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Home My WebLink About1,177 - October 19, 2021 signedMINUTES OF THE 1,177th PUBLIC HEARINGS AND REGULAR MEETING HELD BY THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF LIVONIA On Tuesday, October 19, 2021, the City Planning Commission of the City of Livonia held its 1,1771h Public Hearing and Regular Meeting in the Livonia City Hall, 33000 Civic Center Drive, Livonia, Michigan, Mr. Ian Wilshaw, Chairman, called the meeting to order at 7 p.m. Members present: David Bongero Glen Long Carol Smiley Peter Ventura Ian Wilshaw Members absent: Betsy McCue, Sam Caramagno Mr. Mark Taormina, Planning Director, and Stephanie Reece, Program Supervisor, were also present. Chairman Wilshaw informed the audience that if a petition on tonight's agenda involves a rezoning request, this Commission makes a recommendation to the City Council who, in turn, will hold its own public hearing and make the final determination as to whether a petition is approved or denied. The Planning Commission holds the only public hearing on a request for preliminary plat and/or vacating petition. The Commission's recommendation is forwarded to the City Council for the final determination as to whether a plat is accepted or rejected. If a petition requesting a waiver of use or site plan approval is denied tonight, the petitioner has ten days in which to appeal the decision, in writing, to the City Council. Resolutions adopted by the City Planning Commission become effective seven (7) days after the date of adoption. The Planning Commission and the professional staff have reviewed each of these petitions upon their filing. The staff has furnished the Commission with both approving and denying resolutions, which the Commission may, or may not, use depending on the outcome of the proceedings tonight. Mr. Wilshaw: Some of you folks have been here before, and I just want to reiterate, the way we are going to proceed with the meeting is that we will start by reading each of the items that are on our agenda. Our planning staff will give background information on the item. We will then ask that the petitioner come forward and speak to the item, answer any questions we may have, and then we will have an opportunity to go to the audience and ask for anyone in the audience to speak for or against the item to also come forward. We will prompt you along the way so you know how things are going and then at the end of each item, we will close the comment period and make our decision. October 19, 2021 30201 ITEM #1 PETITION 2020-08-01-06 Middlebelt Plymouth Venture Ms, Smiley, Acting Secretary, announced the first item on the agenda, Petition 2020-08-01-06 submitted by Middle Belt Plymouth Venture, L.L.C, pursuant to Section 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, requesting to rezone parts of the properties at 29707 & 30273 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middle Belt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast Y< of Section 35, from C-2 (General Business) to NM2 (Neighborhood Multifamily). Mr. Taormina: This is a request to rezone property that is part of the Wonderland Village Shopping Center at the southwest corner of Middle Belt and Plymouth Roads. The land area measures roughly 10,86 acres and is located between the Wal-Mart Supercenter and LA Fitness. The change would be from C-2 (General Business) to NM2 (Neighborhood Multifamily). Bordering the property to the south are single-family homes that are a part of the Bel -Aire Gardens Subdivision. The purpose of the rezoning is to facilitate the future development of the site with an apartment complex that would be called Wonderland Flats. NM2 zoning allows for multiple dwellings in buildings not to exceed a height of four - stories. The preliminary site plan shows two three-story apartment buildings. The site layout includes a central courtyard and common area that would contain an inground swimming pool, as well as other amenities. Building A, which is to the north, and Building B to the south, would each have a gross floor area of approximately 101,000 square feet. Together, the two buildings would contain a total of 201 one and two -bedroom units. Access would be from two driveways, which are along an existing drive aisle located on the north side of the development that runs in an east/west direction across Wonderland Village, ultimately connecting to Middle Belt Road. Between these two driveways is one of the main signalized entrances to Wonderland from Plymouth Road. Parking would be provided around the perimeter of both buildings. The plan shows a total of 422 spaces, which is slightly more than the required two spaces per unit. Carports would be provided for approximately 100 vehicles, mostly along the east and south sides of the complex. At the south end of the property the site contains an existing screen wall and landscape berm that separates the proposed development from the adjacent single-family homes. The width of the berm measured from the masonry wall to the base of the slope on the north side of the berm is approximately 69 feet. From this point, the distance to the closest edge of the parking lot would be 100 feet, and from the parking lot to Building B is another 131 feet. Thus, the overall October 19, 2021 30202 distance from the residential properties to Building B would be approximately 300 feet. The buildings, which span a distance of 343 feet, would have flat roofs. All units would be accessible from corridors located inside the building. Entrances are shown in the center and on the sides of the buildings. A network of interconnected sidewalks would be provided around both of the buildings, as well as within the courtyard and common areas. The Livonia Vision 21 Future Land Use Map designates the entire Wonderland complex, including the subject site, as a Mixed Development Center. Mixed Development Centers are intended to have higher densities and massing, be walkable and pedestrian friendly, and be integrated with and connected to surrounding areas and neighborhoods. Attached dwellings and apartments are identified as an appropriate land use within a Mixed Development Center, subject to a density of 20 units per acre. Residential options include attached and upper -story units including townhomes, lofts and apartments. The concept plan for the apartment complex reflects an overall density of 17.67 dwelling units per acre. With that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: I will note that this correspondence has been updated from when the original petition was submitted a little over one year ago. The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated October 1, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed rezoning at this time. The parcels are assigned the addresses of #29707 and #30273 Plymouth Road. The legal descriptions submitted by the owner for the proposed rezoning appears to be correct and should be used to describe the parcel if approved. The proposed development is currently serviced by water main, sanitary and storm sewers, which may need to be extended to service any new development. The submitted drawings do not indicate any utility connections or calculations, so we do not have any knowledge of impacts to the existing systems at this time. The existing site has a mix of public and private utilities, which may require additional easements to provide sanitary and water service to a new parcel. It should be noted that should the project move forward, the proposed construction will be required to meet the Wayne County Stormwater Ordinance, including revised detention requirements. A full review of the proposed development will be completed when plans are submitted for permitting." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated October 5, 2021, which October 19, 2021 30203 reads as follows: "I have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. The following amount is due to the City of Livonia: Unpaid water and sewer charge, $3, 725.43" The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. I will note however that on October 8, 2021, all past due charges were paid in full. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated September 28, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. Mr. Chairman, if I may just reference, and I know all of the Planning Commissioners have received copies of all this correspondence but dating back over a year ago when this matter first appeared before the Planning Commission over that period of time, we have received an estimated 40 email correspondences all in objection to the proposed rezoning. We also received a protest petition with 129 signatures. We received four letters of support as well. With that I am happy to answer any questions you may have. Mr. Wilshaw: Just so the audience listening are aware, we have received a number of pieces of correspondence, emails, letters and a petition over the course of the last several months for both this meeting and also previous meetings regarding this item. Those are all in our packets. They are all part of the record. We have been able to review those. Just for the sake of time consolidation, we can't read them all out publicly, but needless to say we do have them all and they are all in our official packet which will go on to City Council as well so they could see them. We appreciate all of those comments and letters. Are there any questions or comments from any of the commissioners for the planning staff? There is none, so in that case we can go to the petitioner. Is the petitioner here this evening? Good evening, Mr. Shostak. We will need your name and address for the record please. Jeffrey Shostak, on behalf of Middlebelt-Plymouth Ventures, L.L.C.. Before I hand it off to the technical folks to get more into the more specifics on the zoning, I just thought I would give a little background on how we got here. As most of you know, we have been doing business in this town for four generations. We are a 101 year old company and we have done all sorts of developments in Livonia, retail, office, industrial, and we really try to be thoughtful of not what we think is the highest and best use, of course that plays a role, but in what the city wants and what we think makes the most sense with the city's current zoning, states, and what the community wants and we always encourage feedback and encourage a October 19, 2021 30204 discussion. Obviously tonight was likely to be geared towards this specific zoning request, and hopefully if we can move forward to the next step of site plan approval down the way, we would love that discussion and encourage that. How we came here on this particular development, and obviously everyone knows the history and it was all big box retail with small shoppes closer to the road and then obviously we had the great recession in between. Things changed a little bit and Livonia changed their zoning laws as Mark just kind of ... zoning vision that was mentioned and really designated this as a mixed -use development and the more we saw that and thought about that, we realized that we think that this beautiful brand market rate style of apartment complex would be a great fit with the vision that is the new Livonia 2021. That was a lot of what went behind it and we are excited and looking forward to the discussion to bring more business from our end to the city. Thank you. I am going to hand it off to Tim. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Shostak. I do want to reiterate as Mr. Shostak alluded to that we are ... this meeting is looking at the zoning of the property. We are really trying to see if the change in zoning from General Business to the Neighborhood Multifamily is appropriate. We are going to try and focus our discussion on the zoning, however, a discussion about this property and its uses can't go without at least addressing the conceptual site plans that we have received so far. There may be some discussion about the details of that, but we aren't going to get into the fine details of the site plan itself tonight. We are trying to focus on the zoning. So, as folks come forward to speak, we are going to ask that you try to address comments toward the zoning and your feelings toward the zoning and if you are for or against it as we get to that point. Good evening, sir. We will ask that you start with your name and address. Tim Ponton, 607 Shelby Street, Detroit, MI. We were retained as the civil engineer, the design partner, and planning firm for this project. We have been working on it for a number of years now with a couple of interruptions, but you can see from the plan in front of you that it is located at the southwest corner of Plymouth Road and Middle Belt Road on a 10.86-acre site. The site is currently undeveloped, and it is the last vacant parcel of the Wonderland Shopping Center. The surrounding uses to the east, we have a Wal-Mart Supercenter and a Target. To the west is an LA Fitness and a Quality Inn hotel with a banquet facility. Then, along Plymouth Road we have a various number of commercial uses between fast food restaurants, dentists, chiropractors, a number of different mixed uses. You can also notice to the south and to October 19, 2021 30205 the west the residential neighborhood that is adjacent to this shopping center, we wanted to take special consideration to the neighbors when developing this site. You can see that the majority of the neighbors now are previously located directly adjacent to a Wal-Mart, a Target, some adjacent to water detention basin and then also to the Quality Inn hotel and banquet center. Go to the next slide. The request in front of you tonight is for a rezone from C-2, General Commercial, to Neighborhood Multifamily. As stated, we are not seeking site plan approval. In front of the board tonight, if we were approved by City Council, we would prepare more detailed set of drawings and then come back in front of your board for review. A little bit of history on how we were retained for this project, we were called by the developer, we researched the C-2 zoning, visited the site, and we started putting together some conceptual plans that were consistent with what existed today in terms of big box retailers. Some of the approved uses currently that we were looking at is big box retail, restaurant, daycare, catering, schools, hotels, however, when going into the Master Plan and doing some further research, we noticed we are located, as you can see in the bottom right corner of that in the little purple square, is the entire all located within the mixed development center district. So, we took a dive a little bit deeper into the mixed development. A portion of what it states is "Mixed development centers should be developed into higher density mixed use corridors of activity. The mixed development center should provide residential options that include townhomes, upper story lofts, and apartments. Mixed development centers are envisioned in four primary locations. Plymouth and Middle Belt, Farmington and Seven Mile, Middlebelt and Seven Mile, and Six and Newburgh." As we went through and researched further into that mixed development center, we ran into a portion of the Future Land Use plan that talks about missing middle housing. The missing middle housing portion of the 21 Vision talks about the Future Land Use Plan for the Livonia places importance on the creation of housing opportunities for the families of the future and downsizing options for residents of today. Much of the conversation surrounding the mismatch between current housing stock and demographic trends focuses on the need for a missing middle housing. A response to limited appeal of traditional multi -family housing types developed in decades past, missing middle housing is those types between single unit detached homes and the mid - rise apartment buildings on the density scale. So, at that point we had approached our client and the project team and started talking about a project I was recently or previously in front of your board on which was the Seven Mile and Haggerty project that we had presented to this board. We went on to discuss that with the October 19, 2021 30206 client and the project team. If you can go to the next slide. As you notice, the mall is currently all commercial, so the only way to advance and further the goals of the Master Plan is to introduce some type of residential component. What that would do is create what we consider a horizontal mixed -use development. As you have all the commercial is already laid out and established, this is the last undeveloped piece, so this is really the best opportunity to implement some type of residential development to further enhance the goals of the Master Plan. We also think that there is significant benefits to the neighbors to the south. Of the significant benefits to those neighbors is that this would create a transition zone between the high -end intensity commercial that exists today, and it would create kind of a transition of something that is lower intensity in a multi -family residential type development in which you have part of the community and residents that live in the city as your neighbors, as opposed to more big box businesses. If you also look at the plan, the proximity of the Wal-Mart and the Target and the motel, unfortunately those residents essentially have Wal-Mart loading areas and trash located directly adjacent to their homes. Target loading and trash locating directly adjacent to their homes. The proximity of the current zoning and what it allows from a rear yard setback is unfortunately at the benefit of the residents in those locations and you can also see the proximity of the hotel to the adjacent property, so this would really provide a great opportunity, as you can see from the drawing there that we have committed to a dimension approximately 300 feet currently from our proposed three-story building to the residential property line. You can also notice from that rendering the amount of green space that exists on this site as compared to the remainder of the shopping center where it is actually a decent landscaping at this site, but just the amount of green space that exists would be ... we are looking at approximately 30 — 35% on the proposed plan that we have in front of you. We do think that the benefits would be less noise, greater proximity, the building would not be visible as compared to the Wal-Mart and the Target and the motel. On the next slide, I don't know if any of this is visible for the residents... Mr. Wilshaw: It is. There are screens behind you. Ms. Smiley: There are screens all over. Or. Ponton: This is a view that we put together. It shows essentially a rendering of if we were standing in one of the residents' backyards. You can see just the top of the three-story building, which would be located 300 feet away. There is an 8 — 10-foot berm, depending on where you are standing along with the October 19, 2021 30207 proposed wall, so between the distance and the angle, you really wouldn't be able to see barely any of the proposed three-story building. In addition, there is one row of evergreens that exist along the berm today and we would be doubling that with an additional row to offset where there is empty spaces. If we go to the next slide, the existing zoning... this is one of the conceptual plans we were discussing, and we were looking at when we were first starting to do some due diligence on this vacant lot. This is what would be allowed under the current zoning, a big box retail user, and you can also see the proximity to the residential neighborhood as compared to what we are proposing, which we think will have significant benefits to the residents to the south. Currently under the zoning there is a much lower rear yard setback in the C-2 then the NM2 and there is a green space requirement of 15% overall, whereas we would be proposing somewhere closer to 30-40%. The next slide. As was stated, we are looking at a three-story apartment building comprised of two separate buildings. There would be 201 units with 400 parking spaces. There would be a courtyard in the center with different amenities located throughout the building. Also, different gathering spaces for the tenants. You can see there is some dimensions on the Wal-Mart to the right where the closest point of the Wal-Mart to the residential neighborhood is 115 feet and then there is a loading/unloading zone and trash area. They probably have deliveries coming and going at various times of the morning and evening. What we are proposing would be the 300- foot distance with about 160-170 feet of green space. A very nice buffer between the residents and the proposed development. The next slide is a rendering from the front, which is Plymouth Road. The next rendering would be from the rear, which would face the residents. One of the important things to note here is that we eliminated the balconies on the rear as a request of City Planning, so we removed that. So, there are no balcony that you can walk on. No space to walk outside to kind of hang out and face the residents. So, there are just Juliette style balconies where it is just a door that opens, but you can't necessarily walk out anywhere. In conclusion, we do think that there is a significant benefit, not only to the advancement of the Master Plan and furthering the goals of the mixed development, we also think that there is tremendous benefits to a much lower intensity user to the adjacent residents and we have committed to a significant green space between the proposed development and the neighborhood. We do think that the benefits for the proposal significantly outweigh any detriment associated with the request. We are hear to answer any questions. October 19, 2021 30208 Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ponton. As I stated before, even though you are showing us some of the renderings of the building, the details of that are going to be dealt with in the site plan process that comes after zoning. This is a conceptual plan at this point. This isn't the final product that you are proposing. You are just giving us an idea of where you are at so far, is that correct? Mr. Ponton: That is correct. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any other presentation you and your team need to make at this point, or are you ready for questions? Mr. Ponton: We are ready for questions at this point, thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Great, thank you. Are there any questions for our petitioner from any of our commissioners? Mr. Ventura: Just to be clear with Mr. Wilshaw's clarifications, so this is the direction that you are going in terms of conceptual... this is an idea, and it is pretty close to what you are going to end up with. Mr. Ponton: Yeah, it is more than an idea. It is pretty close to what we are looking to develop. Mr. Ventura: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions? Mr. Long: First things first. Can we go back to the slide that showed the setback, what it is now under the commercial use and then what it would be under this? So, you said it would be under this design you would have about a 300-foot buffer. How much is the... potentially if there were a commercial use there, what would be the setback or what would be the potential proximity to the south neighbors? Mr. Ponton: Wal-Mart, as it exists today, is located at 115 feet. The overall...the rear yard requirement technically in a C-2 zone is eight feet. Mr. Long: So, if we don't change the zoning, potentially we could have something that only has an eight -foot proximity there. Mr. Ponton: I am sure there would be a drive aisle in the rear for fire access and loading similar to the Wal-Mart, so even though the building could technically be located that close between the berm and the drive aisle for safety it would still be around 100 feet. There would October 19, 2021 30209 still be different types of activities that could take place closer to the rear property line. Mr. Long: What are your... again, understanding that it is conceptual, but what kind of rents are we thinking about here? Mr. Schostak: I don't have the specific numbers in front of me, and obviously things will change assuming that we have more discussion on this, but this is market rate which is higher end. These are rents that us real estate people and you will have to forgive us because we look at everything per square foot. This would be approaching in the neighborhood of $2.00 a square foot, so your rents are over $1,000 per unit up to $1,400 per unit and even higher in some instances. For multi -family they are on the higher end of rents. Mr. Long: You in envisioned target market...seniors, young families, what? Mr. Shostak: I think it is a combination. I think it's young maybe newly married, kind of grew up in Livonia and don't really want to buy a house as a lot of younger people don't just yet. They want a nice place that is easy to live in, great location, good amenities, near where they work, near downtown Detroit, near Ann Arbor, and all of those types of things. I think it could be older folks as well that don't want the hassles of a house and just want a brand-new apartment complex with some amenities. Probably some young families too. I think that is generally what it is likely to be. Mr. Long: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. Any other questions? Are we envisioning one and two -bedroom units or are there going to be any three - bedrooms for this? Mr. Ponton; One and two. Mr. Wilshaw: One and two, okay. Alright, any other questions from anyone? If there is no other questions from the commission, thank you, Mr. Ponton, for your presentation. I am going to go to our audience and give them an opportunity to speak for or against this petition. You are free to come forward to either of the podiums on either side. We will ask that you start with your name and address for our record and then make your comments. Good evening. Steven Weldon, 29912 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI. As far as the zoning, let's talk about the Plymouth Road Development Authority. They have long recognized since 1995 1 believe that this whole section down Plymouth Road is a commercial geared up development. They October 19, 2021 30210 have plans designed for all that property along through there. Then the zoning for this particular property has always been commercial. It used to be an airport then it was a mall. A strip type mall. It had Montgomery Ward's and a lot of other big lot stores. So, that the vision between that section and residential area on all sides has been primarily residential in that area behind it. Overtime it has been encroaching slowly but surely into other things, but that hard primary lot has been commercial. Now we are talking about having more development in that area with Chick-Fil-A and other units coming in, which represents a lot of traffic through there. That Plymouth Road area wasn't developed to have an extra three lanes on each side, so has this group done any kind of studies for the traffic looking at what this along with this. Then we are also talking about the infrastructure aspects. We are looking at the electrical. That's not a big deal per se, especially when you are talking about commercial. When you look at Target, Wal-Mart, and the activities that go on there, their infrastructure is not geared towards a lot of heavy usage on their water supply. They don't have people that are living in that environment, so it is kind of a transitory thing to say that I need to use the bathroom here or there, so the water demand is not as big there. It is also more of a big brick type of environment where they aren't likely to have fires erupting in that environment. They have pretty good fire suppression schemes. When you start talking about oh a hundred plus units for families, well there is going to be a lot of demand on the facilities, the water. Then there is the traffic and parking. Well, there is no easy egress right now except through the commercial section to get in and out of that area. I don't believe personally that most people are going to be looking forward to this as a benefit to have a residential type construct of three-story apartment dwellings that they can move in and out of there and then have to negotiate the traffic. If you have ever been through the Wonderland Mall area now, it gets pretty hectic. It is quite a demand. Then you have the police that get called in there a lot of times. You have those kinds of factors that this commission should look at studies to say what is the traffic going to be, how much is it going to impact that area. Well, if you tried to do something more to help that apartment complex you would have to have egress, which then opens up what was designated before of no entrance in and out from the residential area. If you are going to put apartment complex over there and you are talking over 100 units, well, what about the school children and the school buses. They need to get in and out and they are going to have to go off of Plymouth Road and Middlebelt and that is a lot of traffic trying to get in and out of there. I would like to see studies, actual studies, showing that kind of projection of what the traffic is going to be with Chick-Fil-A, which we all October 19, 2021 30211 know is very popular. It is going to demand a lot of traffic. We can't even get out of that residential street on Orangelawn now as it is. If you had to open up the egress to their which we are very much opposed to anybody opening that up. We already had enough traffic over there before. If you open that up to over... he said 400 parking lots, and you get a lot of kids ... what they like to do is when they go and rent an apartment, they share the apartment to make it cheaper for them. So, you can get three, four, five people in an apartment. I know this from personal experience. So, you are going to get more than the vehicles that are projected to be there for each unit. These are things that the Planning Commission should be behind looking at. This is a zoning area of commercial and now they are going to try and add in some apartment complexes where it is going to be back by the residential and then as ... is there a demand for apartment complexes? We have the Holiday Inn, we got a lot of... if you look at the map, there is a lot of areas around here that actually provide rental units, not only on a weekly basis or monthly basis. They depend on some of that income as well that you are going to be trying to take away. So, you are trying to fit in 100 plus family units in a small area even thought that is 10 acres for that section there which is right in the middle of that commercial area. Why is that? Is that a really good thing that our city needs? No. They could put this somewhere else where there is a nice open lot for actual residential areas. We already have some apartment complexes as part of that development. You didn't have to rezone it. You are trying to ad -fit something under this Plymouth Venture 21, which was by the way passed under emergency procedures. Why was that needed? Why isn't this brought up for the whole public to decide on? There is no emergency needed for this Livonia Plymouth Venture 21. It is designed to say that we wanting to introduce new families so more families come to Livonia. We are going to have bike trails, walking trails. How are you going to fit that into this area? If you try to use a bike trail or walking trail you are going to get hit by traffic in and out of that commercial area. It is ridiculous. So, I would expect this commission to be looking at those kinds of factors to say why are we doing an ad -hoc for the benefit of those three areas that he was mentioning. This whole Livonia Plymouth 21 Venture is geared strictly for the Shostak's. He has been trying for decades to try and get something into that commercial area. This is not a residential fitting. It is only a last-ditch effort to get something in there and he is using the wrong type of development for this. So, if you rezone this you are going for one benefit of one developer versus the community of Livonia. This is our community. We don't need a commercial area of families now stuck in one area that is not going to be a good fit for them. Buses trying to get in October 19, 2021 30212 and out there. Traffic trying to get in and out of there. You are going to have the water issue. Again, if all of the sudden our flood plain gets flooded because of all of that... like I said, instead what commercial does for the water demand, you are going to have a lot of things going through that water pipe. It isn't geared for this. So, if you get that you should include in there that the Shostak's are responsible for if we have flooding in this area now. You are putting a lot of residential units in a small area that is not meant for that. You take the normal residential street, you probably got twenty units over there on one section of the street. You are going to multiply that by five in one concentrated area. The infrastructure is not meant for that. Look how long we have been there, and we haven't had an issue. So, I urge this commission to look at those things and say this is not fit for this area. Find another area or find another unit to move in there that fits the commercial zoning. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Weldon. Is there anyone else in our audience wishing to speak to this item? Anyone else wishing to speak? Please come forward. Just so the audience knows as you are addressing your comments to us, we are certainly taking these into account. Any questions that are asked or directed toward the petitioner any questions you may wish to have answered we are taking note of those, and we will give the petitioner an opportunity to come up and answer or address some of those issues after all the comments have been received. Thank you. Good evening, ma'am. Cheryl Lupu, 29864 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI. We live behind Wally World over there. I can't stress enough the amount of trucks that area continuously running and vibrating our homes. So, I can't even imagine what this would be like with 201 units vs the berm. We have people running with their dogs doing whatever so there is another use for that so-called berm. That berm isn't even up to standard from the last time they did it. There is enough noise over there now, we don't need it. The traffic is extreme problem. I call it (inaudible) at the light over on Milburn and even trying to get out on Middlebelt you cannot do it hardly because they moved that light to Target to accommodate them. It was accommodating us at one time. Greenspace, I see them using the berm. We had more problems with the berm and people up there and it is just not fit for our area. So, whatever it is you cannot convince me that this greenspace that they are proposing to everyone is not going to work. I can see it. One and two families I don't see that either. I think Seven and Farmington is a great fit. He owns that one too. Let him go over into that area. We have done enough. October 19, 2021 30213 We have given enough up in our area. Just forwhat is back there now. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Lupu. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item? I want to make sure everyone else has an opportunity to speak first, Mr. Weldon. Victoria Kowaleski. 29960 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI. Directly behind the developers proposed project. I am just going to read what I have written and put together for y'all. So, I won't be looking up and all. Mr. Wilshaw: That is fine. Ms. Kowaleski: As part of your job here surely you are all aware of how many properties has throughout our city. Each one of you can probably name at least one other property where this would be conducive for this project. Years ago, I was a secretary for a land developer. The man owned hundreds of parcels of land. He built many apartment buildings, stores, a nightclub, homes, and I can say that in the time that I worked for him he would never have considered building apartments right behind the backyard of a long-established neighborhood because that would have been outrageous. Let's define outrageous. Great exceeding what is moderate or reasonable, shocking. Our neighborhood is in shock right now. We are talking with each other, and we continue to try to understand why this Planning Commission is even considering the zoning change for a project of this type. One of my neighbors shared with other neighbors that one nigh they saw people sleeping in sleeping bags on the berm behind our homes. That is outrageous. It is a shame that I can't go out in my backyard without a body alarm. I had to take up that habit over four years ago seeing and hearing men on the berm at 2:30 a.m. when I went out behind my house to put the trash out. From then on, I have never been able to feel safe in my own backyard at night. How much worse will it be with hundreds of people back there? For the past 29 years my home has been my American dream. This developer is making it my American nightmare. They are saying three stories right now, but the caveat is the fourth story. Maybe it will be there, maybe it won't. I am thinking that it is going to be there knowing Robert, however, it will be intrusive either way. No matter how high it is. I'm sorry. Mr. Wilshaw: It's okay, Ms. Kowaleski. Ms. Kowaleski: Thank you. I already asked y'all if you would want this in your backyard and I have done a little research and I know where your October 19, 2021 30214 backyards are. That is not a threat. I am just saying that I know where you live, and you wouldn't want it in your backyard. Right? Carol? Ms. Smiley. Every homeowner in Livonia should be able to feel safe and secure and comfortable in their own backyard. Please stand up this time for our right to be safe and secure and comfortable in our backyards. The amount of space from the apartments, proposed apartment project, to my home and the promise of increased firs on top of the berm it doesn't negate the bad effect that this is going to have on our neighborhood. We have people there in the middle of the night on the berm. Think about the wintertime. All of the kids that might be living in that apartment complex. Being on up on the berm, people coming and smoking their dope on the berm, the people don't smoke in their apartments, so they go outside, where are they going to go? They aren't going to sit around the apartment complex they are going to go away from there, okay? It is coming back to us. It is coming back to our backyards. Please, I am begging you people, do not give this zoning change. This is not what you want to do. It is not what we want. We have a voice. Let our voice be heard this time. I have been in this situation since 2005. 1 have lived in my home for 29 years. I raised my children there and now I am raising my granddaughter with me five days a week. I can't let my granddaughter go out and play in my backyard because I don't know what is going to come over the wall. That's wrong. That's outrageous. I thank you for allowing me to speak and I hope you will take to heart the words I said, because we are fighting for our own privacy and comfort and safety. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Kowaleski. Appreciate your comments. Anyone else wising to speak for or against, please come forward. Jeanine Sullivan, 29944 Orangelawn, Livonia, MI. You will have to bear with me, I am not a public speaker. Mr. Wilshaw: That's okay, we are an easy group. As. Sullivan: Pretty much my neighbors have summed up what we all discussed and talked about, but I do have a lot of questions. I have a printout of the new zoning map that y'all passed in August. According to your own map, we are an N1, strictly neighborhood, and on the petition, it wants us to be NM2, which we are not. Doesn't make any sense. How many zoning changes are they asking for? The property was purchased as commercial, C-2. They knew what they were buying. They knew what was going in all of the different business. They knew all of that, but now when other businesses are being vacated it seems more profitable to them to build an apartment complex. That is a nice October 19, 2021 30215 piece of property back there, yes, it is. But, for that many units it may very well cause a great deal of problems. Nobody has yet really touched upon the retention pond. The retention pond, this whole year, has been our savior because luckily those of us that are right in that area have not had the issues of flooding that other cities have had. Thousands upon thousands of dollars of damage because of the rain and who knows if this will happen again. You add in a three-story building full of concrete and their swimming pool and whatever else ... that alone is going to impact that retention pond. That retention pond is there for a purpose and if they have multi -families living there, are they going to perhaps build something around the berm to keep families away from it, because children are definitely curious. Will their little families be running out there and somebody is going to go into the retention pond and not come back out? What Vicki brought up about the berm is really a very stressful issue. It is true. It is one thing if you have your neighbors walk along and wave hi how are you. We all look out for one another, but when you see someone up there that is strolling and looking and strolling and looking, you feel like they are casing your home. I at least was happy to see, and I don't know if it will be true or not, but I would like them to do ... I don't know if I can ask for a promise or not, but a balcony... we have a hotel right down the street from us. People living there. Unfortunately, it is a little bit lower, but they can still look out into the yards. Those people have dealt with it for a very long time. We have the motel. Right next to that on the other side of the fitness center we have the hotel with the banquet center. People are in and out of there all the time. We want people to come to Livonia, but do you think that they are going to come to live back there next to Wal-Mart where they can look out and watch the Auto Zone or they can watch them loading and unloading the trucks behind Wal-Mart? Every year during the holiday's all of those big box stores bring their big cargo containers I guess you would call them, and they just line them up on that roadway where you are planning on having an in and out for the people for the school buses. I don't know if they have addressed the issue of fire hydrants. That is another concern. Really it is. Right now, our back wall is graffiti. People throw shopping carts. I don't expect any of that to change, but I am fearful that it will get worse. People living in that area during the middle of winter if they can't go to their swimming pool where they got to go, the mall is only open so many hours. Young families, I am not too sure of. You are talking one and two -bedroom apartments. That isn't really a family. That is maybe one or two people. You don't put kids in a one and two-family apartment normally unless it is lower rent. That isn't their vision. They say ... I shouldn't say they, but in the Livonia 21 it says that the October 19, 2021 30216 shaping of a city and planning for its future development should pIan on grouping, because having the same height, same architecture, the same business, the same residential, that is what is going to build our city. You could put all of those people in that building and they may go over to Plymouth and hang out over there and go to the restaurants over there, walk around over there, go to the parades and what have you, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to increase the revenue of Livonia. My biggest fear is Livonia has always been family oriented. Our neighbors look out for one another. I worry that we will have another influx of people leaving. We have had neighbors already that have sold their homes and have moved out because they are fearful. We all know that we can't stop progress and we want the city the flourish, but we want the city to be to flourish with us in mind because we are the ones that have been sitting there paying taxes and keeping properties... we are Livonia. We, the ones that have been there for years and years, we are Livonia. We want to see the city prosper, but not at our expense. I think that is al. I had a whole lot of notes, but like I said I am not really good at that. Mr. Wilshaw: You did fine, Ms. Sullivan. Just so you know, because we are at the zoning stage of this petition, we are not at the site plan stage, that is why you haven't seen some of the discussion around things like balconies and fire hydrants and some of those details. Those would be in that stage of the petition. Right now, we are just really looking at what is more appropriate for that place, that location. Is it commercial or is it residential? Ms. Sullivan: I have another question if I could? Mr. Wilshaw: Of course. Ms. Sullivan: I noticed on the new rezoning that the original petition was from a C-2 to an R-8. Mr. Wilshaw: Correct. Ms. Sullivan: And all of the sudden the R-8 is non-existent? Mr. Wilshaw: Correct. That is because the city has changed the entire zoning ordinance in the middle of this process. So, it was a major rewrite and the R-1 through R-8 and those different zoning classifications have been changed. Now, the NM2 is the appropriate similar zoning. Closest thing that we have. As. Sullivan: According to this map we are just an N1. October 19, 2021 30217 Mr. Wilshaw: For your... Ms. Sullivan: Our neighborhood is listed on that map as an N1, not NM2. Mr. Wilshaw: Correct. That is your neighborhood that is that zoning. The petitioner is asking to have their piece of their property, which is currently commercial, moved to NM2. Ms. Sullivan: They want their property... Mr. Wilshaw: Yes. They aren't rezoning your property; they are only rezoning their own. That is something that any property owner can do. If they have a piece of property and they wish to use it in a different way, they can come to us and petition to have that zoning changed. That is why we are here tonight. To see if what they are asking to do and to decide if that is appropriate or not and make a recommendation to City Council. We will see how things go. Ms. Sullivan: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: I hope that helps. Thank you, Ms. Sullivan. Good evening, sir. Merlyn Smith, 30039 Richland, Livonia, MI. I live ten houses from where the wall that is ... you know where the other side of the wall going to be the apartments. I have not received one notice about any of these meetings. I did make the Zoom meeting. I don't know the regulations of how far they go, but I think 10 houses should have been notified. The second meeting I couldn't make and so this is the third one, which the other two have been tabled. I don't know if we got a notice on why they were tabled. Long enough for them to change the resident eight to the NM whatever. Sounds kind of fishy, but anyhow... so, I am going to touch base on what was said. Commercial ... I don't believe any residential should be any commercial with any commercial property. The berm was put up so we wouldn't hear noise and you don't see it. Now they want to build something higher than the berm. That don't make sense. Okay. I am for progress, yes. Okay. If you want to change that zoning area, change it all. All of that to residential, which ain't going to happen. It is all about the money. Could I get the one schematic where they took a picture where we are not going to see much of the building? Am I allowed to do that? Mr. Wilshaw: Yeah, Mr. Taormina can pull that up. This is what is called a site line diagram. October 19, 2021 30218 Mr. Smith: Yeah, that one. The closer you get to something. I know you guys are kind of down and this is up, but if it is reversed, see down here I am not going to see much of you guys, buy you will see me. Mr. Wilshaw: We still see you. We got it. Mr. Smith: Right? So, that view is like useless. That view is useless. I live, like I said, ten houses away. So, I am farther away, and I am going to be in my living room. I am going to be able to see that building. It was supposed to be four, they knocked it down to three. I will even be able to see a two-story building. Right out my front window. I am ten houses away ... I don't know if you guys are familiar, but that road curves. With that , I just ask you to not pass it. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, sir. We appreciate that. Good evening. Anyone else wishing to speak? We have another member of the audience coming forward. Good evening, sir. Jeff Grad, 11325 Blackburn, Livonia, MI. Hello. Thanks for letting me talk. Just bringing a little bit different perspective. We talk so much about, you know, families first and ya know young families moving in. A perspective from a young family ... I have lived in Livonia for 34 years. I own a small business in Livonia. My parents live in Livonia. I have two young boys and one on the way that could potentially be going to Livonia Public Schools. So, you know, I think I am the perspective, and I am kind of the family that Livonia is hoping to attract. I can tell you right now if this had passed and this zoning had passed, which before I had been looking for a house I wouldn't have moved to where I live. I would have moved to Northville or Plymouth, ya know, which you know they might make that decision and you are going to lose out on a lot of great young middle-class families. I think those are the families that the city wants to attract and also maintain our long-time residents. There is that and you know when I was listening to Jeff Shostak talk, I almost thought it was comical. It doesn't seem like they did a lot of research. It doesn't seem like they are trying that hard. I feel like they don't think that have to try that hard. He said we base where we put our... decide on whether it is residential or commercial... two of the three things he said are almost laughable. He said we base it on what the residents say and what the current people living there want and we also base it on ... oh is it walkable.... you know to make a residential area, is this walkable. I am pretty sure that a Wal-Mart, a liquor store, a plasma donation center and a gym ... I am pretty sure its not really... between my old parking lot in between is not the definition October 19, 2021 30219 of walkable area. That was kind of ridiculous. The next thing is the whole idea of rezoning this property. I mean, why would we even consider rezoning this to residential? I mean... again, this ... the only reason they are doing this is because of the COVID, and big box stores obviously are... big box stores aren't moving in as much as they were before. More people are buying online, ya know. It is that and they are playing off the whole this Livonia 21 Vision, which I think over the last couple years... since it has been ... I started reading about it .... I think it is transitioned into something that it was originally... parts of this were not supposed to be. The idea, when I did those questionnaires, and it said what do you want future Livonia to be? Yeah, attract families and people are like, I love Plymouth and Northville. I love the idea of a downtown. Let's do these mini downtowns. So, you have all these people voting yes, I want these mini downtowns. Now, a mini downtown apparently has turned into putting in a multi -rise apartment building between a Wal-Mart and a Target. That is going to bring value to this city? I mean lets honestly look at each other and... is that really what we want? We are adding value to this city by doing that? That is a joke. I think it shows you ... we have a hundred... if my math is somewhat correct, I am a CPA, but it is hard doing math sometimes. Like 175 no's to 4 yes's. What are we doing here? I think that kind of speaks for itself. The residents don't want it and this is a rezoning. This is not residential. They should have thought about this when they bought the project. They are only fitting it to whatever they need to fit their financial portfolio and their financial mix to hit those profit numbers that they need. That is the only reason they are doing this or else they would have come with a plan from the beginning to make this a multi -use. To have the residential with the walkable ... a full walkable community, which is what the people want if we are going to progress into something that looks like a mini downtown. It is something with... yeah, high -density residential, but something that is walkable with bike trails and commercial built-in. We have other cities that have that and that adds value. Throwing in an apartment complex between a Wal- Mart and a Target and a liquor store and a plasma center doesn't add any value to the city. I just wanted to present that as a young family and you know a lot of other people that I talk to in my neighborhood, they feel the same way as me. They will probably move out if this goes... if this passes, I will probably too. It is unfortunate. I do own a business here and I have lived here my whole life. I am only 34, but I have lived here my whole life so...I just want you to keep in mind there aren't a lot of young families here at this meeting, but I have a lot of friends in Livonia, and I know a lot of people and every single person I have talked to feels this way. Let's just keep that in mind. Thank you. October 19, 2021 30220 Mr. Wllshaw: Appreciate your comments. Anyone else wishing to speak? If there is no one else... our audience is determining if they want to speak. Mr. Weldon, we will give you just a few moments. Mr. Weldon: One of the aspects that I wanted to bring up about what would fit in that area. Mr. Shostak has several restaurant aspects of his own. He has Jersey Mike, and I think he has the Mod Pizza and Del Taco. He could put some of those right in there. That is a perfect fit for him and his own business to fit in there. He should be thrilled to be able to say oh look at this area, I can ... then the residentials would have a lot closer view of this restaurants and frequent those. Now the other aspect of where he mentioned some side aspects about making it nice and green and things like that. Well, we have dealt with his promises before back when he wanted the electronic gaming center to draw the young kids in there. The residents opposed to that, and it still went through. When he did this current renovation of the Wonderland section, he envisioned all these big lots coming there, well, they didn't come. If he had taken and had the vision like they had in Detroit, yes you could make a little micro downtown, but then as the other person was mentioning, you had the similar architecture. You had the homes and businesses that fit. This is not a fit. This is an ad -hoc. The reason that the Livonia Venture 21 has changed as some have noticed its because of his input. His influence. It is changed to fit those properties that everybody is pushing for to say let's change it. Let's add these... what is now the only viable thing that he sees is apartment complexes. That is not viable for this. This is, as the Plymouth Road Development Authority envisioned, dedicated. It has a lot of the commercial businesses. Ford, GM, and all the other businesses that have been built up along that stretch. You don't just start throwing in because it is old. We have changed our definition of what Livonia is. No, we are still families first. This is what your guys need to look at and say is this really appropriate to jam this in as an ad -hoc and again you are going to have the school buses and the architecture issues and the water issues. The flooding. One other area that I didn't bring up was... as close as those are, and you have that many units, there has been a lot of fires of apartments that have been reported in the news over the past couple years. One in particular they just showed and I was going to bring it here. They showed how this went up in nothing flat. With the way the berm is and again one of his promises when he built this current innovation of Wonderland, the berm was going to be 12 feet tall and was going to have those trees alternating on both sides, well he neglected this whole section. It isn't 12-feet, it is more like 9 to 10-feet. We always have to call to have it serviced to have the October 19, 2021 30221 weeds cut down. Well, we have these scrawny looking trees in that section where he is now going to propose let's do next ... well, he never follows through with his promises. When they moved the movie theatre in there... oh, we won't have showings in there after 10 p.m. Well, no, it's two in the morning we still had kids out there with car alarms and booze and bottles going on. So, really think about changing this from commercial, which the Plymouth Road Development Authority has dedicated their plans to. They did not interject residential in there. This is all strictly for that, so you are trying to mix something in now or he is trying to mix it in. Again, because of his profit where he is looking...I need some money coming in. As residents, we need some peace and stability and again, throwing in over a hundred plus units into that one little area that most people would not want to just say I live in that section between Wal-Mart and (inaudible) not going to be attractive to them. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you. With no one else to speak on this from our audience, I am going to go back to our petitioner and ask if they would like to address anything that they have heard this evening. There has been some comments made about traffic and infrastructure and so on, if you want to address any of those, you are welcome to. Mr. Ponton: Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think from a big picture perspective we at Stonefield Engineering and Design and our firm has gone through a number of different communities throughout the nation and within the last five to seven years, I would say trying to introduce this new concept of mixed development that looks a little bit different than what people are used to and nine out of ten it is typically controversial. So, we are not really surprised with what we are hearing here today, but we do think over time if the residents give us the opportunity to meet with them and have some community meetings and discussions and potentially do some research on these types of developments that we may be able to change their opinion over time, although we know it is an uphill battle. I think to touch on a couple of the points... safety, one of the main concerns and you can hear the residents up here ... I am sure it doesn't make any of us feel good to hear that someone is walking back and forth on a berm or that someone is sleeping in a sleeping bag. What our professional review is of this is that that typically happens when you have an area of a project that is undeveloped. Where you have a place that someone can loiter, where you have a place that trucks can idle that is not necessarily monitored, but we do think that by bringing activity into the neighborhood by bringing in a community... you hear people speak and they say they love our neighbors, and the businesses, you know, they're loud and trucks October 19, 2021 30222 are back there and they are rumbling and where they store the pallets .... what we are trying to do it make people understand that we are bringing in more high quality neighbors and more high quality community. There has been some conception in the past of what types of people live in apartments and maybe some misunderstandings, but if you look at all of the studies and the recent trends, millennials are renting at a higher rate than they are purchasing. Baby boomers are renting at a higher rate than purchasing another home once they get to be an empty nester. I think that part of the family first and bringing families to Livonia is bringing young professionals when they get their first job for the first couple of years and then they start to live in the city and get to be a part of the community and make friends and frequent the businesses. Then, over time, they do want to move into a bigger home or have more space that they do stay in the community of Livonia. In terms of infrastructure, nine and a half times out of ten, this use that we are proposing, multi -family, is going to be lower intensity in almost every aspect... Traffic, utilities, everything across the board than some big box users and what is permitted here by right. We would be happy to provide those studies, but we do think that there is also benefit, believe it or not, in terms of what we are proposing as opposed to what is permitted here by right. We do try a lot of times, we do understand that this has been a green and undeveloped piece for a number of years and we understand that residents and neighbors and everybody gets used to that and they want it to remain, but I do think sometimes what we are trying to convey and what I have seen in some scenarios is that a three-story hotel is permitted by right within 75-100 feet of that property. Big box retail is permitted. So, the perspectives that we are showing and some of the comparisons that we are making is what this could be under the current zoning classification and what it could be under the new zoning classification. Typically, what you see is greedy developers as people want to say go in front of a commission and it is typically, they are trying to change residentially zoned properties into commercially zoned properties. When the developer is willing to restrict the uses on his sites to restrict restaurant, to restrict retail, or restrict hotel, these things would no longer be permitted by right under the new zoning classification. That is something that we want the residents to understand. Although we see and may agree that it may not be the perfect fit for mixed use at this exact point in time, it is the first step. Potentially bringing another mixed -use development next door when a tenant may leave and then reshaping and having some adaptive reuse of some of the other buildings. In terms of the view, we did another perspective because I think one of the gentlemen wasn't too big on the October 19, 2021 30223 view ... the perspective that we provided. We did provide another view in the packet. It would be from the apartments to the back yards of the houses. If you would like to share that with the residents. It is part of the presentation that you have to show the perspective. It is important to remember that the Wal-Mart building is about 37 feet at its highest point, but it is 140 feet away. We are going to be 300 feet to the property line. So, from the property line to the windows of the home, you have another estimated 40 to 60 feet. So, you are 350 feet away. Most of them have their garages in their rear. So, we do think that the perspectives that we provided are very realistic. If you look at the line of sight provided in those, as well as we are very confident that that is what people would see. Mr. Wilshaw: You are correct that there is in our packet a perspective offered from the third -floor apartment window to the residential property. I believe that is the same diagram that is being shown on the screen. That is a perspective from a third -floor apartment back toward the berm area. Thank you. Mr. Ponton: I think with those being said and there are any other questions we could address; we would be happy to do that. The one thing that I think... so, the R-8 zoning actually allowed for much taller buildings than the multi -family zoning prior to the switch. I do think that if I had to pick this apart as a resident, the one thing that I would say that is more beneficial in the NM2 than the C-2 is that the... and it was brought up here tonight, is that the NM2 allows for four -stories, where as the C-2 allows for three -stories. I think what we are proposing, three -stories, we are not planning on changing that and if it would give the residents some comfort, we would be happy to make that as a condition of our rezoning moving forward, just so there is a guarantee on the record for the residents. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ponton. Yes, you are correct that as this changed and because of the length of time this has taken and us changing the zoning ordinances, we did go through a process of looking at the differences between the R-8 zoning and the NM2. There are some aspects in which the zoning allowed, the zoning change allowed for to be more restrictive and other aspects that allowed it to be less restrictive. It sort of balanced. There is ... we did review those changes in our study meeting to understand, so that all of us understand what those changes were. I just wanted you to note that. Is there any questions from any of our commissioners for our petitioner before we move forward, since he is at our podium and willing to answer? October 19, 2021 30224 Mr. Ventura: You mentioned winning the hearts and minds of the adjacent neighborhood, which I think is an excellent idea. I have been looking at this plan for a couple of years. Over that period of time that you have been contemplating this development, how many meetings have you had with the neighborhood? Mr. Ponton; We have not met with the neighborhood. Mr. Ventura: None? Mr. Ponton: That is accurate. Mr. Ventura: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions? I don't see any other questions for our petitioner. Thank you, Mr. Ponton. At this point I believe I can close the public hearing and a motion would be in order from our commission. On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Smiley, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-53-2021 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 19, 2021, on Petition 2020-08-01-06 submitted by Middlebelt Plymouth Venture, L.L.C, pursuant to Section 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, requesting to rezone parts of the properties at 29707 & 30273 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middle Belt Road and Milburn Avenue in the Northeast 'Y4 of Section 35, from C-2 (General Business) to NM2 (Neighborhood Multi -family), the Planning Commission does hereby deny Petition 2021-08-01-06 for the following reasons: That the Petitioner has failed to affirmatively show that the proposed change of zoning to NM2 Multifamily Residential and the intended design and layout of the development as presented to the Planning Commission would be compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding residential neighborhoods. 2. That the design concept as presented by the Petitioner fails to achieve the goals and objectives of the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan which seeks to create a mixed -use development in which the apartments are integrated within the surrounding commercial land uses. October 19, 2021 30225 3. That the plan to construct two (2) very large, three-story apartment buildings, each containing approximately 100 dwelling units, is contrary to the goals and objectives of the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan which recommends high density residential in buildings that have a residential scale and character by creating smaller buildings close to streets and in smaller blocks to establish a walkable pedestrian environment with better connectivity to the surrounding area. 4. That development of multifamily residential on the subject site pursuant to the standards and guidelines as set forth in Section 5.04, Form -Based Development Option in Commercial Districts, would achieve the desired outcome of creating a mixed -use development that is consistent with the Livonia Vision 21 Master Plan and that integrates multifamily housing with the existing surrounding commercial land uses. 5. That the proposed change of zoning is inconsistent with the established pattern of development in the surrounding area and would adversely alter the character of the neighborhood, and 6. That the proposed zoning and use is contrary to the purposes, goals and objectives of the Zoning Ordinance, which seek to ensure compatibility and appropriateness of uses so as to enhance property values and to create and promote a more favorable environment for neighborhood use and enjoyment. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 and 13.15 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Taormina: Just a point of clarification. I think it was inadvertently said that it was R-8 as opposed to NM2 in the opening sentence. You want to confirm that to be correct. Ms. Smiley: In the first line it says to from C-2 to R-8. Mr. Wilshaw: Correct. This would be a denial from C-2 to NM2. You are okay with that Mr. Ventura? Mr. Ventura: Yes. October 19, 2021 30226 Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with a denying resolution. ITEM #2 PETITION 2021-09-02-17 rgas USA, L.L.C. Ms. Smiley, Acting Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2021-09-02-17 submitted by Airgas USA L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.42 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, to develop and operate an outdoor storage yard for cylinders containing industrial, medical and specialty gases at 30441 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middle Belt and Merriman Roads in the Northwest /4 of Section 35. Mr. Taormina: This is a request by Airgas USA to operate an outdoor storage yard for gas cylinders. This property is on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middle Belt and Merriman. This map shows the zoning of the site and the surrounding area. The property is roughly 1.64 acres in area. It has 172 feet of frontage on Plymouth Road and a depth of 414 feet. The zoning, as you can see, is C-2 (General Business). The building on this property was most recently occupied by Viscount Pools. The front of the site contains a one-story, roughly 6, 000 square foot, commercial building. Directly behind this building is an unstriped asphalt paved area that in enclosed by an existing fence. It is within this fenced in area where the petitioner would like to have their outdoor storage take place. The remaining back section of the property, as you can see from the aerial photograph, is undeveloped and consists primarily of natural vegetation. To the east, west, and north are commercial uses that front along Plymouth Road. To the south there are single-family homes. The proposed outdoor storage yard measures roughly 11,094 square feet. It has dimensions of 129 feet by 86 feet. The area would be used to storage a variety of gas cylinders. The gas cylinders would include oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, argon, propane, and acetylene, of which are all noted on the plan. Vehicle access from the parking lot is provided via a sliding gate that is located on the west side of the storage area. The undeveloped portion of the site backs up to the single-family residences. The distance between the storage yard and the adjacent residential district is roughly 225 feet. Along the south property line the site contains trees, shrubs, and other vegetation. There is not a masonry screen wall. Instead, the adjoining residential properties contain a variety of fences. For commercial outside storage, the zoning ordinance requires that all such areas be enclosed with a six-foot high cyclone fence or other suitable means. Portions of the October 19, 2021 30227 existing fence contain barbed wire, which is prohibited, and the petitioner has agreed to remove. Staff also recommends that the cyclone fence along the south side of this storage area be replaced with six-foot high vinyl privacy fence. In terms of lighting, the storage area would be illuminated at night using LED wall packs mounted on the south side of the building. They are shown here in these photographs. The floor plan shows a large sales area, workstations, manager office, customer service area, parts and stock room, staff lounge, and restrooms. Only about one-fourth of the building would be used for customer display and sales. For that reason, it only requires 28 parking spaces, and the site provides 30 parking spaces. Parking is adequate. The latest plan shows the dumpster location here in the southwest corner of the parking lot. The details, unfortunately, show partial footings for the enclosure. We have confirmed with the Inspection Department that they will require full depth continuous footings for the three sides of the enclosure that contain masonry, which is something that would be handled at the time of permitting, but we have included that in the prepared approving resolution. There are no other building modifications shown. For signage, they are allowed one wall sign not to exceed 74 square feet in area on the north side of the building that faces Plymouth Road. A permit has been pulled from a sign contractor to install a 69 square foot sign. We do note, however, that a second sign has been placed on the west side of the building that is painted on the wall. The Department doesn't necessarily object to second sign, but it cannot be painted on the building. That will have to be removed and any new wall sign on that side of the building will have to be approved by the Zoning Board of Appeals. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated September 21, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time. The parcel is assigned the address of #36163 Plymouth Road. The existing building is currently serviced by public water main and sanitary sewer, as well as private storm sewer. The submitted drawings do not indicate any modifications to the existing leads, and we do not believe there will be any further impacts to the existing systems. It should be noted that the developer may be required to obtain a permit from the Michigan Department of Transportation (MOOT), should any work occur within the Plymouth Road right-of-way." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next October 19, 2021 30228 letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 30, 2021, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site plan submitted in connection with 30441 Plymouth Rd. We have no objections to this proposal with the following stipulations: Provide a "Knox Box" (fire department after -hour key box) affixed to the address side of the structure that contains a master key for the building as well as keys to the rear fenced in storage area. Code reference: 2015 IFC 506.1 Where required. Where access to or within a structure or an area is restricted because of secured openings or where immediate access is necessary for life-saving or fire -fighting purposes, the fire code official is authorized to require a key box to be installed in an approved location. The key box shall be of an approved type listed in accordance with UL 1037, and shall contain keys to gain necessary access as required by the fire code official. All storage of gas products onsite must meet all applicable NFPA and IFC standards. Note: This has been addressed and agreed upon by ownership." The letter is signed by Greg Thomas, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 23, 2021, which reads as follows: `9 have reviewed the plans in connection with the petitions. I have the following concerns to the proposals. From a public safety perspective, l have concerns with the storage of gas cylinders in close proximity to the residents that back up to the petitioner's property. Will there be stipulations in place as to how far the gas cylinders need to be kept away from the residential area? In the event of a fire or accident is the safety of the neighboring residents going to be in jeopardy? Perhaps an explosive expert should be consulted or Livonia Fire Department Hazardous Material specialist be consulted regarding the possible dangers."The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated October 12, 2021, which reads as follows: " Pursuant to your request, the above referenced Petition has been reviewed. There is a portion of the existing fence that is in poor condition and installed against another fence. The double fence should be removed and any dilapidated fencing shall be repaired or replaced. This Department has no further objections to this Petition." The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated September 23, 2021, which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated September 29, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's October 19, 2021 30229 Office has reviewed the name and addresses connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no taxes due, Therefore / have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Are there any questions of the Planning Director? Ms. Smiley: They are already operational, correct? Mr. Taormina: Airgas does occupy the building. That is correct. With a very limited use of the rear storage area. Ms. Smiley: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Ventura. Mr. Ventura: Mr. Taormina, in the write-up here,...) am have a problem navigating here...I can't find it, but in here it says somewhere that the cylinders are non-flammable. Mr. Taormina: Yeah, I think that was a... Mr. Ventura: So, that is the cylinders themselves, but not the contents? Mr. Wilshaw: Right. The cylinders are not flammable, but the things in them may be flammable. Mr. Ventura: Right. So, we do have flammable and/or explosive gases in cylinders outside the building? Mr. Taormina: Yes, I would think propane would qualify. Mr. Ventura: I was just making sure. Mr. Wilshaw: That is a good point to make. I think there is a combination, as we discussed at the study meeting...we will talk to the petitioner when they come up. There was a combination of non-flammable gases, oxygen and other items and then also some flammable gases, the acetylene. Mr. Taormina: I believe the Fire Marshal has full knowledge of all the types of materials that will be stored there. Mr. Ventura: It's in there. October 19, 2021 30230 Mr. Wilshaw: I think there was some kind of requirement that they keep them separated as well, the flammable and the non-flammable sections if I recall in the plan. Any other questions for our planning staff? If not, our petition is in the audience. You are welcome to come forward and introduce yourselves. Good evening. Natalie Jackman, 30441 Plymouth Road, Livonia, MI. We are excited to have moved into the City of Livonia and are in operation there. We relocated from the downtown Plymouth area and are happy to be on Plymouth Road in a much higher traffic area. I am accompanied by Michael Paul, our VP of Safety and Compliance, and Michael Miler, our local safety manager. I hope they can address some of your concerns regarding safety and questions regarding the gases. We are requesting the waiver -use approval to store our high-pressure cylinders inside the fenced in area. We are willing to accommodate the fencing requirement of privacy fence along the back, as well as removal of the barbed wire and installation of the dumpster enclosure with the required footings. We have years of experience and training for our associates to keep ourselves and the public safe. We are happy to address any of your questions. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Jackman. Unfortunately, I am sure you saw the audience and you thought they were all for you, but they all left. Ms. Jackman: Relieved to see that they are not. Mr. Wilshaw: It is going to be a pretty quiet crowd here. Are there any questions for our petitioner? Ms. Smiley: Did you hear what they said about the sign on the side of the building? Ms. Jackman: I did. It was painted on. I did not realize that was not allowed by the city. We were actually thinking about developing that wall into a mural if it is also allowed. We will have it painted over and request additional signage on the side of the building. As. Smiley: Great. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. There are some council members I believe that like murals, so that may be an option when you get to City Council. Mr. Taormina: We will save that for another day. October 19, 2021 30231 Mr. Bongero: I just had something to add. I went around and drove around to some of your competitors to see what they are doing. They all store in an outside... in an enclosed ... a fenced in...you have a lot bigger rear yard than all of them that I saw. Most of them have a lot smaller area and all the tanks were condensed. It seems like you have a lot of room. It is a nice set up. Ms. Jackman: Correct. We have plenty of space to separate them even further. Our requirement on the flammables to keep them away from the high-pressure cylinders is 25 feet on all sides, but we can absolutely move them further if need be, we definitely have the space. Mr. Bongero: Nice feature, yeah. Thanks. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions or comments from our commissioners? If not, is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or against this item? I don't think so. Ms. Jackman, is there anything else you would like to say before we make our decision? Ms. Jackman: Nope. Thank you for your time. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you for being here. With that I will close the public hearing and a motion would be in order. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-54-2021 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 19, 20213 on Petition 2021-09-02-17 submitted by Airgas USA L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval pursuant to Section 6.42 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, to develop and operate an outdoor storage yard for cylinders containing industrial, medical and specialty gases at 30441 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Middle Belt and Merriman Roads in the Northwest '% of Section 35, the Planning Commission does hereby recommend to the City Council that Petition 2021-09-02-17 be approved subject to the following conditions: That the Site Plan, labeled Sheet No. SP1.01, dated October 8, 2021, as revised, prepared by Scott Monchnik & Associates, Inc., is hereby approved and shall be adhered toI October 19, 2021 30232 That all outside storage of gas cylinders shall be restricted to the confined area behind the building, as shown on the approved site plan. Storage within this area shall be limited to properly secured gas cylinders and no more than two (2) vehicles. Any changes in the location and extent of the outdoor storage yard shall first be approved by the Planning Commission, 3. That a six (6) foot -high vinyl privacy fence shall replace the existing chain link fence along the south side of the outdoor storage yard to help shield the materials and activities from the adjacent residences. 4. That there shall be no outdoor storage of disabled or inoperative equipment and vehicles, scrap material, debris or other similar items either within or outside of the designated storage area. 5. All storage of gas products onsite must meet all applicable fire codes as required by the City of Livonia Fire Marshal. 6. That the hours of operation of this business shall be limited as follows: Mondays through Fridays, 7:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., and Saturdays, 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. That a building permit shall be required for the dumpster enclosure which shall contain full, continuous footings and shall be constructed of building materials that complement the building. The enclosure gates shall be of solid panel steel construction or durable, long-lasting solid panel fiberglass. That only conforming signage is approved with this petition, and any additional signage shall be separately submitted for review and approval by the Zoning Board of Appeals. That the existing painted wall sign on the west elevation of the building shall be removed and the wall returned to a condition satisfactory to the Inspection Department. That the petitioner shall have the option of requesting approval of a wall -mounted sign on this elevation, subject to variance(s) being granted by the Zoning Board of Appeals for excess sign area and excess number of wall signs on the building. 10. That unless approved by the proper local authority, any type of exterior advertising, such as promotional flags, streamers October 19, 2021 30233 or sponsor vehicles designed to attract the attention of passing motorists, shall be prohibited. 11. That the specific plan referenced in this approving resolution shall be submitted to the Inspection Department at the time the building permits are applied for; and 12. Pursuant to Section 19.10 of Ordinance #543, the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Livonia, this approval is valid for a period of one year only from the date of approval by City Council, and unless a building permit is obtained, this approval shall be null and void at the expiration of said period. FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Taormina: If the maker of the motion would allow the staff to draft the appropriate condition regarding the removal of the sign on the west elevation of the building. Mr. Long: So added. Mr. Taormina: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: And the supporter is okay with that as well? Mr. Bongero: Yes, absolutely. Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #3 PETITION 2021-09-02-18 Sun Spa Massage, L.L.C. Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2021-09- 02-18 submitted by Sun Spa Massage L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval, pursuant to Section 6.37 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, to operate a massage establishment at 36111 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Yale Avenue and Levan Road in the Northeast Y4 of Section 32. October 19, 2021 30234 Mr. Taormina: This is a request to operate a massage establishment. This is at the LA Plaza Shopping Center on the south side of Plymouth Road just east of Levan Road. This plaza is on a 4.8-acre parcel with about 480 feet of frontage on Plymouth Road and a depth of 380 feet. The zoning is C-2 (General Business). The L-shaped shopping center contains a gross floor area of approximately 36,350 square feet. The site provides a sufficient off-street parking, which is located mostly in the front yard between the building and Plymouth Road. Sun Spa would occupy an interior unit, which is located on the east side of the shopping center. The subject unit contains a floor area of just under 1,000 square feet. The general layout of the interior includes a check -in and waiting room, three client rooms, a kitchen, storage area, and a restroom. The zoning ordinance stipulates that no massage establishment can be located within 400 feet of another massage establishment. In this case, there are no other massage establishments within 400 feet of this proposed location. Another requirement of the zoning ordinance is that massage establishments cannot be within 400 feet of a school, place of worship, state licensed daycare facility, public library, playground, or public park. In this case, the Livonia Christadelphian Church on Parkdale is located approximately 350 feet from the shopping center property. Thus, for this massage establishment to be approved at this location, the City Council must waive this requirement. No other modifications to the building exterior are planned or in connection with this proposal. In 2019, it should be noted, that Tajii Relax requested waiver -use approval to operate a massage establishment at LA Plaza. The Planning Commission denied that request for several reasons, including non-compliance with the separation requirement from the church. The petitioner in that case chose not to appeal the decision to City Council. With that, Mr. Chairman, I can read out the departmental correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, please. Mr. Taormina: The first item is from the Engineering Division, dated September 20, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Engineering Division has reviewed the above referenced petition. We have no objections to the proposed waiver use at this time. The parcel is assigned a range of addresses of #36083 to #36175 Plymouth Road with the address of #36163 Plymouth Road being assigned to the overall parcel. The existing building is currently serviced by public water main and sanitary sewer, as well as private storm sewer. The submitted drawings do not indicate any modifications to the existing leads, and we do not believe there will be any further impacts to the existing systems. It should be noted that the October 19, 2021 30235 developer may be required to obtain a permit from the Michigan Department of Transportation (MOOT), should any work occur within the Plymouth Road right-of-way." The letter is signed by David W. Lear, P.E., Assistant City Engineer. The next letter is from the Livonia Fire & Rescue Division, dated September 30, 2021, which reads as follows: "This office has reviewed the site pIan submitted in connection with a request to construct a commercial building on property located at the above referenced address. We have no objections to this proposal." The letter is signed by Greg Thomas, Fire Marshal. The next letter is from the Division of Police, dated September 21, 2021, which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the plans in connection with the petitions. I have no objections to the proposals." The letter is signed by Scott Sczepanski, Sergeant, Traffic Bureau. The next letter is from the Inspection Department, dated October 12, 2021, which reads as follows: " Pursuant to your request, the above referenced Petition has been reviewed. 1. This petition is a change of use and would require that the space meet all current Michigan Building Codes including the Michigan Barrier Free Code. This will be addressed further at the time of our plan review if this project moves forward. This Department has no further objections to this Petition. " The letter is signed by Jerome Hanna, Director of Inspection. The next letter is from the Finance Department, dated October 5, 2021, which reads as follows: "I have reviewed the addresses connected with the above noted petition. As there are no outstanding amounts receivable, general or water and sewer, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Connie Kumpula, Chief Accountant. The next letter is from the Treasurer's Department, dated September 29, 2021, which reads as follows: "In accordance with your request, the Treasurer's Office has reviewed the address connected with the above noted petition. At this time, there are no outstanding amounts receivable for taxes. Therefore, I have no objections to the proposal." The letter is signed by Lynda Scheel, Treasurer. That is the extent of the correspondence. Mr. Wilshaw: Are there any questions of the Planning Director? Is the petitioner here this evening? We will need your name and address for the record please. Joshua Mickey, 36111 Plymouth Road, Livonia, MI. Me and my wife are small business owners in Saginaw, Michigan right now. So, we already have two massage therapy locations there. My wife has worked in this Westland area before we opened our small businesses, and we are looking to open a third essentially. I didn't really prepare anything to say. That is about all I have. October 19, 2021 30236 Mr. Wilshaw: That is okay. That is a good start. I think we can now springboard from your comments to our commissioners and see if there are any questions for our petitioner? Ms. Smiley: Were you aware of the proximity to the church and that's a problem? Mr. Mickey: No, not quite. Ms. Smiley: Okay. I think that is going to be problem for you, but okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. Mr. Long. Mr. Long: You said that your wife has experience with this and how many people will you have employed and what training experience will they have? Mr. Mickey: Sure. It will probably be my wife to start. We have current employees in our current locations, so when we start up it will probably just be my wife to see how the clientele is and how the business is going and then we will consider employing more as we go. Mr. Long: What kind of training or licensing do the employees have? Mr. Mickey: My wife has a state licensure for massage therapy and obviously we require that for any employee that we have. Mr. Long: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Long. Any other questions? Ms. Smiley: Now you said that you have establishments in Saginaw and Westland? Mr. Mickey: No. We have two in Saginaw. I mentioned that my wife had worked in Westland area before employed. Our two locations are in Saginaw, Michigan. As. Smiley: Are you moving to Livonia or...? Mr. Mickey: No, ma'am. My wife would probably live here for a while to start the business and then she would probably move back to Saginaw once we establish. October 19, 2021 30237 Ms. Smiley: How many employees do you have at your two establishments in Saginaw? Mr. Mickey: We have two. My wife and two others. Ms. Smiley: Then she is going to leave...leave that one and move down here? Mr. Mickey: Right, depending on how the business goes, we may employ more where we are at or employ more here, just depends on how busy we get. Ms. Smiley: How did you pick Livonia? You know there is a few massage establishments in Livonia now. Why did you pick that one? Mr. Mickey: My wife spoke to several different locations. She is the one that picked this location. She liked the layout. It seemed to already be set up that way. We wouldn't have to make any modifications to the interior like enclosures for different rooms. It was kind of, I don't want to say arbitrary, but she liked the layout and the location. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Did you know it was denied before? Mr. Mickey: We didn't. We were told later after we started the process. Ms. Smiley: So, you haven't rented or any...moved ahead with this location, have you? Mr. Mickey: No. We are waiting completely to move forward with the landlord there until we get this decision made. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. Mr. Bongero. Mr. Bongero: So, you are just starting off. You don't have any clientele base at all. You are just coming in... Mr. Mickey: So, one of the reasons that my wife wanted to establish a business here in this area is since she worked in the Westland area, she does have some clientele base already that she can draw from. Mr. Bongero: Gotcha. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Alright. Thank you. Any other questions? No other questions. is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or October 19, 2021 30238 against this item? So, Mr. Mickey, your intention...I just want to quickly ask you ... your wife is going to come down to this area, get the business started is your proposal, and then eventually would get it established and probably relocate back up to your sort of home base in the Saginaw area, would she then have one of her employees become a manager to manage the location? Mr. Mickey: That would be the intention, yes. Mr. Wilshaw: Alright, very good. That was the only question that I had. Any other comments from anybody else? Mr. Taormina: Just a note that a new data was submitted, and I am not sure but I believe that it was placed in the packets, but just to confirm that you are aware that the layout was modified. I believe the intent is to show that the client rooms that were previously shown having doors would now be left open and maybe you want to confirm that with the petitioner. Mr. Wilshaw: That is a good question. Mr. Mickey, do you want to speak to the interior layout of the... Mr. Mickey: Right, that was the intention. Essentially, I discussed with one individual that the doors would probably be a problem for various reasons. I had saw no problem with removing the doors and having something more like a curtain there. I feel like it is necessary to have something there just for customer privacy. I don't see a problem with just changing it to curtains which was a suggestion that was made to me. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay, very good. Thank you. I am sure you are aware that there is some concern over massage establishments. Mr. Mickey: I am aware. Mr. Wilshaw: What could happen in those rooms. I think this strikes a nice balance to allow some privacy without being too private. So, if there is no other questions or comments... Mr. Bongero: Are you offering just massage or are you offering other services? Mr. Mickey: No, just table massages with oil. That is what we are doing. Mr. Wilshaw: Okay. Any other comments or questions? Mr. Ventura: So, how do you go about determining that the market for your service...) understand that your wife had some clients in October 19, 2021 30239 Westland and that they might migrate up to this location, but once she leaves, how do you know there is a population out there that is seeking this service? Is there a study that you do or is there an association that you belong to that tell you that this spot over here is a hot bed for massage? How do you do that? Mr. Mickety: Right. wilily wife actually...we started our businesses actually fairly recently, within the past six to seven months, so she still has some clientele that a couple of them actually come up to our locations in Saginaw because they feel comfortable with her, and we feel like that should carry over into the current location here in Livonia just to start things up. We expect that the particular signage we have, and we would also use here, we find it rather attractive. I think with a high -traffic area like Plymouth Road advertisement would take care of itself, so in many respects we aren't too worried about just having walk-ins to start. We found that it is actually quite effective even in Saginaw where we are at. Mr. Ventura: Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions or comments? If not, then a motion would be in order. Approving motion made by Mr. Bongero. The motion failed due to lack of support. On a motion by Long, seconded by Ventura, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-55-2021 RESOLVED, That pursuant to a Public Hearing having been held by the City Planning Commission on October 19, 20211 on Petition 2019-09-02-18 submitted by Sun Spa Massage L.L.C. requesting waiver use approval, pursuant to Section 6.37 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance, to operate a massage establishment at 36111 Plymouth Road, located on the south side of Plymouth Road between Yale Avenue and Levan Road in the Northeast % of Section 32.the Planning Commission does hereby deny Petition 2021-09-02-18 for the following reasons: That the petitioner has failed to comply with all general standards and requirements as set forth in Sections 1.02 and 13.13 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance. That the proposed use fails to comply with the Zoning Ordinance standard set forth in Section 6.37(3), which specifies that no massage establishment shall be located within four hundred feet (400') of a church. October 19, 2021 30240 3. That the petitioner has not adequately established that there is a need for the proposed use in this shopping center or the immediate area. 4. That the petitioner has not sufficiently demonstrated that the proposed use would be compatible to and in harmony with the surrounding uses in the area; and 5. That the proposed use objectives of the Zoning things, are intended appropriateness of uses. is contrary to the goals and Ordinance which, among other to ensure suitability and FURTHER RESOLVED, That notice of the above hearing was given in accordance with the provisions of Section 13.13 of Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Long, Smiley, Ventura, NAYS: Bongero, Wilshaw ABSENT: McCue, Caramagno ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. Mr. Wilshaw: The petitioner will have 10 days in which to appeal the decision in writing to City Council if you would like to do that. ITEM #4 PETITION 2019-12-08-16 Ali Hamouch (Shell) Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2019-12- 08-16subrnitted by Ali Hamouch requesting aone-year extension of all plans in connection with a proposal to construct an addition and remodel the interior and exterior of the existing gas station (Shell) at 33411 Six Mile Road, located on the southwest corner of Six Mile and Farmington Roads in the Northeast'% of Section 16. Mr. Taormina: This is a request to extend site plan approval to the Shell Gas Station at Six Mile and Farmington Roads. This was approved originally by Council in March 2020 and by the Zoning Board of October 19, 2021 30241 Appeals in September 2020. It involves a one-story 518 square foot addition to the existing gas station building that would occur on the west side of the building, located here. The reason the petitioner is asking for the extension is because due to COVID and a shortage of supplies, as well as an inability to hire a contractor, the project has been delayed. So, he is asking for the one-year extension. I believe Mr. Hamouch is in the audience. There he is. Mr. Wilshaw: Yes, thank you. Good evening, Mr. Hamouch. Ali Hamouch, 33411 Six Mile Road, Livonia, MI. Thank you, so much. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there anything you would like to add, or did Mr. Taormina steal your thunder? Mr. Hamouch: Thank you, Mr. Taormina, for explaining. So, basically it is a shortage of supply material and also the contractors are... have a pile of work and need to be finished. We were moving forward and then the pandemic hit and you guys can tell there was a gap between the City Council approval and the Zoning Board of Appeals approval until September. Until then when all the restrictions were actually lifted, contractors have to actually stand up and do their work as well. Keep up with their work where they were behind and that also lagged the project and currently, they have also shortage ... we have national shortage of supply material plus labor as well. They are behind. Mr. Wilshaw: I have heard something about that. Mr. Hamouch: I wanted to do it today before tomorrow, honestly. Mr. Wilshaw: Very good. Appreciate those comments. I think we all understand that it is going on right now. Is there any questions or comments from any of our commissioners? Mr. Bongero: Mr. Hamouch, when are you going to start? Mr. Hamouch: As soon as I can start. Mr. Bongero: Do you have guys lined up now? Mr. Hamouch: I am talking to the people, believe it or not, day by day calling contractors. I want to start as soon as spring, because this will involve pouring concrete and it has to be like after the wintertime because of the... October 19, 2021 30242 Mr. Bongero: Yeah, I know. Its tough out there. Mr. Hamouch: I want to start sooner than later. Mr. Bongero: it would be nice if you get it going. Mr. Homouch: Yeah, absolutely. Mr. Wilshaw: Excellent. Thank you, Mr. Bongero. Any other questions or comments? Is there anybody in the audience that wishes to speak for or against this item? Seeing no one coming forward, I think we are all set, Mr. Hamouch. We will go to our commission and get a motion on the floor. Thank you for coming this evening. Hold on for a moment and we will see how things go. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-56-2021 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend to City Council that Petition 2019-12-08-16 submitted by Ali Hamouch, requesting a one-year extension of all plans in connection with a proposal to construct an addition and remodel the interior and exterior of the existing gas station (Shell) at 33411 Six Mile Road, located on the southwest corner of Six Mile and Farmington Roads in the Northeast ''% of Section 16 be approved subject to the following conditions: 1. That the request for aone-year extension of waiver use approval by Ali HamOUCh, in a letter dated September 8, 2021, is hereby approved, and 2. That all conditions imposed by Council Resolution #85-20 in connection with Petition 2019-22-08-16 shall remain in effect to the extent that they are not in conflict with the foregoing condition. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. It will go on to City Council with an approving resolution. ITEM #5 PETITION 2021-08-SN-02 Stark Road Holdings (LAD) As. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Petition 2021-08- SN-02 submitted by Stark Road Holdings L.L.C., on behalf of the Livonia Athletic District (LAD), requesting approval pursuant to Section 11.08 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance to install multiple wall signs to the multi -purpose recreational facility at October 19, 2021 30243 14255 Stark Road, located on the west side of Stark Road between Schoolcraft Road and Lyndon Avenue in the Southeast /4 of Section 21. On a motion by Ventura, seconded by Bongero, and unanimously adopted, it was #10-57-2021 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission on October 19, 2021, on Petition 2021-08-SN-02 submitted by Stark Road Holdings L.L.C., on behalf of the Livonia Athletic District (LAD), requesting approval pursuant to Section 11.08 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance to install multiple wall signs to the multi -purpose recreational facility at 14255 Stark Road, located on the west side of Stark Road between Schoolcraft Road and Lyndon Avenue in the Southeast % of Section 21, does hereby remove the item from the table. Mr. Wilshaw: Mr. Taormina, are there any updates that you wanted to provide? Mr. Taormina: Only what we discussed at the study meeting. The changes that the petitioner made both to the type of signs that are being installed on the building, from painted signs on the brick to aluminum signs mounted to the brick, as well as the reduction in the sizes of the several signs. I won't go over all of the details, but overall, the result is a net reduction of about 153 square feet in sign area. The one issue that I did hear at the study meeting and is reflected in the prepared resolution is related to the LAD sign located near the center of the east elevation and the desire is to have that downsized slightly. The current plans, as revised, show this sign being 8'3" x 8'3'. We are suggesting that this be changed to 6' x 6' in order to address the concern of the Planning Commission. Mr. Wilshaw: Fair enough. Thank you, Mr. Taormina. Our petitioner is hiding behind the podium. Good evening. I thought he ran off on us. He heard all of those other denials and said I am out of here. Good evening, sir. Is there anything else you would like to add to what we have already discussed? Joseph Deverteuil, 14255 Stark Road, Livonia, MI 48154. Yeah, I would like to reiterate our goal and our hopes for our project. Our goal is to bring vibrant programming back to the community to fulfill what the Y was doing years ago but maintain the peaceful family center that was there. If you go there at 6 p.m. at night you see tons of families in that area on Ford Field and Eddie Edgar and we would like to maintain that and bring some life back to the building. The building has been neglected and we will reverse that by creating a welcoming environment for those families and so forth. It is our October 19, 2021 30244 hope with this signage being passed that we can show that the former YMCA is not alive with the LAD. Mr. Wilshaw: Excellent. Thank you. Thanks for working with us on these changes so far to your sign package. I think we are getting closer to something that is a good fit for this property. It is a difficult one because our current zoning only allows for what 20 square feet of signage. It is a very small amount, so realizing that we need to have something more than that on that large of a building, but getting the right mix is always a challenge. If there is any questions or comments from any of our commissioners... Ms. Smiley: Were you going to bring us a sample or some pictures or something of the sign? Mr. Deverteuil: I do owe you a sample of the sign. I have yet to get that from the architect, so I will have that sent to you by tomorrow. Mr. Wilshaw: We don't have for now. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Mr. Wilshaw: That is always something that can go on to City Council too for them to see. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Mr. Wilshaw: Any other questions or comments? Mr. Ventura: I have to be honest with you and tell you that I don't support this. I am really mystified by the need for the amount of signage that you are showing. This is a residential and there are homes here and there is a school there and there are city parks there. It is not a commercial area, so the amount of traffic up and down the street are really people that are going to the parks and people going to their homes and people going to the schools. It is not a commercial area and if I felt that you had a lot of traffic up there, high traffic road like a main thoroughfare where signage could help the public find you and become aware of you and your operation, then I might be able to justify that, but where you are doesn't make any sense to me and compounding that is your ... so as I understand your operation, you are sub -leasing portions of the building to people that will operate businesses there... separate businesses within the total building, is that correct? Mr. Deverteuil: Correct. October 19, 2021 30245 Mr. Ventura: So, identifying the people that are in the building, if I am going there when I want to go play soccer or go there and want to see a physical therapist, I want to be sure that I am in the right place, so you have a directory sign there that is going to list all of the uses in the building, am I correct? Mr. Deverteuil: Correct. Mr. Ventura: You have made that smaller, which 1 would think would the more important part of your signage. So, I don't see how the signage is functioning for you. I really don't. I am thrilled that you are going to repurpose this building and I think you have a good concept from what I saw there, but I don't understand signage at all. I am not a supporter. I would like to see your tenants... the guys that are going to pay you rent to be there be more prominent. Nobody is going to go to LAD to do anything, they are going to go to the tenants in the building to do whatever they are going to do when they go there. Unless I am missing something, which I could very well be, but I am just being very honest with you and telling you that I don't get it. Mr. Deverteuil: If I may respond? Mr. Wilshaw: Please, go ahead. Mr. Deverteuil: We are tucked away, and we are in residential, yes. To attract potential clientele to go to the LAD, they are going for the athletic aspect, whether it is sport performance and rehabilitation, we are competing with he likes of St. Joes Sports Dome for instance, who has a humungous sign on the side of 1-275. For anyone to drive by and we are getting questions daily, what is this place going to be, where is the Y... if I am not mistaken, the Y did have two signs, and everyone is familiar with the Y nationwide. It has a brand that has been around for ages, and we are competing with that. We don't want to tarnish the Y, but we do want to make our footprint in the city as the LAD, and I think these changes we have proposed will definitely help. Mr. Ventura: Thank you for your response. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Mr. Ventura. Any other questions or comments? As. Smiley: My question is to Mark. What is this signage compared to the YMCA? It's just the Y. They cut it down to just the Y. October 19, 2021 30246 Mr. Taormina: I don't have the information on what the Y had previously. It was less than this, for sure, but they did have the monument sign I do recall. I do believe the monument sign in this case is being removed. Is that correct? Mr. Deve rteuil: That is correct. Mr. Taormina: Then maybe one on the other side of the building, the east side as I recall. It was limited, but they did have the monument sign. Ms. Smiley: Did you think about the monument sign at all? Mr. Deverteuil: Yes, so we are leveraging that in the future. Right now, we have a fabric sign there. Just with our rendering and so forth and that has sparked some interest, but again, we don't have a real brand that we are able to share with folks with just the monument sign. Ms. Smiley: I would think that a monument sign would serve you better. I think you are more likely to read a monument sign that you drive down that road than you are to try to read the building. Mr. Deverteuil: I understand. We have...we just installed new windows and so forth, and our hope with the new installation is to have people, instead of looking at the sign, look inside the building and see activity. Ms. Smiley: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Wilshaw: Thank you, Ms. Smiley. Any other questions or comments? I would ask if there is anyone in the audience wishing to speak, but there is no one in the audience, so we will skip that. If there are no further questions or comments from the commissioners, I will ask for a motion. On a motion by Long, seconded by Bongero, and adopted, it was #10-58-2021 RESOLVED, That the City Planning Commission does hereby recommend City Council that Petition 2021-OS-SN-02 submitted by Stark Road Holdings L.L.C., on behalf of the Livonia Athletic District (LAD), requesting approval pursuant to Section 11.08 of the Livonia Vision 21 Zoning Ordinance to install multiple wall signs to the multi -purpose recreational facility at 14255 Stark Road, located on the west side of Stark Road between Schoolcraft Road and Lyndon Avenue in the Southeast Y4 of Section 21, be approved subject to the following conditions: October 19, 2021 30247 1. That the Sign Plan identified as N2.01, dated September 10, 2021, prepared by submitted by Five -Eights, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to, except that the "LAD" sign on the east elevation of the building shall not exceed 36 square feet in area. 2. That the Lighting Plan identified as 1 of 1, dated August 18, 2021, prepared by Visual, is hereby approved and shall be adhered to. 3. That this approval is subject to the petitioner being granted variances from the Zoning Board of Appeals for excess number and area of signs and any conditions related thereto; and 4. That any additional signage shall come back before the Planning Commission and City Council for their review and approval. Mr. Wilshaw: Is there any discussion? A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Long, Smiley, Bongero, Wilshaw NAYS: Ventura ABSENT: McCue, Caramagno ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution ITEM #6 APPROVAL OF MINUTES 1,176th Public Hearings and Regular Meeting Ms. Smiley, Secretary, announced the next item on the agenda, Approval of the Minutes of the 1,176th Public Hearing and Regular Meeting held on Septermber21, 2021. On a motion by Smiley, seconded by Long , and unanimously adopted, it was #10-59-2021 RESOLVED, That the Minutes of 1,176'h Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held by the Planning Commission on September 21, 2021, are hereby approved. A roll call vote on the foregoing resolution resulted in the following: AYES: Long, Smiley, Bongero, Ventura, Wilshaw October 19, 2021 30248 NAYS: None ABSENT: McCue, Caramagno ABSTAIN: None Mr. Wilshaw, Chairman, declared the motion is carried and the foregoing resolution adopted. On a motion duly made, seconded and unanimously adopted, the 1,177h Public Hearings and Regular Meeting held on October 19, 2021, was adjourned at 9:19 CITY PLANNING COMMISSION Sam Caramagno, Secretary ATTEST: Ian Wilshaw, Chairman