here
along Hubbard Street.
Ms. Smiley:
Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Mr. Taormina, do you know if Mr. Bryant or anybody from the
Economic Development office in the pre -planning stages here of
this development have had any discussion with McLaren about
other sites in Livonia in the industrial area that they could move
to, or that there would be any incentives that could be offered to
them as far as tax breaks or anything that would facilitate their
move?
Mr. Taornina:
Yes, we are assisting McLaren in the various scenarios that
were mentioned this evening, including economic incentives at
not only this location but other locations.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Sir, the public hearing is closed.
Unidentified audience member: You allowed them to talk again.
Mr. Walsh:
Yes, as I indicated at the beginning of the meeting, our rules of
procedure permit the petitioner to have the last word after the
public hearing. Any additional questions?
December 11, 2007
24476
Mr. LaPine:
Yes, just one other question if I may ask Mr. Taormina. Let's
assume for a minute that we didn't rezone the properly or
anything. The property behind the building they have there
now, they own. Now if they can't expand, they own a piece of
property that is useless to them at this point. Am I right?
Mr. Taormina:
Well, I'm not going to say it's useless. It has severe limitations
with respect to any expansion
for industrial purposes if no part
of the rezoning is permitted by the city.
Mr. LaPine:
What I'm saying, if somebody wanted to buy that properly and
put a small sub in there, how would they gel in? As long as
McLaren is there, unless they give them a right-of-way off of
Eight Mile Road to the back of that property for a subdivision,
that property is pretty much landlocked. There is no way you
can develop it.
Mr. Taormina;
We've explored those possibilities in the past. And yes, that
would require certain changes regarding McLaren's current
operations in order to access the back half of their property for
any future development consistent with the current zoning. So
yes, there are certainly challenges in order to develop that
properly from an economic standpoint, most certainly.
Mr. LaPine:
Thank you, Mr. Taormina.
Mr. Walsh:
Al this point, if there are no other questions, then a motion
would be in order.
Mr. Ceislak:
Can I clarify something?
Mr. Walsh:
This is the Iasi comment from the petitioner, so yes.
Mr. Ceislak:
Thank you. I just wanted to clarify, for the benefit of particulady
the residents, that we're here tonight not to get approval on our
site plan because we're showing this pretty site plan. We're
here just to take the first step towards developing that so that
we can get hopefully the zoning changed. and then we'll back
with the site plan to work out all the details. And that's all I
wanted to comment on. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
A motion is in order.
On a motion by
LaPine, seconded by Varloogian, and adopted, it was
#12-132-2007
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-01-08 submitted by McLaren Performance
December 11, 2007
24477
Technologies requesting to rezone the northerly 19.42 feel of
the southerly 301.45 feel of properly at 32233 Eight Mile Road,
located on the south side of Eight Mile Road between Parker
Avenue and Hubbard Road in the Northeast'''/ of Section 3 from
R-3 to ML, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend
to the City Council that Petition 2007-11-01-08 be approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed change of zoning is compatible to and in
harmony with the surrounding uses and zoning districts in
the area;
2. That the proposed change of zoning will provide for a
transition or buffer zone between residential uses and
more intensive industrial uses in the area;
3. That the proposed change of zoning will provide an
opportunity for the development and utilization of the
vacant southerly portion of the subject property, and
4. That the proposed change of zoning represents a
reasonable and logical zoning plan for the subject properly,
which adheres to the principles of sound land use planning.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there discussion? Hearing none, would the secretary please
call the roll?
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
LaPine, Vartoogian, McDermott, Morrow, Smiley,
Walsh
NAYES:
Wilshaw
ABSTAIN:
None
ABSENT:
None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution. That concludes Item #1. We will now move on to
the related Item #2.
Mr. LaPine: All we need on that is a motion. Is that correct, Mr. Chairman?
2. That the proposed change of zoning will provide for a
transition or buffer zone between residential uses and
more intensive industrial uses in the area;
3. That the proposed change of zoning will provide an
opportunity for the development and utilization of the
vacant southerly portion of the subject property, and
4. That the proposed change of zoning represents a
reasonable and logical zoning plan for the subject property
which adheres to the principles of sound land use planning,
December 11, 2007
24478
Mr. Walsh:
Yes. We covered both in our first hearing as I indicated. So at
this point, unless there is new information from the
commissioners, we will move on to a vote.
Ms. Smiley:
Is it the same one?
Mr. Walsh:
No, it is Item #2.
Mr. LaPine:
I think the motion covered both.
Mr. Walsh:
Oh, was it combined?
Mr. Taormina:
No. There should be a separate vote, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walsh:
But it's the same resolution. So a motion is in order.
Mr. LaPine:
I'll make the same motion for Item #2.
On a motion by LaPine, seconded by Varloogian, and unanimously adopted, it
was
#12-133-2007
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-01-09 submitted by McLaren Performance
Technologies requesting to rezone the southerly 282.03 feel of
properly at 32233 Eight Mile Road, located on the south side of
Eight Mile Road between Parker Avenue and Hubbard Road in
the Northeast % of Section 3 from R-3 to P, the Planning
Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that
Petition 2007-11-01-09 be approved for the following reasons:
1. That the proposed change of zoning is compatible to and in
harmony with the surrounding uses and zoning districts in
the area;
2. That the proposed change of zoning will provide for a
transition or buffer zone between residential uses and
more intensive industrial uses in the area;
3. That the proposed change of zoning will provide an
opportunity for the development and utilization of the
vacant southerly portion of the subject property, and
4. That the proposed change of zoning represents a
reasonable and logical zoning plan for the subject property
which adheres to the principles of sound land use planning,
December 11, 2007
24479
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 23.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. Wilshaw: Just to explain my vote. It is a difficult issue, obviously. This is
a very sensitive situation for the people who live around there
because it's an expansion of industrial or manufacturing type
use in essentially a residential area. I'm also very sympathetic
toward McLaren Engines. They've been an excellent corporate
citizen for 40 years in our city and they have a piece of
landlocked property that there's not much else that they can do
with it, so I can sympathize with the desire to want to do
something with that property. The only reason I'm voting
against it at this point is because the situation that we're in in
this city right now, is that we do have a lot of vacant property in
our industrial area that certainly could accommodate this type of
operation which would, I suppose, be a win-win in the sense
that it would get this type of operation into a more appropriate
area in the city and it would also aid the residents in the fact that
they wouldn't have to deal with any of the noise or industrial
uses of that property that's near them. Therefore, I think it
would be in our best interest to try to seek a place for McLaren
to move as opposed to them expanding in their existing location.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any additional dscussion? Seeing none, would the
secretary please call the roll?
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: LaPine, Vartoogian, McDermott, Morrow, Smiley,
Walsh
NAYES: Wilshaw
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#3 PETITION 2007-10-0239 H &A VENTURES
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2007-
10-02-39 submitted by H & A Ventures, L.L.C. requesting waiver
use approval to utilize SDD and SDM liquor licenses at 29241
Six Mile Road, located on the southeast comer of Six Mile Road
and Middlebelt Road in the Northwest Y4 of Section 13
December 11, 2007
24480
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the properly under petfion plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are three items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 8, 2007, which reads
as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering Division
has reviewed the above -referenced petition. The Engineering
Division has no objections to the proposal at this time. The
following legal description should be used in connection with
this petition that is a description for the store footprint only. That
part of the Northwest''/. of Section 13, T. 1 S., R. 9 E, City of Livonia,
Wayne County, Michigan more particularly described as beginning at
a point distant SaRh 00°22'00" West, 135.0 feet and Due East, 145.0
feet Goin the Northwest comer of Section 13 and proceeding thence
Due East, 45.0 feet, thence South 00°22'00" West, 68.00 feet, thence
Due West, 45.0 feet, thence North 00^22'00" East 68.0 feet to the
point of beginning, subject to easements and right-of-way records,
containing Approx. 0.07 Acres. The address shown above as 29241
Ste Mile Road should be used with the proposed party store. We trust
that this will provide you with the information requested." The letter
is signed by John P. Hill, Assistant City Engineer. The second
letter is from the Division of Police, dated November 13, 2007,
which reads as follows: 'We have reviewed the plans in
connection with H 8 V Ventures, LLC Party Store located at
29229 Six Mile Road. We have no objections or
recommendations to the plans as submitted." The letter is
signed by David W. Sludl, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The third
letter is from the Inspection Department, dated November 19,
2007, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of
October 30, 2007, the above -referenced petition has been
reviewed. This Department has no objections to this petition."
The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Senior Building
Inspector. That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, is the
petit oner present? If so, would you please step forward? Good
evening.
Nasser Choucair, Byblos General Contraction Co., 5693 Hubbell Street,
Dearborn Heights, Michigan 48217. Good evening.
Mr. Walsh: Nasser, is there anything you'd like to add to the presentation
thus far?
December 11, 2007
24481
Mr. Choucair:
As you know, in 2005-06 we started building this strip mall. We
got approved from you guys. As you see now, the whole
shopping center is leased except a couple of spaces. We have
one of them montlrto-month and one is vacant. So we decided
to put a gourmet wine shop with liquor. We don't have actually
in that strip mall any restaurants. So we would like to have a
party store over there. The square footage of that party store is
2,457. The actual retail that we're using is approximately 1,000
square feet. We're meeting the requirement in the parking lot
and the parking spaces. Mr. Taormina and At said more than
enough.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Morrow?
Mr. Morrow:
First of all, you did a very nice job in developing that site.
Mr. Choucair:
Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
Secondly, this H & A Ventures, L.L.C. - are they the owners of
the shopping center?
Mr. Choucair:
Yes, sir.
Mr. Morrow:
Will they be operating the liquor store?
Mr. Choucair:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
So in other words, it will be the current owners and the current
management?
Mr. Choucair:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
I wasn't sure if you were going to have someone else operate it
for you.
Mr. Choucair:
No. Normally, they operate their own. They have a team. They
have a good management operating the liquor store. Now
actually, we have one in Royal Oak. We just did it last year at
11 Mile Road and Campbell. They put a nice image there. Its
not like any other wine and liquor store.
Mr. Morrow:
The reason I bring that up is because one of the concerns that I
have as a commissioner is, let's say, your Ventures, L.L.C.
decides that they do not want to operate the liquor store any
more and you have the approval. With this approval, it runs with
the land. I might be concerned if you brought in another tenant
to ran it for you or to ran the operation. Do you see what I'm
saying?
December 11, 2007
24482
Mr. Choucair:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
Because it does run with the land. Now if you try to sell the
liquor license, then a lot of controls the city has kicks in as far as
getting the transfer of the license, but just to bring in another
tenant to run it, we don't know anything about him. Do you think
your H & A Ventures, L.L.C. would enter into agreement with the
city that should they decide not to run it any more, that they
would give up the waiver?
Mr. Choucair:
Technical questions like this, really, I would tell you my point of
view. They own not only one or two or three. They own
several. But technical sluff like this, I would leave it to the
lawyer, Scott Najor.
Scott Najor, 21745
W. Eight Mile Road, Detroit, Michigan 48219. To answer your
question, no I don't think that would be appropriate. If we
decided to sell the shopping center, the license would also be
transferred along with the transfer of ownership of the properly.
Mr. Morrow:
In other words, they would have to buy the liquor license. Is that
correct?
Mr. Najor:
Right.
Mr. Morrow:
That was the point I was making. I would not have difficulty with
that if you tried to sell it. I'm talking about another lessee. If H
& A Ventures, L.L.C. decides they want to gel out of this
business, and they bring in somebody unbeknownst to us and
he just sets up shop because he has the waiver. We never
have the chance to interview the individual that's going to be
running it. Do you see what I'm saying?
Mr. Najor:
What would your major concern be with the new owner
operator?
Mr. Morrow:
My major concern?
Mr. Najor:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
Well, the waiver runs with the land. With that liquor license, you
could bring anybody in to operate it. We dont have any control
over it. We may gel a good operator; we may gel a bad
operator. H & A Ventures, L.L.C. is a known quantity. They've
done a good job in developing the center. Theyve got some
good tenants. We have every reason to believe they'd do a
December 11, 2007
24483
good job in the party store business. As one commissioner,
(hats my concern.
Mr. Walsh: If I may interrupt. Could we have your name and address
please?
Mr. Najor: Scott Najor. Attorney for H & A Ventures and my address is
21745 W. Eight Mile Road in Detroit.
Mr. Walsh: Okay. Thank you. I just want to go back to something I
understood earlier, and I want to make sure I'm on the same
page. The owner of the strip mall is going to operate this store.
Mr. Najor: Yes, they are.
Mr. Walsh: I just got a little confused. Mr. Morrow, anything else?
Mr. Morrow: No
Mr. LaPine: I'm a little confused. I heard you say two things. Is this going to
be a wine and liquor store, or is it going to be a party store?
Mr. Najor:
We're going to acquire an SDD and SDM license, which is
liquor, beer and wine.
Mr. LaPine:
I understand that.
Mr. Najor:
But we are going to operate it as a fine wine store, and its going
to be presented in that nature, as a wine store.
Mr. LaPine:
When you say a fine wine store, does that mean you're going to
sell bread, milk and everything else, or just wine and alcoholic
beverages?
Mr. Najor:
Al this point, I think we are planning on selling bread and
cheeses.
Mr. LaPine:
Like a party store. Let's call it a party store.
Mr. Najor:
Its more of a wine store. It's going to be bread, cheeses and
things of that nature. It's going to be a highend wine store, and
it's going to have other accommodations as well. It's going to
have a separate area where the liquor is going to be, behind the
counter.
Mr. LaPine:
If it's going to be another party store, I have a problem with that
because the mix of stores you have in there now, in my opinion,
a party store is not conducive to what you have in there now.
December 11, 2007
24484
You have different types of stores, and this doesn't seem to be
the right fl for what you have there now. Now, if you're telling
me you want to sell strictly wine, alcohol and cheeses, that may
be a different deal because ifs more of a specialty operation.
So with that I mind, (hats why I was confused here. Basically,
though, you're going to be selling other things.
Mr. Najor:
We are going to have those licenses, but again, we're going to
be presenting it as a fine wine store for connoisseurs of that
nature with various breads and cheeses to bring out the taste of
the wine, and we're also going to have the accommodation, like
I said, of liquor separate behind the counter.
Mr. LaPine:
You're not going to have any wine tasting there or anything like
that?
Mr. Najor:
I can't say al this point, but I don't know if we would go that far.
Mr. Taormina:
If I may, Mr. Chairman, that could not be operated without a
Class C license. Under the licenses that they propose to carry
at this location, they could not have any wine tasting events. I
would also like to point out that it is true that the use would be
fixed to this location and it would run with the land. However,
any transfer of ownership or stock interest is something that
would be subject to the approval of the legislative body, the City
Council, as well as the MLCC.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Mr. Wilshaw:
Based on what I just heard then, Mr. Taormina, you're telling me
that even if they don't sign a voluntary agreement to dissolve
the waiver use upon ownership change, we would still have
some control over what would happen with that facility if there
was to be an ownership change?
Mr. Taormina:
The City Council certainly would. There would be background
checks conducted on any new operators or owners of that
license followed by approval by the City Council prior to the
license being transferred.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And to the petitioner, you have characterized the
business as being essentially a fine wine store with related
items, but the question is, are you going to sell liquor at this
facility?
Mr. Najor:
Yes, we are.
December 11, 2007
24485
Mr. Wilshaw:
So it's primarily a fine wine store, but it will also have beer,
liquor and other alcoholic beverages. The other question then,
as was alluded to by Mr. LaPine, there's a difference between a
wine store and a party store. I think of a party store as being
charactensd as lots of signage in the windows and cigarette
ads and other types of things. Are you going to have any of that
at this facility as far as that look of a party store with signage in
the windows and those types of things?
Mr. Najor:
Again, I think one of the members of the limited liability
company would be able to kind of explain his ideas of what he
would like to project onto this store probably better than me. So
here is Mr. Kasab, one of the members.
Mr. Kasab, 2124
Park Circle, Keego Harbor, Michigan. No, we're not going to
portray it as a party store. There's not going to be any cigarette
ads in the window. Just one sign on the building and that's it.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. So the inlenor is going to be set up with a counter where
people would go purchase their liquor. What are you going to
have in the middle of the store?
Mr. Kasab:
Justwine shelves and displays of beer.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. And you've operated other facilities like this?
Mr. Kasab:
Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Where are the other facilities?
Mr. Kasab:
Royal Oak.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Where at?
Mr. Kasab:
At 11 and Campbell.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Al 11 and Campbell. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Morrow:
Mr. Chairman, maybe you can clanty this. I guess the point I
was trying to make, without the sale of the license when the city
get controls and does background checks, this particular owner
decides to bang in a new tenant to operate his license ...
Mr. Walsh:
From a legal standpoint, Mr. Mon -ow, they transfer the
ownership or they don't.
December 11, 2007
24486
Mr. Morrow:
I guess my point was, I was afraid under his license they would
bring in another operator to operate it as a party store and use
his license. That's the point.
Mr. Walsh:
That potential would exist in any establishment.
Mr. Morrow:
If you lel the waiver run with the land.
Mr. Walsh:
We have until the recent laws have changed.
Mr. Morrow:
I just have a concern about being able to change the
management within that organization or operation by using their
license. What would be the adva ntage of a condition?
Mr. Walsh:
We'd be better off if we had our city attorney here because I'm
not an expert ... while I'm an attorney, I'm not an expert in
liquor license laws, but I don't believe that you ... you can't
cheat the law by having someone else operate your license.
Mr. Morrow:
So I guess whatever goes in there, once it's given, the City still
has control.
Ms. Vartoogian:
City Council does. If we have the agreement for the waiver use,
then they would have to come before us. That's my
understanding of d. If they
had that waiver use agreement and
a new tenant had to come in and basically reapply.
Mr. Walsh:
I think what we're doing at this point, because none of us are
experts is guessing, and my suggestion is, we're here for the
purpose that we exist, and I think you made your objections
noted but this is just my suggestion. Vole as you will if we get to
that point this evening and allow the City Council to address that
with legal counsel present. We dont have City Council present.
I'm starting to feel nervous about my malpractice insurance.
Mr. Morrow:
I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'm just trying to clear the
things in my mind.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or
againstthis petition? Seeing no one coming forward, then the
public hearing is closed. A motion is in order.
On a motion by
Smiley, seconded by McDermott, and adopted, it was
#12-134-2007
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-10-02-39 submitted by H & A Ventures, L.L.C.
requesting waiver use approval to utilize SDD and SDM liquor
December 11, 2007
24487
licenses at 29241 Six Mile Road, located on the southeast
comer of Six Mile Road and Middlebell Road in the Northwest''/.
of Section 13, the Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Petition 2007-10-02-39 be
approved subject to the following conditions:
1. That all liquor products allowed to be sold in connection
with the use of an SDD license at this location shall be
displayed behind a counter with no direct public access in
accordance with the Proposed Floor Plan prepared by
Byblos General Contracting Co. dated October 23, 2007;
2. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition,
and any additional signage shall be separately submitted
for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals;
3. That no LED lighthands or exposed neon shall be
permitted on this site including, but not limited to, the
building or around the windows;
4. That the disassembled gales for the existing dumpster
enclosure located in the southerly portion of the site shall
be repaired orreplaced; and
5. That the specific plan referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the special and
general waiver use standards and requirements as set
forth in Sections 11.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance
#543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use;
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
December 11, 2007
24488
Mr. Morrow: I'm going to vote against this primarily because of the concems I
shared, and I guess it was brought out by Mr. LaPine where he
indicated he had no problem with a fine wine shop, in addition to
the liquor sales, and the appropriate amenities that go with a
fine wine shop. But my concern is, let's say two years into it,
lheyre not making it as a fine wine shop, and we go into a full
fledged party shop with the same waiver. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine: I also am going to be voting against it, and my big objection is, if
this was just a fine wine shop similar to the one at College Park,
I probably would have no objection to it, but there's loo many
things out there I just don't feel comfortable with. Thank you,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional comments? Would the secretary
please call the roll?
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Smiley, McDermott, Wilshaw, Vartoogian, Walsh
NAYES:
LaPine, Morrow,
ABSTAIN:
None
ABSENT:
None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#4 PETITION 2007-10-02-40 NUDELL ARCHITECTS
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2007-
11-02-40 submitted by Nudell Architects requesting waiver use
approval to provide a food court within the existing Laurel Park
Place Mall and tenant area at 37700 Six Mile Road, located on
the north side of Six Mile Road between Newburgh Road and
Laurel Park Dnve in the Southeast % of Section 7.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are four items of correspondence. The first dem is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 19, 2007, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above -referenced petition. We have
December 11, 2007
24489
no objections to the proposal or the assigned address listed
above. However, after careful examination of the legal
description provided it should be noted that Tax I.D. #
028990002009 does not close, it appears there is a repeated
set of two beatings and distances that are in error as underlined
in the attached. If one set of these bearings and distances art=
removed the description then doses. However, the property Tax
I.D. #028990002017 describes much of the same property as
the first parcel. Finally, neither of the legal descriptions offers
any clear relationship between the building and the parcel
descriptions. We therefore cannot offer any legal description for
the food court itself." The letter is signed by John P. Hill,
Assistant City Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia
Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 13, 2007, which reads
as follows: `This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in
connection with a request to provide a food court within the
existing Laurel Park Place Mall on property located at the
above -referenced address. We have no objections to this
proposal." The letter is signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire
Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated
November 13, 2007, which reads as follows: We have
reviewed the plans in connection with the Laurel Park Place
Mall food court, located at 37700 Six Mile. We have no
objections or recommendations to the plans as submitted." The
letter is signed by David W. Studl, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau.
The fourth letter is from the Inspection Department, dated
November 20, 2007, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your
request of November 9, 2007, the above -referenced petition has
been reviewed. This Department has no objections to this
petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Senior Building
Inspector. That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, we will
proceed with the petitioner. Would you please step forward?
Melinda Graulau: I am the mall General Manager. I just wanted to basically give
you a little bit of history about CVL and Associates out of
Chattanooga, Tennessee. I can't help but say it that way.
When we bought the center in June, 2005, from Schoslak
Brothers, this is a particular area of the mall that has been
challenged for several years. 12,400 square feet of this
vacancy, which is pretty much where a lot of the food court
spaces actually are located, actually is the old, I think it was
called Laurel Park Health Club or something. It's been vacant I
guess pretty much from two years after the mall opened. So
that was probably somewhere around 1991 it closed. We've
also had the vacant Chansma Salons since they relocated.
Since we bought the mall in June, 2005, we've kind of noticed,
December 11, 2007
24490
we've tned a variety of different things that we could put in this
end of the mall b really no avail. We tried different furniture
stores; we tried swim clubs; we've tried health clubs. We really
haven't had a lot of luck. And our challenge from a leasing
standpoint is, if we're not drawing the traffic to that end of the
mall, we're obviously not able to lease that end of the mall. So
we see kind of a pattern that just kind of stops. So that's why
we sal down and really kind of thought strategically what are we
going to do. We've had our executives review this and say,
what can we do to this? Its not really a big center. It's not a
huge center and we typically say, you know, we have A
locations in the mall, B, C and D. In a mall this size, we really
shouldn't have D locations, but this has really been a very
challenged end of the mall. We're really hoping by doing this
food court, it should just really open that up and bnng the traffic
flow from Parisian all the way to that end of the mall and really
help us to better be able to lease and increase the business
overall lhroughoutthe entire center. So that is my part, and I'm
going to tum it over to our architects. Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask her just one question. How many
restaurants are in the mall right now?
Ms. Graulau:
We have Subway in almost a food court sized space. We have
Leo's Coney Island, Olga's, California Pizza Kitchen, Bar Louie
and Max & Irma's. So we have five restaurants ... well, four
sit-down restaurants and one fast food.
Mr. LaPine:
I guess my question was, do the clients you have there now, the
restaurant owners, are they in favor of this? Isn't this putting
competition to them?
Ms. Graulau:
And I have talked to the restaurant mangers. They have said,
"What do you mean we're putting a food court in?" Our
thoughts are it's an entirely different type of clientele that visits
the food court. Food court is fast casual, fast food, in and out,
whereas Max & Irma's, Bar Louie, Olga's and California Pizza
Kitchen, and even Leo's, they are sit-down type restaurants.
They are the sit-down restaurants. Three out of those four have
liquor licenses or five have liquor licenses. So you're not
obviously going to have sit down and a glass of wine or cocktail
in the food court. It's really an entirely different concept. And
that's what we are. I've sold it to them as. Are they a little bit
concerned? Yes, they have expressed that concern as well, but
that's what our mentality has been. It really is a different
concept.
December 11, 2007
24491
Mr. La Pine:
Are you telling me that most of your draw to the food court will
be people who come into the center shopping or will some of it
be from the office lowers that are around there?
Ms. Graulau:
Office buildings, the surrounding office buildings that want a
quick lunch. Mostly even impulse items, quickly if they've got
the kids in low. They quickly want to ran in and grab a slice of
pizza and be on their way.
Andrew Cottrell,
Nudell Architects, 31690 W. Twelve Mile Road, Farmington
Hills, Michigan 48334. I'd like to hand out an additional sheet
here. It shows more of a perspective of the interior.
Mr. Walsh:
Just hand them to Mr. Wilshaw. He will pass them right along.
Mr. Cottrell:
What I'd like to go through here today is kind of just the basic
layout of the food court and the concept behind whallhe design
is. As it was explained, basically this whole area right here is
existing mall that we're going to be removing and placing the
food court in. Approximately half of that space is going to be the
actual food court tenants and the service spaces needed to
provide the food court, and the balance of the space will be the
actual seating area. When going into this from a design
standpoint and trying to come up with a theme for it, we looked
at the mall itself. It is a smaller mall in the metro Detroit area
market so we looked at it as kind of a boutique mall, and kind of
drawing from that, what does boutique mean to us? We were
thinking along the lines of cafes and outdoor cafes for eating
purposes, and land of an outdoor cafe. What does that kind of
tell us about intimacy and different places where people can sit
and eat and have conversations and things like that? So in the
course of laying out mostly the sealing area, we looked at how
can we provide a lot of different types of seating for different
types of people that are going to be using the food court. You'll
have your moms with the kids; you'll have after-school
teenagers that visit the mall; you'll have seniors possibly in the
morning or Tale afternoon; you'll have the movie crowd probably
before movies. So trying to do that, we're providing a lot of
different sealing, kind of coming from this way, which is the
mall's number one entrance between Bar Louie coming into it.
We tried to create a focal built-in seating area to kind of lead
you into the food court area. This area here would be basically
our circulation space in front of all the food court tenants, and as
you work your way in, we get into more of the informal kind of
outdoor cafe -style of seating. We're doing some built-in seating
here to kind of screen you from the actual food court tenants so
that you can have more of an intimate conversation without
overhearing somebody ordering or cooks yelling. In this area,
December 11, 2007
24492
which is the bulk of the seating, we had an opportunity because
of the existing health club that was in there; it was a two-story
health dub. So our ceiling height is very tall. We had the
opportunity to raise the ceiling up to 20 feet in this area with the
addition of 18 new skylights to try and create a very open
feeling, almost like you were sitting outside, and then going
back in and adding in actual canopies and trees into that area
along with the cafe -style seating, which would be a comfortable
metal type of seating with a complementary table. As I stated
before, then at the edge of the seating where it meets the mall
common area, trying to create an informal buffer with movable
landscaping in the way we arrange the tables. In this area right
here, we're kind of calling it our focal point for everything
because you do have your common hall coming this way, one
coming this way and the main way coming up. Everything
converges at that point. Currently, it's an area where they
display Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and do other special
events during the year. We wanted to keep that but also try to
incorporate it into the food court. What we're proposing to do
actually is a built-in fireplace that's kind of on the existing lease
line fight now but proposed to do some more soft seating areas
that people can take food and sit there and eat, but more
lounging type of sealing that say, when itis time for Santa Claus
to go in, this stuff gets removed and Santa gets set up in front of
a nice fireplace. It's a nice focal point for everybody year round.
This is a kind of a cross section through the food court area just
to kind of give you a feel of what you're going to encounter.
This area here is kind of this built-in focal seating that it's kind of
got a wood slat wall that you can see through but gives you the
privacy feeling when you're actually sitting in that area. This
area, which would be right here, we have a lower ceiling height
so we're putting in a couple skylights to kind of break that open
again. Once you get into this larger area, you can see the
bumped up ceiling with the proposed new skylights and the
actual food court tenants behind the built-in seating area to
create a nice environment right in the middle. The handout is
what you see here. This is kind of a perspective if you were
coming off the main hallway and starting to make a left. You
see the focal area here with the fireplace. We're trying to
introduce kind of a ceiling element. The goal is, down the road,
that we would renovate the rest of the interior of the mall. So a
lot of what we are proposing here would be things that we can
repeat throughout the mall. One of the elements is a ceiling
treatment that we could do at all the focal points, along with
what we're doing with the floor patterns. That's the design in a
nutshell.
December 11, 2007
24493
Ms. Graulau: If I can just add too, going back to the question about the food
court and the sit-down restaurants, when we sat down and
looked at this idea, one of the malls that I sort of modeled my
ideas, and thankfully as the mall manager, this company CLV
they do take our input - is Franklin Park in Toledo. When they
remodeled their center and they added kind of a little bit of a
streetscape with a bunch of sit-down restaurants - they added
Claddaugh and Bmvo a couple of other restaurants that I can't
think of night now. They added a food court and they added a
fireplace, and we said, that is going to be a key component. So
no matter what you do with the budget, don't lake that out
because we really want this to be a gathering area. We want
W-Fi in there, we want people to be able to come in, sit down,
be able to play on their computers, do what they want to do,
have a cup of coffee or a cup of lea or whatever and just have it
become more of a gathering space, and that's something you
can't really do in a sit-down restaurant. So we wanted it to be
more of an open gathering area.
Mr. Walsh: Thank you. Any questions? Thank you, both of you for being
with us. Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak
for or against this item? Good evening.
Melissa McBride, General Manager, Max and Enna's, 37714 Six Mile Road,
Livonia. Good evening. I understand that this spot has been
very hard to bring tenants in and stuff like that because of the
entrance to the mall. It is in the back of the mall. But with there
being five other restaurants in the mall, plus we have Sweet
Lorraine's in the Marriott, and Subway and Godiva and Mrs.
Fields and stuff like that, I just feel that right now with that area
being such a large area, we should concentrate on bringing
more retail into the mall. We need to make it more of a
destination spot. When I think of going to Twelve Oaks, I don't
think of where I'm going to go to eat there. I think of the shops
that they have, the signature shops and stuff like that, such as
Buikd-a-Bear, Yankee Candle, whatnot. I think we need to get
more of those stores into our mall to bring the people in, rather
than adding six or seven fast food restaurants that's going to
define the image of our mall. I mean if you think of Laurel Park,
a higher end mall, people come there to do the walking, see the
stores that we have, whatnot, and I think by adding a food court,
it's going to decline the image that we have already built for our
mall. I like the idea of the fireplace and the silting area and
whatnot, but just adding those fast food places, I think we're
going to get more of the teenagers, whatnot, coming into our
mall and declining the image that we have already built with the
citizens of Livonia.
December 11, 2007
24494
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. We appreciate you being here. Is there anyone
else wishing to speak? There's someone over here.
Laura Wilson,
37440 North Laurel Park Drive. I live in Aspen Place, which is
next to the mall. As they said, there's all kinds of restaurants in
there, most of them are not filled, or at least some of them are
not. Within about two miles, there must be hundreds of
restaurants and fast food places. Just go along Haggerty, go
along Six Mile. There's just loo many. We don't need any more
and also I don't think it's good for the mall. It sort of
downgrades it, fast food restaurants. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you for being here. S there anybody in the audience
that wishes to speak for or against this petition? Seeing no one
coming forward, the public hearing is closed. Mr. LaPine?
Mr. LaPine:
I have a couple more questions for the manager of the mall.
The manager from Max & Erma's brought up the point that was
in my mind. This is beautiful. Quite frankly, I like it, but one of
the problems I have, I like Laurel Park. My wife goes there all
the time because she likes Pansian more than anything else.
Its probably the number one spot for her.
Ms. Graulau:
Thank you.
Mr. LaPine:
But the problem I have, to me, we're making this very
comfortable for teenagers to make a hangout here. Now, the
shopping center at Seven Mile and Middlebelt Road was a great
shopping center until the teenagers went in there, and before
we knew it, there were more problems with teenagers sitting
around. If they go to a food court to get a pizza, they can stay
there all day. Now, how are you going to control that kind of
sluff where we don't have those types of problems?
Ms. Graulau:
Once the food court is open, obviously we'll have increased
security. Our leasing efforts are not geared toward ... we don't
have the stores that the kids quote unquote want to shop at.
Mr. LaPine:
Now you don't, but I'm saying ...
Ms. Graulau:
My Regional Leasing Director is adamant that we won't do that.
We've been holding focus groups and meeting with our
customers to sit down with them. What is it that you'd like to
see at Laurel Park? We did, oh my gosh, 850 surveys we went
through in the course of a two -and -a -half month time period,
and the lop three requested stores were Abercrombie & Filch,
Hollister and Forever 21, all three leen requested stores. I sal
down with my leasing team, and I said, you know, it isn't just the
December 11, 2007
24495
teenagers that are requesting this because right now we don't
have the teen population shopping in this mall. These are
parents that are in here shopping that are saying, I don't shop
your mall. I go to Twelve Oaks because I can't shop your mall
for my children, so I bypass your mall. My regional marketing
director is offced out of my mall. Her sister lives in Canton, has
two teenage children, and her sister had never even heard of
Laurel Park. And she's lived here the entire time the mall was
built because she said, I just drive right by because you don't
have the stores that we want to shop. We said, if we add only
one of those stores, it would have to be Abercrombie & Finch
and that's it. And Abercrombie & Finch have turned us down
because they are not doing any stores in Michigan right now,
unfortunately because of our economy. It is agreed upon by my
Regional Leasing Director, my VP of Leasing all the way up to
my Senior VP of Leasing, we are not going to tum this mall into
a teen oriented mall. We are still targeting that higher
demographic tenant that goes along with the Talbot's, the
Chico's, the Sonoma, the Coldwater Creek, that targets and
complements the current mix that we already have.
Mr. La Pine: Is your leasing now, is it pretty much full?
Ms. Graulau: No, right now, we're not full. If you include that health club in
there, we're like 86 percent occupied, which I guess in
retrospect, that's pretty occupied.
Mr. LaPine: Let me ask one more question. Do you feel this court will help
you get some new tenants in there? Is that what you're hoping
for?
Ms. Graulau: Especially at that end of the mall, absolutely. I mean we have
four vacancies that have been vacant since we bought this mall
right there at that end of the mall. We Vied. Melissa brought up
a great point. And some of those tenants that she suggested,
we're going after. Crate & Barrel, they will not take that space
because there is no frontage on Six Mile or Newburgh. No
frontage. There's no way I can give them frontage on Six Mile
and Newburgh. So they will not take that space. I understand
Schostak was courting Arhaus, the furniture store. They ended
up going someplace else before we bought the mall. Because
it's on the back of the building, we thought of a gourmet grocery
store but there's no room to give them. So we had sat down
and thought of every concept, but for 12,500 square fool
vacancy on the back of the mall behind other tenant spaces,
between all of us that have been on this executive team trying to
think of what to do with this space, I mean we probably have
over 100 years in this business combined. And we are at a
December 11, 2007
24496
loss. As far as the other tenant names that she mentioned, trust
me. We are targeting them, and they will go anywhere from The
Limited to Eddie Bauer. That's the only places they want to go.
Mr. La Pine:
I'm in favor of the proposal. My worry is that we dont tum it into
what l just said.
Ms. Graulau:
And that is our worry and my Regional Leasing Director will not
lel me. He is like a caged pit but. You do not want to irritate
him.
Mr. LaPine:
Just don't make it too soft or put a television set up there.
People will spend the whole day.
Ms. Graulau:
No. We would move them along. I just might have to get some
of my own staff.
Ms. Vartoogian:
I just have one question. Will smoking be permitted in this
area?
Ms. Graulau:
No, no.
Ms. Vartoogian:
All right. Thank you.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Are there going to be any televisions in that seating area?
Ms. Graulau:
Not that I know of. I mean we worked with Brighthouse
Networks on ... they're currently a sponsor in the mall. We
wanted to do a TV in our soft sealing area but it never came to
fruition. So right now, that is not on the plan. We have our LED
directones right now in the mall.
Mr. Wilshaw:
The reason I ask is, that tends to be very family friendly or kid
friendly and I can see that TVs would certainly make this a less
high end area.
Ms. Graulau:
To hang out and just watch it. It's highly unlikely that would
happen. If we do any sort of screens in the mall, they're going
to have rolling advertisements or something.
Mr. Wilshaw:
The one thing we haven't talked about is, what kind of operators
are going to be in these food court booths? Are these going to
be some sort of operators that are higher end that would be in
keeping with the mall's image or are these going to be the
standard food court operators that I would see at Twelve Oaks,
Livonia Mall or somewhere else?
December 11, 2007
24497
Ms. Graulau:
Well actually, Twelve Oaks has some nice ones. We have one
that we're talking to that's at Twelve Oaks and actually at
Haggerty and Eight Mile. Until leases are signed, I don't want to
give out names. We have one lease out for signature that's in
Somerset's food court. The only lease we have signed on right
now is Asian Too. I don't know if I kept their brochure in here. I
did, which is a pan -Asian eatery. They serve sushi. This is their
brochure. This is one of their outdoor concepts. Right now,
we're planning a pizza place. We're planning like I said one of
the concepts that's currently at Twelve Oaks, we're talking to
them. We have a lease out for signature with somebody at
Somerset's food court. Currently, we do not have anyone with
burgers. We may enter into negotiations with Subway to
relocate. There's always that option so we don't have overlap
there. We're going to be very conscious to make sure we don't
overlap. If we do a Sbarro's deal, do we really think that's
competition with California Pizza Kitchen? To us, it's totally
different.
Mr. Wilshaw:
I'm going to twsl that you know how to operate your facility the
best, and I think looking A the plan, it looks like an attractive
space. That is a difficult area for the mall. It has been for a long
time. I'm just going to hope that you do it in such a way that's in
keeping with the image the mall has always had and that it
doesn't detract from it in anyway.
Mr. LaPine:
I have a couple other questions. Now, you show here ice cream
treats. Is Sander's still going to be ...
Ms. Graulau:
Isn't that on your rendering?
Mr. LaPine:
I understand that, but I'm saying ...
Ms. Graulau:
We we not going to add ice cream into the food court. No.
Sander's is slaying right where they are.
Mr. LaPine:
When you talk about a pizza place, you can go into California
Pizza. Can a person go in there and order a carryout and eat it
in the court?
Ms. Graulau:
Oh, sure.
Mr. LaPine:
This can be used by anyone.
Ms. Graulau:
Absolutely.
Ms. Varloogian:
I just have one final question and that would be, what are your
anticipated hours of operation for the food court?
December 11, 2007
24498
Ms. Graulau: The food court is typically open ... we ask them to be open
during the same mall hours but not a lot of people are eating
lunch at 10:00 a.m. in the morning. So they will typically open
by 11:00 a.m. and they close at 9:00 p.m. when the mall closes,
and then noon to 6:00 p.m. on Sundays.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additions questions or comments? Seeing none,
then a motion is in order.
On a motion by Smiley, seconded by McDermott, and unanimously adopted, it
was
#12-135-2007 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Heanng hating been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-0240 submitted by Nudell Architects
requesting waiver use approval to provide a food court within
the existing Laurel Park Place Mall and tenant area at 37700 Six
Mile Road, located on the north side of Six Mile Road between
Newburgh Road and Laurel Park Dnve in the Southeast % of
Section 7, which property is zoned C-2, the Planning
Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that
Petition 2007-11-0240 be approved for the following reasons or
subject to the following conditions:
1. That the food court shall be constmcted in accordance with
the Proposed Floor Plan prepared by Nudell Architects,
dated November 27, 2007;
2. That the maximum seating capacity of the food court shall
not exceed 300 seats;
3. That the specific plan referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the special and
general waiver use standards and requirements as set
forth in Sections 11.03 and 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance
#543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use;
December 11, 2007
24499
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any additional discussion?
Mr. LaPine: Just one comment, Mr. Chairman. I'm voting for it and I'm
hoping that it will generale business for the center. We don't
want anything to happen to that center. That's one of our gems
in Livonia and anything we can do to help you, I think all the
departments will work with you to try and help you get new
tenants in there if it's possible. So good luck and we hope that it
works out. I just hope that it doesn't end up like the one at
Wonderland Mall.
Ms. Graulau:
No. Thank you very much.
Mr. Walsh:
I just have a couple comments. I'm going to support this item.
Its interesting that you brought up Twelve Oaks. I notice that
when Twelve Oaks made a decision to upgrade their stores,
they added a food court. So I'm not fearful that this is going to
contribute to its degradation, but its your business and I'm
going to respect that. As a father of young children who are
approaching their teenage years, I always find this talk of where
will the teenagers go and they don't belong here a little bit
troubling because the fact is, we're in your mall at least once a
week if not more often. I'll continue to feel comfortable until you
have me feel otherwise. But we have tens of thousands of
young adults in our city, and they deserve to be treated with a
welcome nature. So to that end, I'm going to be voting for this
and that concludes my comments.
Ms. Graulau:
And we still think American Eagle is a great store.
Mr. Walsh:
Its a grealslore. We go there all the time.
Ms. Smiley:
I'll give you one more comment. If Crate & Barrel won't come,
try Sur La Table. They're great. And there's a new one out at
Partridge Creek. Tell them to come west.
Ms. Graulau:
No comment. I'm aware of that.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
December 11, 2007
24500
ITEM #5 PETITION 200741-02-41 FIREARM EXCHANGE
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Pefition 2007-
11-02-41 submitted by Firearm Exchange requesting waiver use
approval to operate an indoor gun range at 30305 Schoolcraft
Road, located on the south side of Schoolcraft Road between
Middlebelt Road and Merriman Road in the Northeast ''/ of
Section 26.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning of the surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are four items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 19, 2007, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above -referenced petition. We have
no objections to the proposal or the assigned address listed
above. However, after careful examination of the legal
description, the attached plan and the City's legal description on
record, it has been determined that due to the number of
anomalies within these documents, that only a licensed land
surveyor should provide a connected legal description for this
property." The letter is signed by John P. Hill, Assistant City
Engineer. The second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue
Division, dated November 15, 2007, which reads as follows:
"This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection
with a request to operate an indoor gun range at the above -
referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal."
The letter is signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire Marshal. The
third letter is from the Inspection Department, dated November
20, 2007, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request of
October 30, 2007, the above -referenced petition has been
reviewed. The following is noted. (1) The number of parking
spaces shown on the print appears to be adequate for this use.
However, all regular parking spaces are required to be 10 feet
wide by 20 feet deep and double striped. Van accessible barrier
free parking spaces are required to a minimum of 8 feet wide
with an adjacent access aisle 8 feet wide properly signed,
striped and marked. (2) The retail sales area has been
reviewed as a small incidental accessory use to the recreational
use. (3) No signage has been reviewed at this time. Signage
would be limited to one freestanding sign not to exceed 30
square feet or to exceed 6 feet in height, 10 feet in length, and
shall have a minimum setback of 10 feet from any right -0f -way.
In lieu of a freestanding sign, then one wall sign shall be
December 11, 2007
24501
Mr.
permitted and the sign area shall not exceed 28.75 square feet.
Yes.
This Department has no further objections to this petition." The
Smiley:
letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Senior Building
Inspector.
Wong:
That is the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, we will go
Like rifles?
straight to the petitioner if they could please step forward. Good
Wong:
evening.
Wah H. Wong, Firearm Exchange, 36311 Avondale, Westland, Michigan 48186
Smiley:
Good evening.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there anything you'd like to add to the presentation thus far?
Mr. Wong:
No, not at this time.
Mr. Walsh:
Okay. Are there any questions from the Commissioners?
Ms. Smiley:
Do you currently ran a gun range someplace?
Mr. Wong:
I do not have a ran range. I have a retail gun shop in Westland.
Ms. Smiley:
Okay. And you're going to sell guns out of here?
Mr.
Wong:
Yes.
Ms.
Smiley:
Primarily handguns?
Mr.
Wong:
It would be both. A firearm could be a handgun or long gun.
Ms.
Smiley:
Like rifles?
Mr.
Wong:
Yes.
Ms.
Smiley:
Okay. Would this kind of a range be able to accommodate
police officers that need to qualify?
Mr.
Wong:
Yes. We have a few agencies that we would go with using this
facility for qualifying or different departments or agencies to use
this facility.
Ms.
Smiley:
Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr.
Wilshaw:
Mr. Wong, I had an opportunity to go see your store in
Westland. Its a nice facility. I assume that you're going to
operate this one in a similar manner. I had a hard time telling
when I was there what the size of that building is. Is the retail
space that you have here similar to that?
December 11, 2007
24502
Mr. Wong:
Yes. The building in Westland right now it's approximately
1,500 square feet.
Mr. Wilshaw:
What are you going to do with the space that is alongside the
shooting range that's currently labeled an access hallway that's
21 feet wide?
Mr. Wong:
Just storage. Al this time, nothing we're going to use that area
for.
Mr. Wilshaw:
It could be used for future expansion. If you wanted to, you
could come in front of us, I believe, and ask for that, I assume.
Mr. Wong:
Right. The only other plans that may be in the future, you know
the equipment we bought is eight lanes. Al this time, we're not
going to build extra lanes or anything, and that's what that area
might be for, extra lanes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. I have a question about how the range master area
works on your plan. Other facilities I have been in, you go to the
retail counter, say you want a lane for half an hour or hour, and
then go to whatever lane is assigned to you. You have a
separate area, however, lhafs designated as "range master'.
How is that going to work?
Mr. Wong:
That area right there, these lanes are a little bit different from
most of the ranges around here. Most of the ranges here,
you're right, you just pay for the lanes. The retrieval system for
the target system is a little bit different. These are on a track
instead of on a wire. Most of the targets are on a wire. You
push a button, like a garage door opener. It will take the target
system to the end. This one is all on a track so it's
programmable where its all electronic. There's a station here
where we can set up a course of fire. The target is on a track so
the target could edge where you can't see the target. It could
have a good guy/bad guy - the whole program sets up. It moves
on a track instead of on a wire and the range master can set
that program up for you when you use the links.
Mr. Wilshaw:
You could use that for part of your classes to teach those types
of things?
Mr. Wong:
Yes. Some of the agencies require they have to shoot and they
have to qualify as a factor where you have to shoot for their jobs
or different agencies. When this system is on a track, the target
doesn't bounce. Most of them are on a wire, so when you set it
December 11, 2007
24503
at 15 feel, it bounces a while and you get so many minutes to
shoot at the target. But this one is a little bit different.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Very good. What is the length of the range itself? It's
hard to tell from the plans. What's the shooting length?
Mr. Wong: It would be 25 feel.
Mr. Wilshaw: 25 feel. And you're only going to have handguns on the range
for shooting, right?
Mr. Wong: Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. My only other question is in regard to the security that
you're going to provide for the retail space. Obviously, you're
selling firearms, rifles, shotguns, those types of things. I
assume you're going to have some sort of safe or some sort of
facilities to put those guns after hours?
Mr. Wong: Yes. The building that we have now, we have safes to lock the
guns up and the whole building is secure. We have shutters
coming down. We plan to do the same with this building loo
where there is no access at the windows or anything like that. It
would be steel shutters coming down.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. What sort of classes are you going to teach?
Mr. Wong: You know, some of the classes ... the class that we teach right
now is for conceal carry, but part of the facility here is for
agencies, staging areas, show what they're going to shoot or
what target system.
Mr. Wilshaw: My Iasi question is, are you going to allow for rental guns for the
range if people wantto go shoot but don't own a firearm?
Mr. Wong: Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. That is the end of my questions. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any additional questions? Thank you, sir. We
appreciate your time this evening. Is there anybody in the
audience that wishes to speak for or against this petition? If so,
would you please step forward?
Julie Berger, 29652 McIntyre, Livonia. Good aftemoon. I'm not against this
range. However, there are a lot of concerns I have for the
environment and lead toxins that I think we need to consider.
Obviously, the bullets will release lead into the environment. I
December 11, 2007
24504
was wondering if City Council has considered requiring the
range to have HEPA fillers to help suppress the lead going into
the environment or other means, such as, Dexter has a range
that only allows non-toxic bullets to be used there. I was
wondering if they were ever going to consider requiring that this
range do that as well. Is there going to be any requirement on
cleaning the fillers for the environment, and who's going to
monitor that or regulate it? I'm also concerned about, he was
saying that they're only going to have handguns. Are they going
to sell things like AK47's, assault rifles, things like that, that I'm
concerned about within our community and in the schools. I
also was wondering, a community member shared with me
actually recently before I came to this meeting that there s a
water treatment near there. I don't know if that's true. But if it is
true and if it is there, would the lead contaminants affect that
facility? So my big concern is not so much the range itself, but
the environmental factors in the lead being released into the
environment. Thank you.
Mr. Belleperohe, 15725 Harrison I've been in this city since approximately 1962.
Its been a pretty good city overall. What the gun range
proposes would be of benefit to me and some of my friends,
where we can spend money in this city instead of going out to
Westland, to Royal Oak, to other ranges and even up north to
outdoor ranges. This would be a nice addifion, and it would be
a safe operation. I'm sure everything would be up to
environmental quality as required. So I'm for it. I think it would
be a plus and be no detriment to the community whatsoever.
Thank you.
Mr. Walsh: Is there anyone else wishing to speak for or against this item?
Seeing no one coming forward, I'm going to close the public
hearing. Mr. Wong, if I could just follow up on a couple
questions with you. First, I want to explain to the young lady
that spoke to us, we don't have responsibility for EPA -related
activities, but I am going to ask Mr. Wong if he can, for your
benefit and our own, to describe how you'll treat bullet waste, for
lack of a better descripfion.
Mr. Wong: Okay. Yes. This system is the newest system out. To start
with, the trap system, the containment unit, it's a wet system so
when the bullet hits the trap, there's water there so it contains all
the lead from going in here. But the most important thing is the
HEPA fillers. This system does have HEPA filters. It's showing
the system is outside the building. The shooting range itself is
going to be negative air pressure. So when a firearm or the
smoke or the powder or the lead, everything is going to go
through the filter, negative pressure. So inside the shooting unit
December 11, 2007
24505
is going to be cleaner air than what we breathe normally.
Everything is through the HEPA filters.
Mr. Walsh:
What do you do with the bullets after they've been fired?
Mr. Wong:
With the trap there, it's a snail trap, which slows down the bullet.
It goes on a conveyor and into just like a container and that
would be disposed of. There is a company thatbuys that lead.
The fillers, there's a company that services them.
Mr. Walsh:
The only remaining question I have that bothers me, you're not
putting out a bucket of lead on the comer for Waste
Management to pick up?
Mr. Wong:
No, sir.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Mr. Taormina:
Just to advise the Planning Commission, in addition to the
waiver use, the City has a licensing requirement for shooting
ranges - Section 9.92.040 of the Code of Ordinances. The City
Clerk's office would issue a license for the shooting range, and
that is only after a review and approval by the Chief of Police.
So additional reviews are required for a shooting range beyond
the waiver use. I did have a conversation with the Police
Division with respect to this proposal. They are still reviewing it.
They have indicated some concern relafive to the warehouse
portion of the building at the back of the range and what that is
going to be used for and how that's going to be protected.
These are issues that I'm sure will come up when Mr. Wong
submits his application to the Clerk's Office and it's transmitted
to the Chief of Police for his review. I just wanted you to be
aware of the additional layer of review that's required from a
public safety standpoint.
Mr. Walsh:
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mr. LaPine:
I was out and checked the range out in Westland. I noticed they
have a number of employees that are mostly all police officers.
I think the range is owned by a police officer. I noticed in our
notes here you're only going to have three employees. They
look like they have six or seven people there now. Is that
operafion a lot bigger than this operation is going to be?
Mr. Wong:
Yes, they do have more lanes. I don't know how many lanes
they do have. This is actually a pretty small facility with eight
lanes.
December 11, 2007
24506
Mr. LaPine: So three people can pretty much operate that?
Mr. Wong: Yes.
Mr. Wilshaw: Just a quick question in regard to the environmental concerns
that were raised. Gun ranges have changed a lot over the
years. They're not the smoky basement -type operations like
they used to be. It is my understanding that there is a
significant expense that goes into these new arranged trap
systems and so on because of environmental concerns. Is that
true that you're looking at spending a considerable amount of
money to build this range?
Mr. Wong:
Yes. Equipment, filtration system is quite expensive. It's
probably close to $700,000 with the equipment just for the eight
lanes.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions or comments? Seeing none
then, a motion would be in order.
On a motion by
Wilshaw, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it was
#12-136-2007
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-0241 submitted by Firearm Exchange
requesting waiver use approval to operate an indoor gun range
at 30305 Schoolcrafl Road, located on the south side of
SchoolcraR Road between Middlebelt Road and Merriman Road
in the Northeast''/. of Section 26, which property is zoned k41,
the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City
Council that Petition 2007-11-0241 be approved subject to the
following conditions:
1. That the Proposed Floor Plan submitted by Firearm
Exchange, received by the Planning Commission on
November 9, 2007, is hereby approved and shall be
adhered to, including the provisions of a proper trap
system;
2. That the building space devoted to retail sales, as an
accessory use to the recreational use, shall not exceed the
amount of floor area shown on the above -referenced Floor
Plan;
3. That the proposed shooting range shall not be operated
unless a license therefor has been procured from the City
December 11, 2007
24507
Clerk and untl the issuance of such license shall have
been approved by the Chief of Police on a reasonable
showing that the operation of the shooting range will be
properly supervised and will not constitute a danger to life
and properly;
4. That all parking spaces shall be double striped, including
the provision of barrier free parking, and all regular spaces
shall be 10' x 20' in size as required;
5. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition,
any additional signage shall be separately submitted for
review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals;
6. That no LED lighlband or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows; and
7. That the specific plan referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time the building permits are applied for.
Subject to the preceding conditions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use is in compliance with all of the
special and general waiver use standards and
requirements as set forth in Sections 16.11 and 19.06 of
the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2. That the subject property has the capacity to accommodate
the proposed use; and
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
December 11, 2007
24508
ITEM#6 PETlTION200741-02-42 LOWE'S
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2007-
11-02-42 submitted by Lowe's of Livonia requesting waiver use
approval to construct a new home improvement store located at
13507 Middlebelt Road, located on the west side of Middlebelt
Road between SchoolcraR Road and Industrial Road in the
Northeast % of Section 26.
Mr. Taormina presented a map showing the property under petition plus the
existing zoning ofthe surrounding area.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any correspondence?
Mr. Nowak: There are four items of correspondence. The first item is from
the Engineering Division, dated November 19, 2007, which
reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the Engineering
Division has reviewed the above-referenced petition. We have
no objections to the proposal, the above address for the
referenced property or the legal description provided." The
letter is signed by John P. Hill, Assistant City Engineer. The
second letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated
November 19, 2007, which reads as follows: "This office has
reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to
construct a new home improvement store on property located at
the above-referenced address. We have no objections to this
proposal." The letter is signed by Andrew C. Walker, Fire
Marshal. The third letter is from the Division of Police, dated
November 16, 2007, which reads as follows: We have reviewed
the plans in connection with Lowe's of Livonia, located at 13507
Middlebelt. We have no objections or recommendations to the
plans as submitted." The letter is signed by David W. Studt,
Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The fourth letter is from the Inspection
Department, dated November 20, 2007, which reads as follows:
"Pursuant to your request of October 30, 2007, the above-
referenced petition has been reviewed. The following is noted.
(1) All regular parking spaces are required to be 10 feet wide by
20 feet deep and double striped. As drawn, this plan would
require a variance from the Zoning Board of Appeals for some
deficient size parking spaces. (2) A minimum of 740 parking
spaces are required wih a minimum 15 barrier free spaces (3
van accessible) included in that total. As 577 spaces are
proposed, the site is deficient 163 spaces and would require a
variance from The Zoning Board of Appeals for said deficiency.
The number of barrier free spaces (15) is not waivable by the
City of Livonia. (3) The plan as presented shows an excess
number of wall signs and ground signs. A variance from the
December 11, 2007
24509
Zoning Board of Appeals would be required for excess number
of signs and placement of signs. (4) The proposed height of the
building is 50 feet where only 35 feet is permitted. This height is
allowable as the petition has met and exceeded the increased
setback required. (5) The plan details three areas of
unscreened outside display. This is not allowed by zoning
ordinance and would further increase their parking deficiency by
82 spaces. The outside display may be allowed by a super
majority affirmative vote f om Council but that would trigger the
additional parking deficiency, which would require approval for
the Zoning Board of Appeals. (6) The outdoorparking lights are
detailed at 38 feet in height. The Commission and/or Council
may wish to review the proposed height. (7) There is a lease
agreement referenced along the west property line on sheet SP
2.0. On sheet SP 4.0 it is not referenced. The Commission
and/or Council may wish to clarify the status of said lease. This
Department has no further objections to this petition." The letter
is signed by Jerome Hanna, Senior Building Inspector. That is
the extent of the correspondence.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the staff? Seeing none, we will go
to the petitioner.
Tom A. Ebels, Lowe's Home Centers, Inc., 1952 McDowell Road, Suite 101,
Naperville, Illinois 60563. 1 am Lowe's Site Development
Manager. I have with me Gregg Tannar from Atwell -Hicks.
He's my design engineer and my right hand man on this project.
Back on October 22, we met with a number of City officials.
Some of you I recognize from that meeting. We had a very
productive discussion, took away a number of very good
suggestions, and in the meantime, have worked extensively with
Mr. Taormina. He's been a pleasure to work with, and I think
we've come up with a proposal we're very proud to present
tonight. What I'd like to do is just have Gregg go through and
briefly describe some of the adjustments that we made as a
result of our first meeting and also our coordination with staff.
And then I'd like to turn it back over to you for any questions that
you may have for Gregg or me.
Gregg K. Tannar, P.E., Atwell -Hicks, L.L.C., 50182 Schoenherr, Shelby
Township, Michigan 48315. Good evening. I think the most
significant improvement since our original meeting is the
addition of the forebay and the removal of the water quality
units. I think that's a preferred item for not only Lowe's but the
city as well. It puts us in line with the current Wayne County
Storm Water control ordinance, which is what we were following
for this plan. Since that meeting, I've also met with the Wayne
County Traffic Division regarding the entrance on Middlebell.
December 11, 2007
24510
They're very agreeable to removing the two existing full access
drives and making that a night in and right out. Plus I've had a
chance to meet with John Hill, and we've come up with a plan
for the pond, which I think will drastically improve the existing
condition and bring this into conformance with Wayne County's
requirements for storm water. Other than that, if you have any
questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
Mr. Walsh: Are there any questions for the petitioner?
Ms. Smiley: Its more of a comment. The new building with the brick is very
attractive, and I also appreciate that you went to the bigger size
parking spaces. I know that you're deficient in a number of
them. I have a Mountaineer myself and when you're coming
and trying to load stuff in and out, you really need the right
parking spot. I appreciate that. And your building's beautiful.
Mr. Tannar: Thank you.
Ms. McDermott: I wanted to ask about the three monument signs. So you
basically have those because there's three entrances. My
comment is that you can see the large Lowe's sign, I'm sure,
from Middlebell Road and from Industrial Drive. I understand
more so having the monument sign off of SchoolcraR because
you cant really see the sign, but I'm thinking that the other two
might be a little bit redundant. Do you have any comments to
that?
Mr. Tanner: Well, I would say the Industrial Drive sign is kind of a late edition
and the thinking on that is, with the TCF Bank there, it kind of
obscures the Lowe's sign. But since that is a right in right out
only, if you're going northbound on Middlebelt and you miss that
light, you're not aware that Lowe's is there and you miss that
turn, you've got to make a large turning movement around 1-96,
which unfortunately takes you right past our competition. So
that would be the purpose of the Industrial Drive sign. I think
we've been talking with Tom that we can make that more of a
directional sign and not a full-scale monument sign. That's kind
of a small area now with it built out and a slope there. Maybe a
monument sign wouldn't look so good and be difficult to build
and maintain. But then the other two signs are just there
because of the access points of the two roads.
Ms. McDermott: Okay. What type of products are going to be displayed in the
outdoor display areas that are mentioned?
Mr. Ebels: We have a number of outdoor display areas. I'll just run through
a couple of them. Along the front of the store and the sidewalk
December 11, 2007
24511
area, I'll start at the garden center. That area is a seasonal area
that is used most typically for flowers between the months of
Apnl and July - are the most productive months there. More in
the central area of the store, those items are also seasonal. In
the winter you'll see snow blowers, large items like grills in the
summer, snow blowers in the winter and lawn mowers in the
summer, that sort of thing. And then moving to the lumber
canopy, that area is typically items that are underneath the
lumber canopy, usually heavier items that might be loaded into
a contractor vehicle like drywall, Quikcmte, those sorts of items.
One of the important things to note when you're talking about
the outdoor display items, it's not just for a visual display or for
sales purposes. It also is an important safety measure that we
have. When we have a large product like a grill that would need
to be removed from an interior part of the store, it's much easier
and much safer to load that directly into a vehicle. When we
have a large product like that, we would potentially use a forklift
and shut down aisles as per company policy. It typically
becomes a pretty big operation and one that we'd rather not
have customers exposed to moving forklifts and that kind sort
thing. So that really is an important safety feature to the outdoor
display. In addition to that, we do have an area out in the
parking lot. That area typically has mulch, used again
seasonally, and the same sort of logic applies to that area.
Those are faidy heavy bags of material. Its much easier to load
into a car and makes it that much more accessible, and that way
we're not going to cross paths with other customers who might
be entering or leaving the store.
Ms. McDermott
Okay. Then the bags of mulch and large items like the grills and
lawnmowers everything, what I'm hearing is they are going to
slay oulthere all the time.
Mr. Ebels:
Those do remain outside all the time, yes, if its allowed.
Mrs. McDermott:
I may have missed this so I apologize. Is there any kind of
fencing or security there?
Mr. Ebels:
In terms of fencing around the product? No, not typically. You
will see a chain or some sort of security device to keep it from
being removed, but there is no fence. We do like to have a
fence display out in front as well. That's one item I missed.
Also, we like to have full-size sheds along the garden center
where its allowed. Again, those are full size items. They tend
to show a lot better if someone can walk in and actually see the
amount of space they will have when they bang them home.
Mrs. McDermott:
Okay. Thank you.
December 11, 2007
24512
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional questions?
Mr. Morrow:
Yes. I wonder if you could explain to me the elevation, which I
think is the north elevation you see from SchoolcraR. Could you
go over the detail of that because that's one of the elevations
that will be exposed to the public.
Mr. Ebels:
The north elevation being the garden center side?
Mr. Morrow:
Yes, the expressway side of SchoolcraR.
Mr. Ebels:
Yes. One of the things that we've done since the first iteration
that we had, we've added pilasters. We dressed that area up
quite a bit in order to make it aesthetically pleasing from
SchoolcraR Road.
Mr. Morrow:
Is that the one you refer to as the right elevation?
Mr. Ebels:
Yes, the right elevation.
Mr. Morrow:
That's quite a contrast to the original plan that we saw.
Mr. Ebels:
Yes, we have dressed it up quite a bit. Again, we look a lot out
of the meeting we had on the 22"d of October, and I think we
made a number of improvements.
Mr. Morrow:
The truck bays are part of that elevation also?
Mr. Ebels:
Yes.
Mr. Morrow:
Thank you.
Mr. LaPine
First lel me say, I'm happy to see you changed it from the gray.
The gray just did nothing for me. Now, Mr. Morrow has pointed
out about the north elevation on Schoolcraft. The one you have
in Madison Heights here shows the trees and shrubs that helps
it to lake away the look of all that stuff. I went out to Westland
yesterday to check on the rifle range. We went by one there. I
looked at all that stuff standing out there. Number two, I'm not
extremely happy yet with the design of the building. Mr. Wilshaw
showed me some designs of your stores in other states that are
a lot better looking than this store. If Mr. Wilshaw will show
those to you, I'll show you what I like. Here's one here. Why
can't we gel something similar to what is done here at these
locations?
December 11, 2007
24513
Mr. Walsh:
You might want to pass those along, and Ms. Watson can hand
them to him.
Mr. LaPine:
I'd just like to get some more design into the building than just a
straight flat building. These buildings are nice looking buildings.
Mr. Ebels:
What I would say is, I guess Mr. Taormina pointed out, we have
made an extensive number of upgrades to this particular
building. This is by no means a prototypical sort of building.
The buildings shown here, each of these has a story attached to
R. I'm not familiar with each and every one of these, but it really
depends on the budget that we have to work with. What I have
to work with in one place is not what I may have to work with in
another. I've added quite a bit of expense to this building. I've
upgraded it extensively, and I think I've done pretty much what I
can do in order to address any of the comments that we've had.
I'm certainly willing to go back and look, but I'm not sure there's
a whole lot more in terms of upgrade that I can do.
Mr. LaPine:
You have to admit that's a better looking designed building than
this straight flat looking building in my opinion.
Mr. Ebels:
Again, it may well be that in this case, I don't know what the
economics were with that particular site. It's very hard to say
what dictated that or how it got to be that way.
Mr. LaPine:
I just want us to gel the best we can get. If another community
can get that type of construction, I don't see any reason why we
in Livonia can't get the same type of design or something. I'm
not saying everything has to be the same, but this still just looks
like one flat building. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm the only one
that feels that way, but I do feel we can improve this a little bit
yet, I believe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Walsh:
Any additional questions?
Mr. Wilshaw:
I'll admit I have a terrible imagination, and looking at these
renderings, the original ones presented to us, which was call it
the gray building, from what I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong.
Basically what you've change between the gray building and
what I'm seeing on that screen is the gray areas are now brick
or is that like a brick veneer or something along those lines? Is
that basically the upgrades that have been made to this point?
Mr. Ebels:
I believe the first rendition we had did have a brick veneer to it.
This is a CMU product, that's split face CMU. We've added a
peak feature over the outdoor display area, which is adjacent to
the garden center. We've also added canopies on the lumber
December 11, 2007
24514
portion of the building, as well as E.I.F.S. corner onto the top
along the roofline there, and glass was another addition to give
the effect of windows and a two-story look.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Looking at the renderings provided from the three other
locations by you, the Madison Heights location appears to be
the closest basically to what I'm seeing on that screen. Is that a
fair assessment to say that, with the exception of the fact that
our location has windows on the second story?
Mr. Ebels:
No, not exactly a fair assessment. The Madison Heights
building is a precast building with a brick imprint. This is a CMU
structure.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Are you familiar with the facility that's in Lyon Township at
Milford Road and 96?
Mr. Ebels:
Thatwas a little bit before my time here in Michigan.
Mr. Wilshaw:
Okay. I went by that one a couple weeks ago and it seems to
be a faidy attractive building. It fit into their whole center quite
nicely. It was using several different building materials on its
fascia, brick and other types of material that looked like cultured
stone perhaps. That's just my comment to this point. You know
this is the first time I've had a chance to look at this. I wasn't
part of the original meetings in October, but from what I can tell
at this point, it's getting better, but I do think that even from the
pictures I've been provided, there's certainly opportunity for
improvement. That's my comment at this point.
Mr. Walsh:
Are there any additional comments or questions?
Mr. Morrow
Mr. Chairman, can I see those four elevations again? My
comment is, I think we've made a step in the right direction. As
one commissioner, where I'm coming from, we have a location
there with a tremendous eyesore. It appears that the petitioner
is giving us what he can based on the budget he's been allotted
to improve that site. As one commissioner, with these changes,
I'm content. Thank you.
Mr. La Pine:
Can we get the photographs back and let the other members
look at them. I'm not content personally. I think we can get
better than what we've got. Just because it's a bad location
now, and it is and I agree with you. Probably anything that goes
in there will be an improvement over what's been there, but still,
whatever we get there, we're going to live with for many, many
years. So let's get the best we can gel. That's all I'm saying.
December 11, 2007
24515
Mr. Walsh: Are there further any questions for the pettoner? Seeing none,
thank you gentlemen for being here. We appreciate it. I don't
believe there are any independent people in the audience that
need to address us, and with that statement, a motion would be
in order atthis point in time.
On a motion by Smiley, seconded by Morrow, and adopted, itwas
#12-137-2007 RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-0242 submitted by Lowe's of Livonia
requesting waiver use approval to construct a new home
improvement store located at 13507 Middlebell Road, located
on the west side of Middlebelt Road between Schoolcra0 Road
and Industnal Road in the Northeast % of Section 26, which
property is zoned C-2, the Planning Commission does hereby
recommend to the City Council that Pelifion 2007-11-0242 be
approved subject to the following condi0ons:
1. That the Site Layout Plan marked Sheet SP4.0 prepared
by Atwell-Hicks, dated November 9, 2007, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to;
2. That the Landscape Plan marked Sheet SP-9.0 prepared
by Atwell-Hicks, dated November 9, 2007, is hereby
approved and shall be adhered to, subject to the following
stipulations:
- That all disturbed lawn areas, with the exception of the
proposed detention pond, shall be sodded in lieu of
hydroseeding;
- That all lawn and landscape areas shall be irrigated by
an automatic underground irrigation system;
- That all planted materials shall be installed to the
satisfaction of the Inspection Department and thereafter
permanently maintained in a healthy condition;
3. That the Building Elevations Plan prepared by BRR
Architecture, dated December 7, 2007, is hereby approved
and shall be adhered to;
4. That the precast masonry unit system used in the
construction of the building shall meet ASTM 216
standards;
5. That all parking spaces shall be double striped;
December 11, 2007
24516
6. That any deficiencies with respect to numbers of parking
spaces and deficient size parking spaces shall require
variances from the Zoning Board of Appeals;
7. That all pole mounted light fixtures shall be shielded to
minimize glare trespassing on adjacent properties and
roadway and such equipment shall not exceed 35 feel in
height above grade;
8. That all rooftop mechanical equipment shall be concealed
from public view on all sides by screening that shall be of a
compatible character, material and color to other exterior
materials on the building;
9. That the petitioner shall secure the necessary stormwater
permits from Wayne County, the City of Livonia, and/or the
State of Michigan;
10. That any unscreened outdoor display areas shall require
the submission of additional detailed information prior to
their approval. The prohibition of outdoor sales, storage or
display of merchandise must be waived or modified by the
City Council by means of a separate resolution in which
two-thirds of the members of the City Council concur.
Also, any additional parking deficiency resulting from the
outdoor display shall require a variance from the Zoning
Board of Appeals;
11. That the petitioner shall seek any needed variance from
the Zoning Board of Appeals relating to building height;
12. That the Developer shall submit for approval an ongoing
mosquito control program, as approved by the Department
of Public Works, describing maintenance operations and
larvicide applications to the City of Livonia Inspection
Department prior to the construction of the stormwater
detention facility;
13. That the owner shall provide annual reports to the
Inspection Department on the maintenance and larvicide
treatments completed on the stormwater detention pond;
14. That wall signage for this use shall be limited to the signs
portrayed on the above -referenced Building Elevations
Plan, and freestanding signs shall be limited to the signs
portrayed on the above -referenced Site Plan and on the
Monument Sign Plan prepared by BRR Architecture,
December 11, 2007
24517
subject to variances being granted by the Zoning Board of
Appeals for excess sign area and excess number of wall
signs on the east elevation and also to allow two
monument signs. Any additional signage shall be
separately submitted for review and approval by the
Planning Commission and City Council;
15. That no LED lighthand or exposed neon shall be permitted
on this site including, but not limited to, the building or
around the windows; and
16. That the specific plans referenced in this approving
resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department
at the time of Application for the building permits.
Subject to the preceding condifions, this petition is approved for
the following reasons:
1. That the proposed use complies with all of the general
waiver use standards and requirements as set forth in
Section 19.06 of the Zoning Ordinance #543;
2. That the subject site has the capacity to accommodate the
proposed use;
3. That the proposed use is compatible to and in harmony
with the surrounding uses in the area; and
4. That the proposed use will provide a viable alternative use
for the subject property.
FURTHER RESOLVED, that notice of the above hearing was
given in accordance with the provisions of Section 19.05 of
Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended.
Mr. Walsh: Is there any discussion?
Mr. LaPine: I'd like to make a substitute motion that we table this and give
the petitioner a chance to go back to his management and see if
we can get a better design similar to what we've seen tonight in
the photographs that Mr. Wilshaw showed us.
Mr. Walsh: We have a tabling motion, the nature of which does not permit
additional discussion. Is there support?
December 11, 2007
24518
On a motion by La Pine, seconded by McDermott, it was
RESOLVED, that pursuant to a Public Hearing having been
held by the City Planning Commission on December 11, 2007,
on Petition 2007-11-02-02 submitted by Lowe's of Livonia
requesting waiver use approval to construct a new home
improvement store located at 13507 Middlebelt Road, located
on the west side of Middlebelt Road between Schoolcrafl Road
and Industrial Road in the Northeast % of Section 26, which
property is zoned C-2, the Planning Commission does hereby
table this item.
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following
AYES:
LaPine, McDermott, Wilshaw
NAYES:
Morrow, Vartoogian, Smiley, Walsh
ABSTAIN:
None
ABSENT:
None
Mr. Walsh: The motion
fails. Is there discussion on the primary motion?
Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, I just want to make a comment that I sal in this room when
Wal -Marl came to us about the same property many years ago.
There was a lot of discussion about that building, the
appearance of that building, and what it means for this comer of
the city, which is a fairly significant comer of our city at
Middlebelt and Schoolcraft. It has high visibility. It's a good
location. Wal-Mart basically said to the city at that time a very
similar comment. Well, we have a budget and this is about the
best we can do. It was a drab gray building with a blue Wal -
marl sign on it. Be that as it may, fortunately Wal-Mart has
moved to a better location and provided a much better looking
building down at the Wonderland facility. So we're back to
where we were. This is still an important corner of our city, if
now more than ever under current economic limes, and I'm
thrilled to see Lowe's wanting to come to the city and go into
this property. With that in mind, I hope that Lowe's is there for a
long time. I hope it's not a temporary building like it was for
Wal-Mart. I would like to see Lowe's make this the best building
possible for our community and for them because it reflects
upon them. For that reason, I would have liked to see more
effort be made in going back to the management of the
company, seeing if that budget could be increased, if materials
could be improved, that type of thing. I haven't seen that
tonight. Therefore, I will be voting against it. Thankyou.
Mr. LaPine: I echo what Mr. Wilshaw said. I sal here for over a year when
we heard the Wal-Mart case, and every time we wanted to do
December 11, 2007
24519
something, they said, "No, we cant afford it. We can't do d."
But after over a years time working between us and the City
Council, I think we ended up with a really good facility up there
at Plymouth and Middlebelt Road. I want Lowe's in town just as
much as anybody else, especially with the lax dollars that they'll
bring in, plus the business it will bring into the city. But on the
other hand, I don't think we should just give in to something
we're not comfortable with. I'm not comfortable with it. Maybe
the Council will be comfortable with it. I do not know. But from
my perspective, I believe we should lel them go back to their
management and tell them we have some concerns. Can we
do this? Can we do that? And come back to us. I dont think
it's a one of these situations where if you don't gel the thing built
tomorrow, all the word is going to come to an end. It look Wal-
Mart a year to get that thing through. I don't think that
postponing it for a couple weeks while they go back to their
management and tell them our concerns would hinder the
operation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. McDermott:
I'm not going to repeat all the same words, but I'm happy to see
Lowe's come into the city as well, but I just ditto Mr. Wilshaw
and Mr. LaPine. I just really would like to see a few more
improvements to the building. Thankyou.
Mr. Taormina:
Mr. Chairman, Condition #3 on the approving resolution
references a date on the building elevations plans of November
5. We'd like to correct that to December 7, 2007. Secondly, I
believe it is Condition #14, which references two monument
signs. The latest plan presented shows three monument signs.
It was the intent in making that motion to limit them to two
monument signs or to allow them to pursue a variance.
Ms. Smiley:
I thought the one was going to be directional?
Mr. Taormina:
Well, that's right. They did make a comment that they could
change it to directional. I'm not sure if that would qualify as a
directional sign. I'm not sure what they're proposing and
whether it qualifies as a directional sign under our ordinance or
actually would be a modified monument sign. We could add
that to come back for further review later. I'm not sure how you
want to handle that. Just limit it to two monument signs at this
lime? I wanted to point that out. That's what the motion reads.
Ms. Smiley:
Yes, I think that would be good.
Mr. Walsh:
Is there any additional commentary?
Ms. Smiley:
Mr. Morrow, are you okay with that?
December 11, 2007
24520
Mr. Morrow: It's fine with me. You're saying that if Inspection says its a
monument sign, it would have to come back?
Mr. Taormina: If they are allowed only two and they want three, yes, they
would have to come back.
Mr. Walsh: Any additional commentary? I just have a few thoughts. I
appreciate the concerns of my colleagues. I don't see what I
intend to vole as a positive as giving in. I think what you
presented is a very nice looking building. Beauty is in the eye of
the beholder. We each have to vole our conscious, and it's
easy for this body or any other body to spend your money, but
I'm mindful of the business in which you are in. I'm hard
pressed from a purely visual standpoint, not architectural or
anything else, to say that building is any better or worse than
Home Depot or the Wal-Mart that was built or any other
building. I look at your application on its own. I think you're
making a significant investment in the city for essentially what is
a hardware store with related items. I do think it is attractive. I
do appreciate the fad that you did listen to the concerns. I have
no argument with my colleagues. I just take it differently. I look
forward to having you invest in the city, and I will be voting in
favor of this. When the secretary is ready, please call the roll.
A roll call vole on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES: Smiley, Morrow, Vartoogian, Walsh
NAYES: LaPine, McDermott, Wilshaw
ABSTAIN: None
ABSENT: None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution
adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving
resolution.
ITEM#7 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 954' Public Hearings and
Regular Meeting
Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the
Minutes of the 954'r Regular Meeting held by the City Planning
Commission on November 13, 2007.
On a motion by Wilshaw, seconded by Vartoogian, and unanimously adopted, 9
was
December 11, 2007
24521
#12-138-2007 RESOLVED, that the Minutes of the 954TH Regular Meeting
held by the City Planning Commission on November 13, 2007,
are hereby approved.
A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following:
AYES:
Wilshaw, Varloogian, La Pine, McDermott, Morrow,
Smiley, Walsh
NAYS:
None
ABSENT:
None
ABSTAIN:
None
Mr. Walsh, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolu0on
adopted.
On a moton duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 955" Public
Hearings and Regular Meeting held on December 11, 2007, was adjourned at
10:28 p.m.
ATTEST:
John Walsh, Chairman
CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
Carol A. Smiley, Secretary