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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPLANNING MINUTES 2019-12-10MINUTES OF THE 1,152nd PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, December 10, 2019, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,152" d Public Hearings and Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hail, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan. Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Members present: David Bongero Sam Caramagno Glen Long Betsy McCue Carol Smiley Peter Ventura Ian Wilshaw Members absent: None Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. ITEM #1 PETITION 2019-11-08-15 242 Community Church Mr. Caramagno, Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2019- 11-08-15 submitted by Hobbs + Black Architects, on behalf of 242 Community Church, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, in connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior front fagade of the church located at 35475 Five Mile Road, located on the south side of Five Mile Road between Yale Avenue and Levan Road in the Northeast % of Section 20. December 13, 2019 29462 Mr. Taormina: This is a request to renovate the exterior of an existing church building that is located on Five Mile Road between Yale and Levan. This is the 242 church. This property is zoned R-2 (One - family Residential). The changes to the building would only affect the north elevation, which is the side of the building that faces Five Mile Road. This is a photograph showing what the church looks like today. You will see that it contains mainly brick as well as stone on either side of the brick and a glass curtain wall. The next rendering shows what the changes would look like. They mostly involve adding new materials and colors to transform the appearance of the facade, to be consistent with the church's other locations throughout the metropolitan area. These new materials would include corrugated metal siding, reclaimed wood, and E.i.F.S., which is a Drivet material. The tallest and most prominent feature on the facade would be a rectangular shaped wall that consists of corrugated metal that would be painted red. You can see that on the west side of the glass curtain wall that contains the sign. This feature is about 25 feet in height overall, and it would be installed in front of the glass on the west side of the facade. Immediately adjacent is a shorter section of wall that would be about 20 feet in height. This would be made of the E.I.F.S. material and Dave a Farris finish in order to give it a rusted metal or oxidized steel appearance. There is a third detail about nine feet in height thatwould form a rectangular archway over the entrance on the north side of the building. This also consists of corrugated metal. As you can see from the rendering, it is painted with a blue finish. The existing brick on the east side of the glass would be covered with reclaimed wood siding. Lastly, the rendering shows the stone walls that are located on either side of the entrance would be painted white. There are no other changes proposed to the structure or site. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated November 13, 2019, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed project at this time. The existing parcel is assigned the address of #35475 Five Mile Road. The existing parcel is currently serviced by public water main, sanitary sewer and storm sewer. The information submitted does not show proposed alterations for the utility services, so it does not appear that there will be any impacts to the existing systems. it should be noted that should the developer need to do any work within the Five Mile Road December 13, 2019 29463 right-of-way, permits will need to be obtained from the Wayne County Department of Public Services." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated November 19, 2019, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with a request to renovate the exterior front facade of the church on property located at the above referenced address. The Livonia Fire Department, Fire Prevention Division has no objections to the project illustrated in petition 2019-11-08-15, 242 Community Church. Note: The Livonia Fire Department, Fire Prevention Division agrees with the extension of fire sprinkler protection into the areas highlighted on plan sheet numberA-050. This AHJ requires that all fire sprinkler applications have 24-hour fire alarm monitoring capable of calling emergency dispatch in the event of a system activation (water flow). Code Reference: 13.3.4.1.1 (NFPA 101, 2015) Assembly occupancies with occupant loads of more than 300 and all theaters with more than one audience -viewing room shall be provided with an approved fire alarm system in accordance with 9.6,1.3 (NFPA 101, 2015) Code Reference 9.6.1.3 (NFPA 101, 2015) Fire alarm systems required by this Code shall be installed, tested, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code, and NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code." The letter is signed by Greg Thomas, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated November 26, 2019, which reads as follows: I have reviewed the plans in connection with the petition. I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski„ Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated November 27, 2019, which reads as follows: "Pursuant to your request, the above -referenced petition has been reviewed. This Department has no further objections to this petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated November 13, 2019, which reads as follows: "1 have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated November 14, 2019, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence. December 13, 2019 29464 Mr. Wilshaw: Are there any questions of the Planning Director? Ms. Smiley: Do churches pay taxes? Mr. Taormina: In this case, no. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for our planning staff? With no questions we will go to the petitioner who is here. We will need your name and address for the record please. Eric Rauch, Executive Pastor, 242 Community Church, 7526 Grand River, Brighton, MI, 48114, I thank you Mr. Taormina for your thorough overview, appreciate that. I thought it would be helpful for you guys to get a little bit of an overview of a bit of the history of what has been Memorial Christian Church for the last 77 years, and then turning into 242 Community Church. Maybe some understanding of that would be helpful for you guys. Memorial Christian Church started in 1945. They have been in Livonia and have a rich history here for 77 years. They have done an incredible job of ministering in this community and have been part of the great church for a very long time. In August 2018, they changed their name to Compass Christian Church in part in an effort to reach a younger audience. Their congregation was getting a bit older and they were trying some things to help reach a bit younger crowd. That happened just about a year ago. A little bit more than a year ago. Fast forward then a few months after that in February 2019. What they started experiencing was a transition of their lead pastor. At that point, the elders had a couple decisions to make. They could simply seek and find a new lead pastor, which is the most common route for churches in that style transition. They could also do a less common route, and that is to be adopted by another church that is potentially reaching a younger crowd and breathe new life into a church that has a rich history. Our church, 242, has been around since 2005. In fact, one of the churches that helped us start was Memorial Christian Church. They gave us $50,000 in 2005, which we are very grateful for. We launched our location that year in Brighton, Michigan. In Brighton we were able to grow as a portable church and we were able to launch a second location in Ann Arbor in 2009. In 2012 we took an old indoor tennis facility in the Brighton area that was vacant for the better part of seven years and turned it into a community center. That now sits at about 140,000 square feet. It serves the community seven days a week. That church has grown pretty significantly. In fact, that church specifically was one of the fastest growing churches in the country for the last seven years. We also adopted the Ann Arbor location, built a December 13, 2019 29465 community center there that just opened two years ago now, and it too has grown to be the largest church in the City of Ann Arbor. Those are kind of the things you can read about when you do a Google search. I think one of the interesting things about 242 is that we don't just have large church locations. We also have smaller church locations in communities such as Saginaw, where we have a congregation of about 150 people. In communities like Monroe where we have a congregation of about 130 people. In Lansing, we adopted a church there four years ago and that church sits about 1,100 people. In Taylor recently where we have a church congregation around 800 people. I share that because think it's important to note that although we are one church, seven locations, we also have the full breath of kind of size at each of these locations. It isn't our interest to just become a big huge church necessarily in each city or in each community, we just kind of naturally let happen what happens in those cities. If we are able to have a church that is thousands of people in a city and that is what we are called to be in that city, then we will follow that calling. However, in some communities that is not the case and we are completely comfortable being a smaller church and ministering in our capacity that we are called in that community. Here in Livonia, we adopted Compass Christian Church in June. What that means is that the congregation voted to have 242 to now oversee Compass Christian Church. Eventually it will change its name to 242 and to help be a part of establishing a culture and establishing a facility that can help reach the younger generation. So, that is what we are in the process of doing. Part of that is our request tonight to help update the front facade so it can speak to a bit of a younger audience than what that church has a history of. So tonight, obviously the change to the facade, as you see the difference and juxtaposition between the old design and the new design is a part of that effort. We aren't proposing any additions at this time. We aren't proposing any changes to the parking lot at this time. In fact, our early indications, as we look at this site, is that if this church were to expand and pass 700 or 800 people, quite frankly this probably wouldn't be the site for that. As we took a look at the studies for it, the seating capacity sits around 400 people. We would run multiple services, but maybe if there were three services, as an example, we just don't see this specific location growing much past 800 people or accommodating more than that. At which point we would look for other options in the City of Livonia. Our history has been of one of taking old buildings that used to have a story and remodeling them. Taking an old box store, for example or old tennis courts, and revitalizing them into something new. For tonight's efforts what we are looking to do is simply imagine the whole front of the facade so that it fits more in line December 13, 2019 29466 with our identity and helps us contain to speak to that young family audience that we seem to more naturally attract. That is our request tonight. I have here John Pearn with Hobbs & Black. He is our architect and he will share a bit more of the details around the front fagade. When it comes to anything with operations or logistics or any questions about the church, I would be happy to answer those for you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you so much for your presentation. Do we have any questions for the church representative before we get into the building design? Mr. Ventura: Mr. Rauch, I appreciate the review of the church. It was very informative, thank you. Just a couple questions that I jotted down as you were speaking. Did I understand that you used the phrase affordable church? Mr. Rauch: No, I did not. Mr. Wilshaw: Portable. Mr. Rauch: Yeah. A portable church is where you set up church every week in an auditorium like this. That is our roots. Mr. Ventura: Thank you. In your 140,000 square foot community center in Brighton, what kind of activities go on there and would they be the same kind of activities that you would anticipate having here? Mr. Rauch: No. They would not be the same at all. This would be more of a weekend centered facility. So, it would be a place that generally the large audience and the large population would meet here for Sunday services and so it's peak hours or peak uses are absolutely that. We would anticipate a few things being able to happen there. Currently there has been a Co-op preschool that is part of this facility. We would like to continue to operate that as they have been doing. We would also like to have a couple rooms set aside for instruction for guitar and art. So, whether it is guitar or art classes or things like that, we like the idea of a school for the arts. We have found in our research that might be a need in this city and in this community, providing a place where the art community can come together. We have some smaller rooms to do that. That is kind of an intriguing idea to us. There is also a basketball court or a small basketball court inside. It isn't used very often, but we might be able to open that up I suppose to the public at large. This is not a community center. This would be branded as 242 Community Church. It would largely be presented for congregational use on the weekends and it would December 13, 2019 29467 not be a community center that has a seven day a week function and feature. Our Brighton one, when you asked that question about what we have there, we have a cafe there, an indoor soccer field, basketball courts, school for the arts there, but that is a whole other scope and we don't even brand them the same. That is called the 242 Community Center. That is a completely different like activity base and activity function then what we are looking to do here which would be 242 Community Church. Quite frankly, I am not even sure that this specific address is appropriate for that. It is surrounded by residential and it isn't in a commercial district. We are called to be good neighbors. My indication here is that this wouldn't be an appropriate site for the style of activities that a community center would have at it. Mr. Ventura: I agree with you very much. You touched on another area of concern that we have. That is, this is embedded in a very traditional community location. The rectilinear design of the church and the bright colors are not consonant with the surrounding residences. We have some concerns over that. Your architect was at our study meeting last week and we expressed our concerns and those regards, and I don't know whether you have come tonight with some alternatives or some visions or what you would say about that. That was a large concern of ours that was expressed during the study session. Mr. Rauch: Yeah, I did hear that. We certainly want to foster that conversation here tonight. We haven't presented anything significantly different here from what was shown to you guys last week. I would say this. The materials are, with the exception of the red and the blue, are soft materials. You have the barnwood scape. You have the rusticated metal and things like that. They very much come off in soft tones even though they are hardscape facades. They are very much softening in nature. Our experience has been that we really like this combination of both the soft tones that we get from the natural materials along with the some of the other bolder looks on there too. Those two things are important to our identifiers as a church. Frankly, we like redeeming materials. Our whole goal, quite frankly, is to show the grace redemption story of all time every single weekend and we feel there is a subtle tie-in into taking materials that had a different story at one time and reusing them and having a new purpose to them. That is part of our thought process architecturally. Part of the process we went through years ago when we were thinking about our identity as a church is what are ways we can take some of those things that are our core values as a church, and even thinking through the materials and things, what are some ways that we can implement that into those. Part December 13, 2019 29468 of what you see up here is a part of that thought process of taking reclaimed materials, things that had a different story at one time, and redeeming them for a new story. Whether it is the barnwood or rusticated metal panels, a lot of glass of course, and that glass is there today. Those are things that help not just identify who we are but also start to hit at the core of what we do. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for Mr. Rauch? If not, we will give your architect the chance to talk about the materials. Good evening, Mr. Pearn. Jonathan Pearn, Hobbs & Black Architects, 100 N. State Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48104, it is nice to see you again. To touch base on the materials, I think we touched on almost all of them without necessarily going through the list of them. Again, we have a corrugated metal panel on the siding. You can see on the Ann Arbor facade up front that is illustrated on the TV right now, there is a blue. It is kind of a picture frame box that is kind of a branding element for them to get a height from the street scape. I think you can see that we are trying to do that with the big 242 sign up above, but that is on a red rusticated metal wall. Again, we are bringing that same material in. It is on all three campuses that we have done. There is the barnwood shown on the Brighton campus. It is a nice soft material that we are going to clad to the existing brick. It is clad right on to the brick. It's on furring. It is a pretty easy install. It gives a nice home warm feel to it. On top of that, there is the Lansing campus where we have used that rusticated metal. It is a reclaimed material. It has that kind of feel. There is some of that blue corrugated metal to the side. Again, all we are trying to do is really address that front fagade and get a new up and coming family type clientele into the front so when you are driving by and you see something new and existing, it kind of brings people in. We are not anticipating doing anything around the corners or doing anything to the parking. Right now, it is just a facade change. We are including a bench at the front of that curtain wall. All that curtain wall is still remaining. We are just building in front of it so it may have small footing extension there, but we are talking about cold form metal framing with some sheathing and then the cladding on top of it. Nothing really intensive to the facade. Nothing that is going to be punching that current rain system or anything like that. The existing eaves are going to remain. The existing roofline is going to remain. We are not putting any additional square footage on the building or RTU's on top behind. Nothing like that. Everything else is going to remain for the most part. Aside from maybe painting the existing stone, that is about it. That is the total of the project. December 13, 2019 29469 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Pearn. I think we have a number of questions for you. Ms. McCue: I guess we will just pick up right there. With the painting of the stone ... we discussed last week that some of us weren't necessarily in favor of that. Did you discuss that at all? Mr. Pearn: I understand. We spoke with 242 representatives. We really haven't come to a conclusion. Of whether or not that was....we show that we are painting it, but if you look at it you will see it is more like a whitewash. They may be more in tune with what people are looking for. I don't think that was really something we are going to hang our hat on and say that that is something we have to have. I am not going to speak for you but... if that is something that holding up the process then it could be something that we could sacrifice. They are excited to be here and to make the formal changes to the facade instead of some of the nit -picky items. Ms. McCue: Is there a logic... I am just a little confused because we are talking about reusing a lot of materials and then to put paint on that is just, to me, a little counterintuitive. Maybe I am just missing the message. Mr. Pearn: 1 think it is reusing something by giving it new life. Some people go by and see that existing stone and it's beautiful It is not unlike the material we use now. We use natural stone all the time on projects. It's just giving it new life, a different life, I guess. Ms. Smiley: I am on that same boat. I don't know how whitewashing stone gives it new life and does the blue mean something? Mr. Pearn: The blue...what we have done in the past is that we have used an existing shipping container. That is where we get the proportions come from. It is approximately the same size and they have these shipping containers inside of buildings to have maybe the free coffee, things like that. It is a very welcoming thing. It is an actual shipping container. This is kind of an abstraction of that idea, that philosophy. We are creating an entrance out of it. In the Brighton facility there is a couple on the exterior that is kind of a family entrance. It forms a slide. It goes down two stories. It is a fun thing. We are kind of tying into that. Does that answer your question? Ms. Smiley: That's an answer. I am still lost on the blue. It's because it is a shipping container and you... December 13, 2019 29470 Mr. Pearn: The blue is a very primary color. I don't know if that is an actual representation of the actual blue. Metal panel comes in a thousand colors. Ms. Smiley: These are actual shipping containers that you put toward the entrance way? Mr. Pearn: This is not. We have used them in the past. This is a corrugated metal to give that appearance. Ms. Smiley: Well, I am still seeing this in a neighborhood ... the whitewashing and the red and the blue, I mean ... your name...I know you want to be something new and different and 242 after the Acts... that's a whole name because traditionally you will find a church that is St. Mark's, St. Michael's, saint something, but your numbers and you would have to check it out to find out that it is from the Acts. I am trying to get this to fit in the neighborhood and soft tones. I am not seeing that going in the neighborhood and I am not seeing soft tones. Natural whitewashed stone doesn't look natural to me and I don't see that it gives it new life, but I am not an architect either so... Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. Any other questions? Mr. Bongero: Just a couple questions. Just the framing aspect... none of the glass changes? Mr. Pearn: No. Some of the glass behind we might replace with an insulated panel. There is no reason to keep the actual glass panes in the back so we may re -glaze something into the existing curtain wall. The existing curtain wall we see foresee being exactly intact. Now, the glass panels themselves may be removed and put in storage and replace if we ever take down those metal panels. Mr. Bongero: Ok, there are some brick vertical pillars... Mr. Pearn: There are. You can see that we are ... the one on the left is a white...we are just cladding it. Mr. Bongero: You're just cladding over the brick? Mr. Pearn: Those will be remaining . We aren't taking them down. Mr. Bongero: What happens with the brick planters? Mr. Pearn: The brick planters will be removed. December 13, 2019 29471 Mr. Bongero: You are taking those out. Mr. Pearn: They are actually a leaking hazard. Mr. Bongero: The steeple comes down? Mr. Pearn: The steeple does come down, yes. Mr. Bongero: No concrete work is being done. You are salvaging existing concrete? Mr. Pearn: No. The existing sidewalks and the existing driveway, nothing will be done. Depending on what we do when we excavate, there is probably significant overpour there for the existing footings, just judging by what we have seen in prior church experiences that were built around this time. We hope to just reuse that. But that is about it. No flatwork. Mr. Bongero: These panels. They are going to just butt up to the face of the building. Mr. Pearn: If we have to extend a little footing and that is it, we will sit them on cold metal form framing that goes full height. We are talking like six-inch studs, so it won't stick out too much. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions for the architect? Mr. Ventura: Just a point of clarification. You described the blue on the front that comes from shipping containers as being an entrance. Mr. Pearn: Right. Mr. Ventura: Is that going to be an entrance? Are people really going to enter the church there? Mr. Pearn: You know, it's funny because we do all this front fagade work but 1 would say that majority of people...there is a half-moon drop off here...I would say 80 -- 90% of people will still come in through the side entrance, which is to the left around that corner. That is where are the parking is. Most people aren't going to come in through this entrance. It is more of a visual thing. Mr. Ventura: And you are not doing anything at the actual... Mr. Pearn: We are not. December 13, 2019 29472 Mr. Ventura: So, when you say this is a more visual thing, you are really advertising, in effect, with your architecture change and the purpose of the church, identity of the church, is really the bottom line? Mr. Pearn: Correct. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions for the architect? I think we have our questions answered at this point, we will see if there is anyone in the audience wishing to speak for or against this item, I don't see anybody jumping forward. Is there any other comments from the commission at this time? If not, I always like to give the petitioner the last word. Is there anything else, Mr. Rauch, that you would like to add from what you have heard? Mr. Rauch: I hear and understand the comments about the design and the colors and its proximity to neighbors and I can greatly appreciate that. I just want to let you know that it is certainly our intention to be a great neighbor here. To be an incredible neighbor, quite frankly. You know, architecturally speaking, I know everyone's tastes are a bit different. We like this taste, quite frankly. We won a State of Michigan award for our architecture in 2012. We won a national award for architecture in 2013 for a new church, so nationally we are recognized as the best new church facility and we have been featured in magazines and things so I know that tastes are different but for us it does speak a bit to who we see as our core audience and that is young families. Early on we did a pretty significant study to find out what it is our audience likes to see. What is it that speaks to them? So, we were able to recognize our core audience as a 30 -- 35-year old's. One of the things that speak to them so that there is clear messaging because what is interesting about what we do is our external feel and look needs to align with who we are and how we share the message inside. It is all communication from A-Z. So, what the architecture looks like also has to align with how we speak in social media. How we speak from the pulpit. The music we choose to play. All communication styles. The reason that it needs to align and match is because what we do as a church ... the number one reason people don't go to church is because it is hypocritical. In part they believe that because they see many churches try to speak out of both sides of their mouth. They say they are young and hip and whatever but they have an organ. They say they care about the poor but they really don't do anything about the poor. Right? So, generationally speaking we are now probably two generations into a post Christian world. The number one reason why many people don't go to church is because they believe the church is hypocritical. So, for us, it is December 13, 2019 29473 important to align our external identity with who we truly feel called to reach in the community. It creates a conversation and a communication piece that is consistent from A-Z. If we create an identity on the exterior that doesn't align with who we are, those things get perceived as misalignment and they get perceived as not authentic. In this day and age, people authenticity radar are through the roof. Ten years ago we were surrounded by about 300 commercial images a day and today that number is over 3000. People sniff out inauthenticity like that. It is important for us to communicate consistently in all the ways we communicate, including architecturally. Part of the branding, part of the strategy is to make sure that we are very clear and very focused and very intentional in the ways that we communicate and even consider architecture, which frankly is one of our most expensive communication tools and we are considering that in the way that we communicate. So, I wanted to share that with you guys. In our original Brighton building, our first permanent facility, we spent a lot of time and energy, the better part of six months, really discerning through what we felt like would be the pattern of architecture for us moving forward and identifying who we are as a church, which means we had to really identify who we are not either. So, when you look at this branding, if you will, I think you eluded to it, there is certainly a look and feel to it and it is intentional and it does not match identical to each location but there are elements that touch into each location. Each one is unique and different. It is a part of us, making sure we have a consistent communication style across all the ways we communicate in our cities. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other comments from any commissioners? Mr. Long: Is it Pastor Rauch? Mr. Rauch: I go by Eric. Mr. Long: We will be more formal than that. So, we have a few options here. We can approve, we can deny, or we can table. If we approve, it goes on to City Council with an approving resolution and if we deny, you can appeal to City Council. If we table we can sit and go back and forth over this. I know that some of my fellow commissioners, obviously, have certain problems with some of the architecture and some of the colors, but it also sounds like your kind of firm on this is who we are. I am not much of one for wasting time. We will make our decision based on whatever the commission wants to decide, but do you feel like you have any negotiating room on your color scheme or... December 13, 2019 29474 Mr. Rauch: Everything is a conversation. That is how I perceive tonight to be quite frankly. I appreciate that. Totally understand, and I say that as the vice -chair of my local Planning Commission, so I totally understand your guys needs and desires here. I wanted to state our case, but this is absolutely an open conversation to have tonight. Mr. Long: I just wanted to find that out because again, what is not...I don't want to waste time if you guys are set on this and then we can move it over and if the commission denied it then obviously you have the right to appeal, but... Mr. Rauch: I would seek to go to City Council only with the approval of this body. I don't think it is wise to go to City Council without the support of this body. Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Taormina: Mr. Chairman? Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Taormina. Mr. Taormina: With that, a consideration to table, we would be happy to work with the applicant on revising the plans. I am wondering any advice we could obtain this evening relative to the design. The shapes and the geometry, if you will, of what is presented vs the colors. I know Commissioner Long indicated the colors and the paint on the stone is obviously a concern. I am thinking that the red, as it is presented on the material sample board, might be a more commercial expression on this building, which is at odds a little bit with the residential character of the neighborhood. I am wondering if looking at that particular red on the building would be something we can look at. It was indicated at the study session that it really didn't reflect, at least the rendering, as well as some of the photographs with the sample that was provided. If there is some flexibility there on the actual red color, without actually compromising the design. The red seems to carry over, not only on that tali feature, but also on the eaves along the building. Correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Rauch or the architect. Again, some possible direction here if we are going to table this. Mr. Rauch: I think you mentioned a couple good things. First off, the whitewash on the stone. That is an agreeable thing for us of course. We would be happy to leave that stone as is or maybe just selectively... there are a few stones there, if 1 am not mistaken, that just kind of like stick out a bit darker than other ones. Not so much the who facade of that but like a few of those December 13, 2019 29475 stones that just seem out of place. It would be nice to kind of mute them a bit. I hear what you are saying about the eaves. I think that is an easy one too. A darker eave color. A dark grey or pewter even would be a nice addressing of that. I wonder if a deeper red ... we aren't tied into a specific red per se. We aren't some corporate fast food restaurant with our pantones for that color, if you will. I wonder if a deeper red would have a more residential feel. I think we can take a look at that blue too, which stands out quite a bit. With staff, take a look at some renderings for colors and give some options out and come back with thoughts on that. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Rauch. I think this is an opportunity, given the discussion where this is probably headed, this would be a good opportunity for the commissioners who do want to offer any suggestions to our planning staff as far as things to look toward. This would be a good opportunity to do that now, so now at least going into the next few weeks, you would have an opportunity to have that discussion and focus on those elements. If there is any comment from the commission regarding that, that would be appropriate. Ms. McCue? Ms. McCue: I think I mentioned this last week, but to me that color in that render is not the same color you have on that board. It is more of a burgundy to me or a softer red, which to me would be much more appealing. I think it is the primary color thing... it is just so bold, if we could soften that up a bit. Mr. Rauch: That makes sense. We can do that. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other comments? Mr. Bongero: I agree with Ms. McCue about that red right there just looks different than the other photos and the blue just kind of hits you, you know what I mean? That is just my opinion. I don't really have any problems with the other colors as much as the blue. It is just kind of on there, you know what I mean? That is my opinion. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other comments from the Commission? Mr. Caramagno: I agree. The blue troubles me more than the red. The tone of red is negotiable I guess. The blue troubles me as well as the stone being painted. I also thought that maybe there is room for some more of that barnwood. That barnwood is attractive. It does look good. Maybe there is some room for some more December 13, 2019 29476 barnwood in front of that stone, in place of some of that stone. That is my opinion. Mr. Wilshaw: Good comment. Ms. Smiley? Ms. Smiley: I would agree with Mr. Bongero and Mr. Caramagno about the blue. When we had a preschool and stuff like that, some of the things they brought were primary colors to attract the children and we were not to positive...this is right in a neighborhood across from the... more neighborhoods. I am not a fan of the blue at all. If it is a message, I am not getting it. Mr. Wilshaw: Some of us are always children, Ms. Smiley. Any other comments? Mr. Ventura: I completely agree with all of my commissioners here. One of the words you used, Mr. Rauch, is soft colors. Obviously, we do not perceive these as being soft colors. I have a great deal of respect for Hobbs & Black and in my job I have interfaced with them many times and they are a very capable architectural firm. I am sure with your guidance, and I understand the statement you are trying to make here and the differentiation you are trying to express, both philosophically and change of orientation standpoint, but to truly do something that reflected soft I think would require a change in the colors to something far more muted than those appear to be to us. As far as rectilinear shapes go, I can probably live with them but Hobbs & Black is a very creative group and I am sure they can come up with something that fulfills your wishes to look different to express your new identity and is a little more harmonious with the surrounding neighborhoods. Thank you. Mr. Rauch: Would you mind if 1 spoke to that for moment? Mr. Wilshaw: You are welcome to. Mr. Rauch: Thank you. I would prefer to keep what we see up here for the design of the shape. We have gone through about nine to ten iterations of this and one of our components is that...why we land on this is we like from a geographic standpoint, like the geometry of this, but also affordability wise these are appendages onto existing things that don't require new foundations and such. That is one of the things that let us to this as well. It keeps intact the structural components that are there, and quite frankly it makes it much more affordable for us. I would prefer to keep the geometry like we are showing tonight, and I am hearing a lot of response about the blue. I think that is a color that we can absolutely come in and change and even provide some options too so that we December 13, 2019 29477 have several options to that. I think the red can be much deeper and more residential feeling. I think that would be a good contrast there too. Soft tone wise I wasn't really referring to the colors, more so the materials of the barnwood and even the rusticated metal. 1 agree with what you guys are saying. I think we can mute those a bit more and mute the red a lot more. Update the color of the blue and not make it as out there and help make it more harmonious in the community and in the neighborhood that is adjacent to it. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. I try to not give too many of my own comments as Chairman, but I will say that I appreciate you working with us and I think we will be able to work together going forward to hopefully come up with a good solution for your facility and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to work with us and to seek that approval. If anything, the only comment I would say and it might be a little bit different from what you have heard tonight is I almost wish that and I know it is a financial thing for you, but some of those elements would come around to the main entrance on the side to tie it together to keep that look you are going for consistent. Mr. Rauch: We hope the future is bright for us here in this community. We love this city. It has such a great history and we are new to it as a church but boy we would love 30 — 40 years from now think back on this and hope we can be a big part of doing positive things in this city. That is our goal. That is our hope. We certainly want to always be on the right foot with you guys. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Rauch. With that I will close the discussion and look for a motion. On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #12-95-2019 RESOLVED, that the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2019-11-08-15 submitted by Hobbs + Black Architects, on behalf of 242 Community Church, requesting approval of all plans required by Section 18.58 of the City of Livonia Zoning Ordinance #543, as amended, in connection with a proposal to renovate the exterior front fagade of the church located at 35475 Five Mile Road, located on the south side of Five Mile Road between Yale Avenue and Levan Road in the Northeast 1/4 of Section 20, the Planning Commission does hereby table this item to the meeting of January 14, 2020. December 13, 2019 29478 Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #6 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,151st Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Mr., Caramagno, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,151st Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on November 19, 2019. On a motion by Long, seconded by McCue , and unanimously adopted, it was #12-96-2019, RESOLVED, that the Minutes of 1,151st Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on November 19, 2019„ are hereby approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Long, McCue, Smiley, Ventura, Bongero, Caramagno, Wilshaw NAYS: None ABSENT: None ABSTAIN.- None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Chairman Wilshaw thanked the planning staff, commission and television staff for all the help over the last year On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,152nd Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on December 10, 20,19, was adjourned at 7:52 P.m. NXML0Mri4 'M 11 0 ii 49am taramagno, ATTEST: Ian WilshawX - hairmian rotary